Author Topic: Optimization in the neverending dungeon.  (Read 23236 times)

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The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Optimization in the neverending dungeon.
« Reply #60 on: January 27, 2010, 04:08:27 PM »
DMM: persist on lesser vigor also works.
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PhaedrusXY

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Re: Optimization in the neverending dungeon.
« Reply #61 on: January 27, 2010, 04:12:21 PM »
DMM: persist on lesser vigor also works.
It's not legal. It's a touch range spell. Mass Lesser Vigor is a legal target for persist. The normal one isn't.

The 3.0 FAQ explicitly said Touch is not a valid range for a persistent spell, and the only thing that changed for persistent from 3.0 to 3.5 was the cost.
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
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[/spoiler]

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Optimization in the neverending dungeon.
« Reply #62 on: January 27, 2010, 04:16:00 PM »
Not in the neverending dungeon!

That is to say there are characters who persist lesser vigor.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2010, 05:00:16 PM by The_Mad_Linguist »
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NiteCyper

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Re: Optimization in the neverending dungeon.
« Reply #63 on: January 27, 2010, 04:58:30 PM »
PLEASE read the arena rules thread before suggesting stuff here. Their banlist is quite extensive(and the DM for neverending dungeon expanded on it, banning DMM-heighten, for example...after one made a theoretical build abusing reserve feats for infinite large earth elementals and 9d4 force needles).
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PhaedrusXY

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Re: Optimization in the neverending dungeon.
« Reply #64 on: January 27, 2010, 05:52:56 PM »
Not in the neverending dungeon!

That is to say there are characters who persist lesser vigor.
Bah, hogwash. Nerf crusaders but allow quasi-legal BS for clerics? What a tool.
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Optimization in the neverending dungeon.
« Reply #65 on: January 27, 2010, 08:57:43 PM »
Anyway, assuming that touch spells are valid for persist, what about a persistifier cloistered cleric (azurin variant)/Druid?

Planning :Extend Spell
Undeath :Extra turning
Azurin: Persist spell
Level 1: Extra turning
Flaw 1: Share soulmeld
Flaw 2: That one that shoots acid out of your mouth

3 + cha mod + 8 turn attempts.  Let's say 16 cha, for 14 turn attempts, or two persisted spells (we're dipping dread necromancer next level).
-Lesser Vigor
-Detect Magic

Are there any druid spells for persisting better than detect magic?
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NiteCyper

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Re: Optimization in the neverending dungeon.
« Reply #66 on: January 27, 2010, 09:16:46 PM »
Although I feel like I'm pitching the same idea over and over, I'm stating it once again because I think this is what I'd go with:

Beguiler (ShS) Factotum 1//Warlock 1
Darkstalker, Blend into Shadows, Font of Inspiration (default).
Glitterdust? Keen Intellect. For the hit to Hide, one'll have to tough it out.
Color Spray & pray? Shape Soulmeld (Planar Ward).
Healing? Dunno; get (Eternal?) Wands of Faith Healing or Tomb-Tainted Soul over the FoI, then dip DN next level? Or Martial Spirit abuse on Summon Swarm invocation.

Alternative: Human, Able Learner, Dragonfire Adept. Quick Reconnoiter.
Dip Swashbuckler (Arcane Stunt-ACF) 3 if you feel safe to, or Incarnate (if that gets you free soulmelds; for Mindsight)

I was thinking about it, and I realized: the Factotum is, by flavour, meant to be THE dungeoneer, no?
« Last Edit: January 27, 2010, 09:19:38 PM by NiteCyper »
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The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Optimization in the neverending dungeon.
« Reply #67 on: January 27, 2010, 09:26:05 PM »
You can't afford a wand at first level.  Max 1st level gold.
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bearsarebrown

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Re: Optimization in the neverending dungeon.
« Reply #68 on: January 27, 2010, 09:31:01 PM »
How many times are you going to Color Spray? How many times are you going to Glitterdust?

You need to handle 20+ encounters without rest, and most of the enemies will be waiting for you.

NiteCyper

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Re: Optimization in the neverending dungeon.
« Reply #69 on: January 27, 2010, 09:34:20 PM »
How many times are you going to Color Spray? How many times are you going to Glitterdust?

You need to handle 20+ encounters without rest, and most of the enemies will be waiting for you.
You don't seem to understand what I meant by those rhetorical questions.

addendum: 27-01-10, 16:36, -8 GMT, re: wands: Maybe I can craft one.

addendum 2: 27-01-10, 17:58, -8 GMT, screw it, go for the infinite healing. DN's Charnel Touch + Tomb-Tainted Soul all day.

addendum 3: 27-01-10, 18:00, -8 GMT, unless you find a way to exploit Martial Stance.

addendum 4: 27-01-10, 18:05, -8 GMT, Crusader is probably usable otherwise because I'm not grasping its other healing techniques.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2010, 11:05:27 PM by NiteCyper »
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The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Optimization in the neverending dungeon.
« Reply #70 on: January 27, 2010, 09:38:15 PM »
I don't think so.  Meeting the prereqs gets you a discount, but it's not enough bang for your buck.
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Aldgar

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Re: Optimization in the neverending dungeon.
« Reply #71 on: January 28, 2010, 02:20:21 AM »
Currently, TEAM is a Crusader 5 // Stalwart Battle Sorcerer 1 / Incarnate 4.

However, this character has only 1 familiar, even though share soulmeld is critical to this build.

I've considered a different approach:

Starting the same way, as Crusader // Sorcerer, using feats for shared dissolving spittle from level 1.

The 2nd level, I'd retrain a feat(martial weapon proficiency from stalwart sorcerer) to practiced spellcaster(sorcerer) and advance as Crusader // Incarnate -> Crusader 2 // Sorcerer 1 / Incarnate 1.

The 3rd level, I'd dip a level of druid, choosing the urban companion ACF(that has been ruled to work with share soulmeld!) and take the feat Obtain familiar, granting me a second familiar and an urban companion(which is better than a familiar in every way, because it returns after 24h if slain, has 3/4 HP instead of 1/2, and forces no xp loss on death).

The 4th level, I'd continue leveling as Incarnate //Something with Full BAB(Crusader3, perhaps).

The 5th level, I'd continue leveling as Incarnate, and would like to pick a class that allows me to qualify for BEASTMASTER from complete adventurer(Requirements: Survival 4 ranks, Handle Animal 8 ranks, Skill focus(Handle Animal)), which would grant me more allies to share soulmelds with.

A dip into wizard, trading the familiar for an animal companion(UA variant) would grant an additional share soulmeld target.

I need help to qualify for Beastmaster, effectively.

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Optimization in the neverending dungeon.
« Reply #72 on: January 28, 2010, 03:02:11 AM »
You don't need the urban companion ACF, since you have share spells with your animal companion anyway. 
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Aldgar

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Re: Optimization in the neverending dungeon.
« Reply #73 on: January 28, 2010, 03:15:00 AM »
Urban companions provide benefits to the character(likely +3 to HP as toad "familiar"), they have improved evasion, they have scaling HP(unlike animal companions from dips), they are INTELLIGENT enough to follow complex orders...in short, they're better than animal companions for this character.

Brainpiercing

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Re: Optimization in the neverending dungeon.
« Reply #74 on: January 28, 2010, 05:29:43 AM »
You're going to have the change the name.... meet the ZOO!

But sharing with monster companions won't be so easy, because you need to stay within five feet of them at all times. Also, at that point I think you also want to get some Totemist for Manticore belt :).

DavidWL

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Re: Optimization in the neverending dungeon.
« Reply #75 on: January 28, 2010, 05:39:34 AM »
Wizard 1
Specialist (Transmutation) / Focused Specialist
Trait) spellgifted (Transmutation)
H) Otherworldly
F) Precocious Apprentice (Alter Self)
F) ???
1) Reserves of strength
Elder Evil) ???

- The basic idea is to alter Self into a Dwarven Ancestor for incredible toughness.
- Use the extra feat and the other side of the gestalt for other stuff (perhaps incarnate)

Dragonwrought Desert Kobold (Draconic Archetype: Grants Cleric Spells)
Witch 1/XXX ?
F) Dragonwrought
F) Heighten
1) Versatile Spellcaster
Elder Evil) Reserves of Strength

- The basic idea is to alter Self into a shadow dragon wyrmling for flight and +7NA
- Use the other side of the gestalt for other stuff (perhaps incarnate)


Metamorphic Power is good ... need a way to change shape ... perhaps changling or alter self?  This would be for later in the game, but pretty awesome. 

Elemental Envoy - Geodite might be nice. 

Best,
David
Some Cool Quotes:  [spoiler]
Quote from: unknown
Non-PC activities like out of combat healing should be left to wands and NPCs. It's not fun to play a walking wand of CLW. Likewise, being a combat wall is not a viable PC role. A Wall of Force could do that.

-Sort of, but you left out the important note that a Wall of Force does it better.

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[/spoiler]
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The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Optimization in the neverending dungeon.
« Reply #76 on: January 28, 2010, 05:42:23 AM »
Elder evil bonus feats have to be selected from a list.
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DavidWL

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Re: Optimization in the neverending dungeon.
« Reply #77 on: January 28, 2010, 05:42:57 AM »
Elder evil bonus feats have to be selected from a list.

What about the ones you get from being dedicated to a fiend?
Some Cool Quotes:  [spoiler]
Quote from: unknown
Non-PC activities like out of combat healing should be left to wands and NPCs. It's not fun to play a walking wand of CLW. Likewise, being a combat wall is not a viable PC role. A Wall of Force could do that.

-Sort of, but you left out the important note that a Wall of Force does it better.

Quote from: Runestar / skydragonknight
The most powerful character is the one that you actually get to play.

Quote from: Operation Shoestring
I often have to remind people not to underrate divination.  The ability to effectively metagame without actually metagaming beats the ability to set things on fire more times than not.
[/spoiler]
DavidWL's Random Build Archive

Aldgar

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Re: Optimization in the neverending dungeon.
« Reply #78 on: January 28, 2010, 05:56:43 AM »
Dwarven Ancestor requires CL 5. Spellgifted bumps you to CL 2, Reserves of strength up 3...hey, that works!

+18 natural AC..but you have to be an outsider...so you could simply be a neraphim(losing the bonus feat, but you don't have to take otherwordly) wizard//something.

That...might work. Work extremely well, in fact.

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Optimization in the neverending dungeon.
« Reply #79 on: January 28, 2010, 06:22:22 AM »
Can you make it through the dungeon in 50 minutes?

If we're going to go that route, level 0 savage progression aasimar and tieflings are probably a better bet.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2010, 06:25:42 AM by The_Mad_Linguist »
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