Author Topic: lv2, 2flaws/traits, let's get it on  (Read 3098 times)

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xeno121

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lv2, 2flaws/traits, let's get it on
« on: January 20, 2010, 12:15:24 AM »
All Wizard of the Coast Source books.

lv2, 2 flaws, 2 traits

stats rolled:  11 16 18 15 18 18

<godly>

I had a factotum/swordsage that bit the big bullet so I'm making another one.  Not sure if I want the factotum base, but I was thinking going OA Samurai1 or 2, Warblade and grab a swordsage level or 2 to get shadowblade, take dodge, mobility, spring attack, use Gloom Razor to flatfoot my opponents and go to town.

I saw a few different builds that interested me deeply, PhaedrusXY's shou Iaijutsu swordsman and the Iaijutsu Swordsage from the ToB builds compendium.    I'm not sure how to best update them.


I like the idea of taking a Monk level or 2, swordsages Wis to AC would be a nice fit on top of that. 

Maybe something like

Samurai1/Monk1/Warblade1/Swordsage2/Warblade+3/IaijutsuMaster5/Legacy Champion6/Warblade1
« Last Edit: January 20, 2010, 03:10:40 AM by xeno121 »
First off, the Joker is a smooth operator. He is very good at convincing people of things, twisting them to further his goals. This is the guy who turned Harvy Dent into Two Face with a simple Bluff check and ten minutes of RP.

ShneekeyTheLost

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Re: lv2, 2flaws/traits, let's get it on
« Reply #1 on: January 20, 2010, 10:13:30 PM »
1. What role do you fill in the party?
2. If you want a combat bad-ass and you aren't the squishy skill-monkey, why are you taking Spring Attack?
3. Doesn't that build incur an XP penalty for multi-classing?
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xeno121

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Re: lv2, 2flaws/traits, let's get it on
« Reply #2 on: January 21, 2010, 12:07:32 AM »
1. I need trapfinding somehow and some ranks in the skills for it
2. Spring Attack combined with Gloom Razor allows reliable flatfooting every round for Iaijutsu Focus
3. We're ignoring all multiclass xp penalties
First off, the Joker is a smooth operator. He is very good at convincing people of things, twisting them to further his goals. This is the guy who turned Harvy Dent into Two Face with a simple Bluff check and ten minutes of RP.

ShneekeyTheLost

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Re: lv2, 2flaws/traits, let's get it on
« Reply #3 on: January 21, 2010, 12:09:52 AM »
1. I need trapfinding somehow and some ranks in the skills for it
2. Spring Attack combined with Gloom Razor allows reliable flatfooting every round for Iaijutsu Focus
3. We're ignoring all multiclass xp penalties

You're going to need Bounding Assault and Rapid Blitz. You may as well just be a Raptorian and take Flyby Attack and the improved version in Savage Species/Draconomicon. Much more cost-effective.


[spoiler][/spoiler]

NiteCyper

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Re: lv2, 2flaws/traits, let's get it on
« Reply #4 on: January 21, 2010, 01:16:18 AM »
1. re: trapfinding: the Kobold domain (online) has a Granted Power of trapfinding. To obtain this as a feat, use Planar Touchstone (Catalogues of Enlightenment [Kobold]). Elsewise, dip. Elsewise, bypass/deal with traps indirectly.

2. so, you want Iaijutsu Focus? I'm going to account for ignorance here: why do you want Iaijutsu Focus?
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xeno121

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Re: lv2, 2flaws/traits, let's get it on
« Reply #5 on: January 21, 2010, 10:13:04 AM »
Iaijutsu Focus is cool/useful/good once you can trigger it reliably.  Combine that with standard action maneuvers and spring attack becomes even better.   Combine Iaijutsu Master's lv5 ability to add CHA damage for each Iaijutsu Focus dice, then combine with Ruby Nightmare Blade to muliply the CHA damage.  Or combine Time Stands Still with the first round of combat getting Iaijutsu Focus damage on each attack. 

Feats:
flaw:Weapon Focus
flaw:Dodge
lv1:Mobility
Human: Quick Draw
lv3:Shadowblade
lv6:Gloom Razor
Fighter Bonus: Spring Attack

Essentially I'm trying to get Spring Attack and Gloom Razor together asap, I move 10ft in the same round, attack with a strike, then next round they're treated as flatfooted getting me Iaijutsu Damage on top of whatever maneuver I want to use. 

I'm not sure whether I want warblade or swordsage I tried swordsage and without adaptive style I'd run out of maneuvers and then be dry for the rest of the fight, a warblade wouldn't have that problem and since I could move, use a standard attack to setup another enemy for Gloom Razor and recover my maneuvers at the same time I'm partial to that method, dipping swordsage every now and then to pump up my stealth and observational skills.


I'm a little conflicted on where to put my stats.

I have to wait until lv9 at the soonest to get weapon finesse on katanas.  Dex gives me AC, STR will carry my ability to hit and deal damage up until that point.  If I go the swordsage/monk route I'll need a decent WIS for the AC bonus.  Int is debatable since I'm not taking more than a single factotum level and don't have room for FoI stacking, though I add my INT modifier to AC when not wearing armor that seems to only be helpful if I have a high DEX and INT.  CHA is for bonuses to Iaijutsu Focus rolls and social skills, Con is INT and Diamond Mind skills which is important.
First off, the Joker is a smooth operator. He is very good at convincing people of things, twisting them to further his goals. This is the guy who turned Harvy Dent into Two Face with a simple Bluff check and ten minutes of RP.

ShneekeyTheLost

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Re: lv2, 2flaws/traits, let's get it on
« Reply #6 on: January 21, 2010, 01:57:28 PM »
re: Spring Attack ASAP: Martial Monk variant (I forget the source) gets any Fighter bonus feat, no prereq.

re: Warblade vs. Swordsage: Taking Swordsage at level 1 gets skill-points. The Swordsage gets 6*(6+INT) skill-points at first level.

re: the set-up: maybe Clarion Commander?

re: Adaptive Style: I think this is important for Swordsages.

re: Iaijutsu Focus: What's your resiliency like? HP, AC, etc.?
« Last Edit: January 21, 2010, 02:02:27 PM by NiteCyper »
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xeno121

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Re: lv2, 2flaws/traits, let's get it on
« Reply #7 on: January 21, 2010, 05:26:11 PM »
I'm trying to find a way to add Iaijutsu Focus without taking a level in Factotum.  Human Paragon would work and make it a class skill.

I'm looking at OA Samurai and to get around that obedient to his lord bushido requirement am thinking of backstory handwaving that his lord requires him to gain sufficient strength to battle some evil and so sent him away to train and learn of the world, crap like that, though I hate lawful alignments and I can't really be sneaky.  Though I just looked at the Scorpion Clan and that leads me to believe something entirely different.  LE allows sneakiness and essentially a carte blanche to do whatever needs to be done to win without suffering dishonor.  As long as it has a purpose and isn't to cause chaos.

Clarion commander seems kind of useless in conjunction with Iaijutsu Focus or am I missing something?

I'm thinking Swordsage1/OA Samurai1/Swordsage+1/Monk1 for the Wis to AC, then a level in Monk

I couldn't find the source for martial monk anywhere, but is taking a Monk dip for it's WIS to AC worth it?  I'm losing out on Maneuvers and I have to be unarmored to gain the benefit losing any magical AC enhancement I could put on light armor.  It stacks with the INT and WIS to AC gained from SS/IM respectively though.  And it's cheaper to grab a stat increasing item than it is to get new armor. 

I like the OA Samurai because regardless of Samurai level I can sacrifice items worth a certain amount to upgrade my katana based on character level not class level.  So I save money that way so in the long run it's something small and simple but has definite advantages.

If I take Swordsage 1, OA Samurai 1(rolled a 10 on HP :D), then Monk, I get the AC bonus next level, my IL is 3 for purposes of next level maneuvers.  I'd have to sub in the martial monk somehow, or I could take Swordsage 2 for WIS to AC in light armor/unarmored which is nice.  I'm trying to get Spring Attack quick though, so something like this may be best:

Swordsage1
Samurai1(scorpion clan)
Monk1(Cobra Strike variant)
Samurai2(bonus feat)
Swordsage2
Swordsage3
Swordsage4
Swordsage5
Swordsage6

My feats would have to look like:
flaw: Weapon Focus
flaw: Quick Draw
human: Imp. Init
lv1: Adaptive Style
lv2: Dodge
lv3  Shadowblade
lv4: Mobility(Samurai Bonus)
lv6: Spring Attack
lv9 Gloom Razor

I can't qualify for Gloom Razor until at least 9th because of the BAB requirement.  But Spring Attack and maneuvers are eternally useful.  Combine with Child of Shadows for the miss chance.  Starting with a level in Samurai let's met get 2 masterwork weapons which a +1 to hit will help offset the level difference between me and the rest of the party in hitting things.

Stats:

18 18 18 16 15 11

STR: 16
DEX: 18
CON: 18
INT: 11
WIS: 18
CHA: 15(+1 at lv4)

the low int is a definite downer, not sure how to place that to make it better.    I'd only get 28 skill points to spend at 1st level which is really low. 

In the long term I think between Warblade and Swordsage, Swordsage might be a better choice due to the flatfooted synergy that Gloom Razor and the stronger Shadowhand Maneuvers possess. Thoughts?
First off, the Joker is a smooth operator. He is very good at convincing people of things, twisting them to further his goals. This is the guy who turned Harvy Dent into Two Face with a simple Bluff check and ten minutes of RP.

ShneekeyTheLost

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Re: lv2, 2flaws/traits, let's get it on
« Reply #8 on: January 22, 2010, 09:48:32 AM »
Actually one of the sneakiest characters I've ever seen was lawful good, its all a matter of perception.  You can keep all the tenants and still be manipulative, political, and sneaky.  You just have to do it right.

Also, unless you're using boosts you can't spring attack and use maneuvers.  Spring attack specifically calls for an attack, and maneuvers are standard actions.  Maybe you could get your DM to house rule it.

I'm trying to find a way to add Iaijutsu Focus without taking a level in Factotum.  Human Paragon would work and make it a class skill.

I'm looking at OA Samurai and to get around that obedient to his lord bushido requirement am thinking of backstory handwaving that his lord requires him to gain sufficient strength to battle some evil and so sent him away to train and learn of the world, crap like that, though I hate lawful alignments and I can't really be sneaky.  Though I just looked at the Scorpion Clan and that leads me to believe something entirely different.  LE allows sneakiness and essentially a carte blanche to do whatever needs to be done to win without suffering dishonor.  As long as it has a purpose and isn't to cause chaos.

Clarion commander seems kind of useless in conjunction with Iaijutsu Focus or am I missing something?

I'm thinking Swordsage1/OA Samurai1/Swordsage+1/Monk1 for the Wis to AC, then a level in Monk

I couldn't find the source for martial monk anywhere, but is taking a Monk dip for it's WIS to AC worth it?  I'm losing out on Maneuvers and I have to be unarmored to gain the benefit losing any magical AC enhancement I could put on light armor.  It stacks with the INT and WIS to AC gained from SS/IM respectively though.  And it's cheaper to grab a stat increasing item than it is to get new armor. 

I like the OA Samurai because regardless of Samurai level I can sacrifice items worth a certain amount to upgrade my katana based on character level not class level.  So I save money that way so in the long run it's something small and simple but has definite advantages.

If I take Swordsage 1, OA Samurai 1(rolled a 10 on HP :D), then Monk, I get the AC bonus next level, my IL is 3 for purposes of next level maneuvers.  I'd have to sub in the martial monk somehow, or I could take Swordsage 2 for WIS to AC in light armor/unarmored which is nice.  I'm trying to get Spring Attack quick though, so something like this may be best:

Swordsage1
Samurai1(scorpion clan)
Monk1(Cobra Strike variant)
Samurai2(bonus feat)
Swordsage2
Swordsage3
Swordsage4
Swordsage5
Swordsage6

My feats would have to look like:
flaw: Weapon Focus
flaw: Quick Draw
human: Imp. Init
lv1: Adaptive Style
lv2: Dodge
lv3  Shadowblade
lv4: Mobility(Samurai Bonus)
lv6: Spring Attack
lv9 Gloom Razor

I can't qualify for Gloom Razor until at least 9th because of the BAB requirement.  But Spring Attack and maneuvers are eternally useful.  Combine with Child of Shadows for the miss chance.  Starting with a level in Samurai let's met get 2 masterwork weapons which a +1 to hit will help offset the level difference between me and the rest of the party in hitting things.

Stats:

18 18 18 16 15 11

STR: 16
DEX: 18
CON: 18
INT: 11
WIS: 18
CHA: 15(+1 at lv4)

the low int is a definite downer, not sure how to place that to make it better.    I'd only get 28 skill points to spend at 1st level which is really low. 

In the long term I think between Warblade and Swordsage, Swordsage might be a better choice due to the flatfooted synergy that Gloom Razor and the stronger Shadowhand Maneuvers possess. Thoughts?
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PhaedrusXY

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Re: lv2, 2flaws/traits, let's get it on
« Reply #9 on: January 22, 2010, 11:42:20 AM »
Actually one of the sneakiest characters I've ever seen was lawful good, its all a matter of perception.  You can keep all the tenants and still be manipulative, political, and sneaky.  You just have to do it right.

Also, unless you're using boosts you can't spring attack and use maneuvers.  Spring attack specifically calls for an attack, and maneuvers are standard actions.  Maybe you could get your DM to house rule it.
If you have a flight speed, you could take Flyby Attack instead. Or you could use a Belt of Battle and/or Chronocharm of the Horizon Walker to get an extra move action to do a pseudo-spring attack a few times per day.
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Re: lv2, 2flaws/traits, let's get it on
« Reply #10 on: January 22, 2010, 12:47:53 PM »
Travel Devotion? That's a swift action, right? Then you'd want to be a Scout.
Now that I see a quick summary of Chronocharm of the Horizon Walker, this is that, but more uses, IIRC (and it's a feat).
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Re: lv2, 2flaws/traits, let's get it on
« Reply #11 on: January 22, 2010, 12:59:12 PM »
Travel Devotion? That's a swift action, right? Then you'd want to be a Scout.
Now that I see a quick summary of Chronocharm of the Horizon Walker, this is that, but more uses, IIRC (and it's a feat).
Travel Devotion is once per day, but lasts for a while, unless you have Turn Undead attempts to use it more often. I'd rather buy magic items than burn feats up when possible, also. It is certainly a good feat, though, if you dip into cleric to fuel it more than once per day. But again, that's another cost: a class level.
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

xeno121

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Re: lv2, 2flaws/traits, let's get it on
« Reply #12 on: January 22, 2010, 04:05:46 PM »
How about this class breakdown:
Swordsage1(unarmed)
Samurai1(scorpion)
Monk1(Cobra Strike)
Swordsage2(for WIS to AC)

Essentially does the swordsages large maneuver pool outclass the Warblades HP/BAB?

Are 2 monk levels for evasion worth it?

What maneuvers should I start with?  Is taking a monk level for WIS to AC worth it?

with my stat roll of 18 18 18 16 15 11 where should I put them?  I need high WIS, INT would give me another AC bump from Iaijutsu Master but I've already gained WIS to AC twice, it's not exactly pressing to get it and items can give that a boost anyway.  so I was thinking maybe

16or15STR
18DEX
18CON
11INT
18WIS
16or15CHA

I think for low levels the 16STR would help more than a +1 on Iaijutsu Focus, or should I put it in as 18 STR, 16CON, 18DEX for a higher attack bonus?
First off, the Joker is a smooth operator. He is very good at convincing people of things, twisting them to further his goals. This is the guy who turned Harvy Dent into Two Face with a simple Bluff check and ten minutes of RP.

ShneekeyTheLost

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Re: lv2, 2flaws/traits, let's get it on
« Reply #13 on: January 22, 2010, 06:37:00 PM »
Is taking a monk level for WIS to AC worth it?

This immediately leaped out at me.

When you can buy Wis to AC with a Monk's Belt for 13,000 from the DMG my answer would be no.

Keep in mind, though, that neither of those two methods of Wis to AC let you wear armor.

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Re: lv2, 2flaws/traits, let's get it on
« Reply #14 on: January 22, 2010, 06:38:40 PM »
Between Monk and Swordsage you can only get Wis to AC once. Ever.

Monk requires no armor.
Swordsage requires light armor.

The only FAQ to references this states that Swordsage was meant to be light or less, but then goes on to state that they fall under 'Same untyped bonus' clause, and therefore can't stack.

xeno121

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Re: lv2, 2flaws/traits, let's get it on
« Reply #15 on: January 22, 2010, 09:44:47 PM »
Iaijutsu Master gives INT to AC only when unarmored as well and Warblade has nice INT synergy, that makes swordsage suboptimal then.

How about this:

Warblade1:
Samurai1:
Swordsage1:
Warblade2:
Warblade3:
Warblade4:
Warblade5:
Iaijutsu Master1:
Iajutsu Master2:
Iaijutsu Master3:
Iaijutsu Master4:
Iaijutsu Master5:
Legacy Champion1
Legacy Champion2
Legacy Champion3
Legacy Champion4
Legacy Champion5
Legacy Champion6
Legacy Champion7
Legacy Champion8



flaw: Imp. Initiative
flaw: Quick Draw*
human: Dodge
lv1: Mobility
lv3: Shadowblade
lv6: Spring Attack
lv7:WarbladeBonus: <????>
lv9 Gloom Razor
lv12:Least Legacy

*houseruled to sheath the weapon as a free action as well.

I took warblade at 1st level, I lose some skill points but it's a stronger start and I like having a D12 for 1st level max hp.  I'm giving up the sneaky angle so I don't really need many skill points.  But should I put 16 in INT for more starting skill points to make up for it and at lv4 bump CHA to 16?

I use Legacy Champion to inflate my Initiator Level to attain 9th level maneuvers. (that works right?)

With Sapphire Nightmare blade and the majority of my levels being Warblade, I believe winning initiative for a better chance of going first isn't as vital as with a squishier character who needs to down opponents before they act.  I could save a feat slot by taking Improved Initiative as a Warblade bonus feat and use it for something else, not sure what though.  I could switch improved initiative for adaptive style but I'm not sure if waiting for improved initiative is the best choice.


I'm thinking of just equipping a monk's belt or just saying screw it on the front of class-given AC bonuses and dumping WIS.  Another factor is that the monks AC bonus doesn't work with shields, I can get an animated heavy shield for an AC bonus if I need it. 

Grabbing a Dastana and a Chahar-Aina and enchanting them for the AC bonus is more efficient than going unarmored just for the INT to AC from Iaijutsu Master, a 2nd swordsage level may be warranted since WIS to AC stacks since I'm in light armor and I can get crazy AC bonuses through those 2 items.  the Chahar-Aina is worn over light armor and the Dastana take up the Bracer slot.


STATS:
STR:18
DEX:18
CON:18
INT:15or16
WIS:11
CHA:16or15

lv2 Human Warblade/Samurai
HP:30
AC20 FF16 Touch:14

Saves:
Fort: 8
Reflex:7(w/16int)
Will:2

« Last Edit: January 22, 2010, 11:49:15 PM by xeno121 »
First off, the Joker is a smooth operator. He is very good at convincing people of things, twisting them to further his goals. This is the guy who turned Harvy Dent into Two Face with a simple Bluff check and ten minutes of RP.

ShneekeyTheLost

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Re: lv2, 2flaws/traits, let's get it on
« Reply #16 on: January 22, 2010, 10:24:39 PM »
If you're going for the eastern feel, don't forget that the vast majority of ninja clans were fully capable of being LG at their core, as the honor of the people at large and the clan took precident over the rules of the local ruler.  Following a set code is very lawful, but nothing says it has to be the one set by the local government.  In particular, given the inherent corruption of Japanese (or any) Feudalism, it fits perfectly (even an assassination can be justified if it saves a village of serfs).
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Re: lv2, 2flaws/traits, let's get it on
« Reply #17 on: January 22, 2010, 11:32:27 PM »
re: alignments: suck.
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xeno121

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Re: lv2, 2flaws/traits, let's get it on
« Reply #18 on: January 26, 2010, 05:04:48 PM »
I'm playing the campaign today, does anyone see any glaring deficiencies in my character build?


I think my new feat/level choice will be like this:

lv1Swordsage
lv2Samurai
lv3Samurai
lv4Swordsage
lv5Swordsage
lv6Swordsage
lv7Swordsage
lv8Swordsage
lv9Iaijutsu Master
lv10Iaijutsu Master
lv11 Iaijutsu Master


lv1:adaptive style
flaw: Quick Draw
flaw: Imp. Initiative
human: Dodge
lv3:Mobility(bonus), Shadowblade
lv6: Spring Attack
lv9: Gloom Razor

stats:18 18 18 16 15 11
STR16
DEX:18(+1 lv8,12,16,20)
CON:18
INT:11
WIS:18
CHA:15(+1 lv4)

I think I like this setup more, I lose some HP but I think I prefer what I get in exchange.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2010, 05:27:13 PM by xeno121 »
First off, the Joker is a smooth operator. He is very good at convincing people of things, twisting them to further his goals. This is the guy who turned Harvy Dent into Two Face with a simple Bluff check and ten minutes of RP.

ShneekeyTheLost

xeno121

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Re: lv2, 2flaws/traits, let's get it on
« Reply #19 on: January 27, 2010, 04:24:49 AM »
I'm lv4 swordsage/samurai/samurai/swordsage

I can choose one 2nd level maneuver and one stance, for maneuvers I'm thinking either Shadow Jaunt, Emerald Razor, or Flashing Sun, not sure if there's any other notables.  Stances I'm thinking stonefoot stance or stance of clarity.  I'm the parties only sneaky member here and last session my stealth defined the pace of the second encounter.

The first encounter we had open combat vs bandits, after that we were up against a farm infested with more bandits.  I sneaked in for some recon, found enemy positions, then we waiting until nightfall and we struck, stealthily taking out patrols, I snuck up and assassinated lookouts with Iaijutsu Focus.  Then I circled around on the enemies, climbed to the rooftop where 2 sentries were looking out and killed both of them setting off the ambush.  I then discovered the awesomeness that is Setting Sun when I used Mighty Throw to hurl a guy 10 ft, prone inbetween 3 party members. 

I'm leaning towards Shadow Jaunt because it would give a major boost to my ability to sneak, instead of running from cover to cover in the open, I could teleport from one point of cover to the next.  I still can't wait for Death in the Dark.

I'm a little bummed that when I take Iaijutsu Master I won't be getting any new maneuvers.  I'm considering dropping Iaijutsu Master or taking Swordsage levels inbetween some of it's levels to get me higher level maneuvers in that 5 level gap. 
First off, the Joker is a smooth operator. He is very good at convincing people of things, twisting them to further his goals. This is the guy who turned Harvy Dent into Two Face with a simple Bluff check and ten minutes of RP.

ShneekeyTheLost