Author Topic: Optimization for a modified 3.5 game - interesting class features  (Read 2789 times)

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ksbsnowowl

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I'm going to be joining a game soon where one of the group members used the 3.5 SRD as a base, but scavenged some mechanics ideas from 4th edition and rewrote the 3.5 rules.  The major things of note:

- Uses the 4th ed concept of Saving "Throw" Defenses, that the caster "attacks," rather than the target making saving throws.  Your save defenses are 10+ 0.5 char level +class bonus (0 or 2, each class can pick 2 that are good, and one that is 0)
- Uses 4th ed type skills
- Each class gets a combat BAB and a magic BAB.  If it doesn't cast spells, it gets 1/2 progression; if it gets 9th level spells, it gets full "BAB" for magic attacks, and if it gets spells, but not 9th level, it gets 3/4 "BAB" progression for magical attacks.  Any magical attack will use the Magic BAB, even something that would be considered a touch attack in a normal 3.5 game.
- "Leveling" is much like 4th edition - there isn't a class table for each character class.
- Almost all class abilities, aside from one or two granted at first level, have been turned into talents that can be chosen whenever you gain a new talent.
- Feats are gained at level 1, 2, and every second level thereafter (4, 6, 8...)
- Talents are gained at level 1, and ever second level thereafter (3, 5, 7...)
- Prestige Classes as they exist in 3rd edition do not exist.  They are paragon talent choices, much like 4th edition (though some got gimped - ie, Arcane Trickster: no way to advance sneak attack and casting).
- No automatic iterative attacks from high BAB.  However, there are feats that grant 2nd, 3rd, and 4th attacks.

There are also some spell changes (cloudkill no longer does Con damage - it seems nothing does ability damage of any type), but that's the big parts.  Spellcasting is exactly like 3.5 casting.

Now, there are some interesting options that present themselves to me as I looked through a few of the classes:

Druids can pick Wildshape (based on Alternate Form, and limited by HD) at first level, usable Wisdom modifier times per day.  By 3rd level you could be getting Large wildshape (4x/day).  By 5th level I could be wildshaping into a plant, or a Huge animal, or a Small, Medium, or Large Elemental (with all Ex, Su, and Sp abilities).  By 7th level I could be a Huge Elemental. Actually, I can't, due to HD limits.
All that, plus spellcasting, animal companion (with beefier HD progression), Nature Sense, and the ability to use Summon Nature's Ally as a standard action spell-like ability once per encounter.

However, the campaign is currently 12th level.  But I could still be a Huge Elemental way early.

Sorcerers had several interesting talents scavenged from various sources, especially the Warlock. They also get a d6 HD.
They are auto-trained in arcana, which now includes Use Magic Device.
They can choose to get eldritch blast as one talent (which progresses at 1d6 per odd Sorcerer level, so 10d6 at 19th level). Attack is versus Reflex defense, but uses Full magic BAB + Cha mod for the attack bonus.
They can choose an element to add to the eldritch blast, including sonic.
They can choose a talent that allows, as a full-round action, changing your eldritch blast into a 20-ft burst emanating from you, that attacks Fort defense and deal Force damage.
A talent useable once per encounter that deals 1d8 damage to all living creatures within 20 feet (attacks Fort), and the sorcerer heals HP's equal to all the damage he deals.
A talent that makes a "web" (centered on you? Range?) that deals energy damage equal to your elemental eldritch blast in a 20-ft radius.  The next round it does one less d6 damage, and so on, persisting until no d6's of damage remain.  It only damages on a successful attack against Reflex.  A successful attack also traps the targets in place, who must make an Acrobatics check (DC 10+ 0.5 sorc level +Cha mod) to get free.
Talents that grant Energy resistance 5 to a specified element.

All that on top of a normal Sorcerer with free Eschew Materials.

Those are the two classes that stuck out at me.  Thoughts?  What would be good ways to optimize these?  I'm going on the assumption no outside 3.5 sources are going to be available.

I'll come in at 12th level, and my starting stats will be 16, 16, 15, 15, 14, 14.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2010, 09:58:44 AM by ksbsnowowl »
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awaken DM golem

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Re: Optimization for a modified 3.5 game - interesting class features
« Reply #1 on: January 26, 2010, 07:46:56 PM »
I've been checking out what 4e things can go ~straight into 3.5e, so this isn't exactly what I've been looking at.
1st go - Fighters are gimped, but so what.
Do you really need "full bab" for 9th level casters? If anything I'd go the other way, to make them that much less effective.
4e basically has NO out-of-combat stuff, that compares at all to what 3.5e Full Casters can do.
I don't know how to balance that ... I'm not even trying.
But sticking a big fat -5 (or -10 !!) in the face of a CO-Wizard, shakes my boots a little.

Arcana + UMD = a lot more mojo than the other Knowledge checks
so ...
Religion + Autohypnosis, or
Nature + Track/Survival -ish

PhaedrusXY

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Re: Optimization for a modified 3.5 game - interesting class features
« Reply #2 on: January 27, 2010, 12:52:15 AM »
It sounds like that web talent + the healing talent could be... crazy if combined.  :love
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

ksbsnowowl

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Re: Optimization for a modified 3.5 game - interesting class features
« Reply #3 on: January 29, 2010, 02:08:39 AM »
It sounds like that web talent + the healing talent could be... crazy if combined.  :love
Sadly, I doubt they can.  One is a full-round action, and the other is a standard action.

I'll admit I was very tentative about this set of house-rules at first, but the more I look at it, I see the advantages of having the Saving Throw defenses.  Yes, "touch attacks" are no more, but if most all former-touch-attacks are backed with a heightened magical BAB, it actually works out decently.  I'll still never change the system this much for my own games, but it seems like this could be a fairly well-engineered system.

I'll be joining the group this Saturday for the first time.  I'll be playing a Sorcerer secondary character they have in the group (due to a former small group size) to just get a feel for the rules, and the group, without having to devote a whole lot of time to introducing a new character yet.  I'll get a chance to "size up" this new sorcerer before deciding what I want to play.

I do think it would be rather interesting to play an elemental-wildshaping Druid at 12th level.  Sure, I can only be a Large Elemental, but that alone gets me DR 5/-, reach, and either decent speed/maneuverability via flight, decent damaging attacks (all "combat" attacks get half character level as bonus damage too [but not magical attacks]), and decent scouting abilities via earthglide.
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ksbsnowowl

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Re: Optimization for a modified 3.5 game - interesting class features
« Reply #4 on: January 31, 2010, 04:05:31 PM »
Attended the game last night, and got a feel for things.  The system is a bit different, but still fun.

I've decided to play a Druid, in no small part because all "prepared" casters actually cast like a Spirit Shaman.  They Retrieve the same number of spells known per day as they have spell slots.  So, if you have five 3rd level spells per day, you get to retrieve 5 spells known, and then you have 5 spell slots per day to use to cast those 5 spells in any combination of times.  The only thing is that you ready metamagic versions of spells at the start of the day, and that is one of your "spells known" for the day (at the appropriately higher level).

The sorcerer gets all the warlock-like powers because the "prepared casters" truly gimp the sorcerer's casting, which is exactly as normal; fixed spells known.
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PhaedrusXY

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Re: Optimization for a modified 3.5 game - interesting class features
« Reply #5 on: February 01, 2010, 02:21:18 PM »
It sounds like that web talent + the healing talent could be... crazy if combined.  :love
Sadly, I doubt they can.  One is a full-round action, and the other is a standard action.
The web one sounds like it has a duration, though. I was thinking you trap a bunch of guys in the web around you, then slowly drain their life into you while they're burned to death by the web.  :D
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

ksbsnowowl

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Re: Optimization for a modified 3.5 game - interesting class features
« Reply #6 on: February 03, 2010, 10:48:33 PM »
It sounds like that web talent + the healing talent could be... crazy if combined.  :love
Sadly, I doubt they can.  One is a full-round action, and the other is a standard action.
The web one sounds like it has a duration, though. I was thinking you trap a bunch of guys in the web around you, then slowly drain their life into you while they're burned to death by the web.  :D
Ah, yes, that would be fun.

So, my plan for this character is to be a Human Druid 12.  For the most part, it's got to stay "Core" (well, this homebrewed version of core).

Also, all the stat-boosting magic items merely pump your modifier, not your actual stat, and these increases do not effect spells per day (but, we get ridiculous stat increases every 4 levels: +1 physical AND +1 mental at 4th, +1 to all stats at 8th, and then alternating between those each time [+1/+1 again at 12th, etc.])  Also, he gives every race +2 to 2 stats from racial mods, and humans get to chose one mental and one physical.

So, I'm going to be a Human Druid 12

Stats: Str 15, Dex 16, Con 21, Int 16, Wis 21, Cha 15
BAB: +9
MAB: +12

Talents: Wildshape, Large Wildshape, Elemental Wildshape, Woodland Stride, Venom Immunity, and one more (Probably the Hierophant Gift of Nature, since I can get it without interrupting my druid casting)  Getting Huge wildshape at this level doesn't make sense - No options to shape into due to HD limits.

8 Feats: Natural Spell, Empower Spell, Skill Training (Stealth), ?Companion Spellbond (if allowed)?, ?Heaving Armor Proficiency (for +1 Wild Dragonhide Fullplate)?, ?(Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Cast on the Run)?

Trained Skills:  Nature, Arcana, Religion, Awareness, Concentration, Persuasion, (Stealth)

I'll have a beefy animal companion, probably a tiger, with 6 bonus HD, if I recall correctly.  Not sure if they still get pounce or improved grab (he altered the grapple rules, and neither is listed in the PDF's glossary.  I don't have creature stats to look up.)
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PhaedrusXY

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Re: Optimization for a modified 3.5 game - interesting class features
« Reply #7 on: February 03, 2010, 11:41:46 PM »
Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Cast on the Run
Take Flyby Attack instead, and just use this option when you're in a form that can fly. It's one feat and it does the same thing.
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

cru

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Re: Optimization for a modified 3.5 game - interesting class features
« Reply #8 on: February 04, 2010, 09:47:32 AM »
have you considered being middle-aged?
or even better, can you take timeless body as a perk early and be old?

non-core wild shape options around with HD<=12:
Thoon Elder Brain (MMV) - large aberration 12 hd
Elder Viper Tree (Expedition to Demonweb Pits) - huge plant 11hd
Dragonhawk (5N) - huge animal 8hd iirc

armor:
I guess core-only, wild dragonhide fullplate is the best option. It can be complemented by animated heavy wooden shield.

From non-core materials, there are several that are non-metallic and yet treated as 1 category lighter, e.g., darkleaf (ECS), blue ice (frostburn), sentira (sarlona), ...

If your DM allows wilding clasps (OR animals wearing stuff), monk's belt can be used alternatively (depending on how high can you boost your wisdom)

PhaedrusXY

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Re: Optimization for a modified 3.5 game - interesting class features
« Reply #9 on: February 04, 2010, 12:16:27 PM »
Getting Huge wildshape at this level doesn't make sense - No options to shape into due to HD limits.
If you take Plant wildshape, the Tendriculos is pretty insane and only 9 HD. Improved Grab + Swallow Whole with Paralysis... If you can get the regeneration somehow, it is even more insane...
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

ksbsnowowl

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Re: Optimization for a modified 3.5 game - interesting class features
« Reply #10 on: February 04, 2010, 03:14:49 PM »
Good point.  I'll have to wait to see though; as I said, improved grab isn't listed in the glossary (at least in the player book section I've got.)
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PhaedrusXY

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Re: Optimization for a modified 3.5 game - interesting class features
« Reply #11 on: February 04, 2010, 03:28:32 PM »
Good point.  I'll have to wait to see though; as I said, improved grab isn't listed in the glossary (at least in the player book section I've got.)
Oh, I missed that. Wow... it's kind of hard to optimize when you only have bits and pieces of a new system. :P
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]