Optimization in the neverending dungeon.

[Aldgar]

Savage progressions have been banned, unfortunately.

A Focused specialist transmuter wizard should have 3 2nd level spells to cast and 1 2nd level spell known(via precocious apprentice), so that's actually 150 minutes of adventuring.

If said wizard has at least 14 INT, that's 200 minutes.

So...a neraph wizard // warblade with iron will, reserves of strength, precocious apprentice as feats and spellgifted(transmutation) as trait could use alter self to assume the form of a Dwarf ancestor, gaining large size and +18 NA.

But how would the size increase from alter self interact with worn equipment? Would the equipment resize akin to enlarge person, or would the medium-sized equipment meld in the form, becoming nonfunctional, or would it drop at the feet of the caster?

[The_Mad_Linguist]

I thought it was only template and LA>1 savage progressions - that is, savage progressions can't be used to sidestep the racial restrictions

[Aldgar]

Savage progressions cannot be used to sidestep LA, even if it's only LA +1.

So, Neraphim would be the only +0 LA outsiders available.

[PhaedrusXY]

But how would the size increase from alter self interact with worn equipment? Would the equipment resize akin to enlarge person, or would the medium-sized equipment meld in the form, becoming nonfunctional, or would it drop at the feet of the caster?

All magic items except weapons and armor re-size to fit their wearer by default. You could just buy a large sized armor or weapon, if that's a problem.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

Savage progressions cannot be used to sidestep LA, even if it's only LA +1.

So, Neraphim would be the only +0 LA outsiders available.

Can I get a quote for that?  Google isn't turning up any rulings that are predicated on them as a whole being banned, instead of just virtually every variety of them being banned by the racial choice rules.  The arena rules listed don't nix the savage progressions...

[awaken DM golem]

Ghostwise halfling -> Mindsight works as thus:

Have ML 1 somehow, take the feat "Improved Speak without Sound", take the feat Mindsight.

So you're burning a race choice, a class choice and two feats for 20ft mindsight...

You can get ML 1 via any [Host] feat in CPsi, but other than doing this trick, the feat(s) don't do much else.
Undead vs. Mindsight ...

**

I think the only Psi-recharge set-up at level 1, is:
Warforged + Psiforged feat + Azure Talent feat (flaw) + Psycarnum Infusion feat (flaw) + Psion class
That'd get 3 powers, but the recharge is only out of combat, and is very slow. Possible surprised = dead.

[NiteCyper]

A Focused specialist transmuter wizard should have 3 2nd level spells to cast and 1 2nd level spell known(via precocious apprentice), so that's actually 150 minutes of adventuring.

If said wizard has at least 14 INT, that's 200 minutes.

So...a neraph wizard // warblade with iron will, reserves of strength, precocious apprentice as feats and spellgifted(transmutation) as trait could use alter self to assume the form of a Dwarf ancestor, gaining large size and +18 NA.

3 2nd-level spells to cast at level 1?

[The_Mad_Linguist]

Ghostwise halfling -> Mindsight works as thus:

Have ML 1 somehow, take the feat "Improved Speak without Sound", take the feat Mindsight.

So you're burning a race choice, a class choice and two feats for 20ft mindsight...

Don't greensnake nagas get telepathy?  They're LA+1, but the stat mods are pretty killer.

[Aldgar]

Savage progressions cannot be used to sidestep LA, even if it's only LA +1.

So, Neraphim would be the only +0 LA outsiders available.

Can I get a quote for that?  Google isn't turning up any rulings that are predicated on them as a whole being banned, instead of just virtually every variety of them being banned by the racial choice rules.  The arena rules listed don't nix the savage progressions...

Relevant quote:

How does LA work?
If your races has an LA of 1, it takes up one of the sides of the gestalt(you'd end up with Class1/LA1). After you level up, you progress as normal.

If the races has LA+Racial Hit Dice greater than 1, it may not be used. No, not even with racial progressions. Yes, that includes the ones in Savage Species and Libris Mortis.

Aasimar and Tieflings have an LA of +1, therefore, they "take up one of the side of the gestalt" and force a Class 1/LA 1 build. Savage progressions of Aasimar and Tieflings do not remove the LA, they merely delay it, and the rules are pretty clear that LA +1 races have to take the LA.


Greensnake naga is from OA, which is 3.0, which is banned.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

But RAW, you explicitly don't actually have to take all the levels of the web savage progressions.  So you take the LA+0 bits, and then just never take the LA+1 level. 

OA was updated to 3.5, IIRC.

[Aldgar]

This doesn't change the fact that Aasimar and Tieflings are LA+1 races, which trips the relevant sentence(...you'd end up with Class 1/ LA 1).

And the OA update was in a dragon magazine, which are banned aswell.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

But an aasimar without any levels of the savage progression HAS only zero LA.

[DavidWL]

note - I was told that nothing stacks with precocious apprentice, and you have to beat a CL check.  However, I was under the impression that when you leveled up, everything reset (spells per day, etc.).  So really, you just need to beat enough enemies in 50 minutes to level up, which should be doable ....

Also, while this makes you very defensively powerful in combat, you still need to be able to cope with misc other issues
- healing
- traps
- nice to have immunities
- the ability to have an offensive punch

So how the race / free feats / other side of the gestalt is spent seems rather important.  I'm leaning towards something like a warforged crusader with the feat that makes it an outsider (is that even possible?)

Best,
David

[The_Mad_Linguist]

Whole point of being a warforged is the advantages of the construct type.

Becoming an outsider is a bad idea.

[DavidWL]

Whole point of being a warforged is the advantages of the construct type.

Becoming an outsider is a bad idea.

You're right, of course.  But there must be some way to have the outsider type and keep a boatload of immunities.  Keeper comes to mind, but it is, alas, too high level.  For that matter, even necropolitan is too high level (and probably costs too much ...)

...

[NiteCyper]

even necropolitan is too high level (and probably costs too much ...)

If it were allowed, as no template but Dragonborn is.

[McPoyo]

Whole point of being a warforged is the advantages of the construct type.

Becoming an outsider is a bad idea.

Iirc, the type pyramid lists constructs and outsiders on the top tier, so the type wouldn't actually change.

[snakeman830]

Whole point of being a warforged is the advantages of the construct type.

Becoming an outsider is a bad idea.

Iirc, the type pyramid lists constructs and outsiders on the top tier, so the type wouldn't actually change.

Undead and outsiders, actually.

Seriously?  No templates but Dragonborn?  Seems to me this DM doesn't want people to succeed.

[McPoyo]

More likely he wants them to try to do it within a very narrowly controlled environment that he feels comfortable handling, considering all the things he's shooting down after they are pitched, and the relative imbalance of "broken" or "over the top" things allowed.

[bearsarebrown]

the relative imbalance of "broken" or "over the top" things allowed.

Is what makes me not want to bother with the dungeon. DMM is allowed but a template isn't?!