Author Topic: Monster Races, ECL and balance.  (Read 9578 times)

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bearsarebrown

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Re: Monster Races, ECL and balance.
« Reply #20 on: January 13, 2010, 01:45:12 AM »
What if this system had leeway for tiers? That's get really complicated...

I just want a system that doesn't punish for cool races like Sword Achons  :banghead

Runestar

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Re: Monster Races, ECL and balance.
« Reply #21 on: January 13, 2010, 07:37:18 AM »
Quote
What if this system had leeway for tiers? That's get really complicated...

How would that work? Monsters that are too strong, balanced or too weak for their ECL?

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Brainpiercing

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Re: Monster Races, ECL and balance.
« Reply #22 on: January 13, 2010, 08:05:44 AM »
In my game I abolish LA, and give RHD equal to approximately CR+0 to CR+3. I factor in stat boosts and minor and major abilities. As a rule of thumb, one RHD can "pay" for about 6 points of stat boosts and a minor ability. For major abilities, such as casting, you will need a full HD. I do not take into regard, however, the general consensus that bonus is worth more than penalty.

To give a few examples:
The Aranea from the SRD casts as a third level Sorc, IIRC, and has +18 to stats (if you give it full PB, which is another matter), plus some shapechanging abilities. It's also CR 4. First rule would put it at 4+ 1 to 3 RHD. Rule of thumb says about 3HD for casting (full casting levels which stack with later class levels), then three HD for abilities. So you get a 6 HD critter with 3rd level sorceror casting. And then you handwave it, how would it compare to a 6th level sorc gish (which it would be forced to play)? So basically I say, would I play it as a 6HD critter? Probably not. But five, maybe. So I give it five RHD and third level casting that stacks with later Sorc levels.
Obviously it depends on the power level of the party.

There is another method where you don't give the guy a full point-buy, but instead give monster stats adapted via NON-Elite Array. That's equivalent to a 15pt point buy. Now you deduct stat boosts and can adjust the RHD. This is easier if you use non-standard buys without escalating costs, because then you can adjust one for one: For instance a 30pt non-escalating point-buy would give leave that critter at +3 points over the normal PC, at which point you lose another RHD and make it playable as a 4HD critter. (3 casting, +3 abilities,+some minors, that about fits +1.)

Another SRD example is the Lammasu: CR8, 7 levels cleric casting + some SLAs, plus stat boosts.
Method 1: Use monster stats and about 9 RHD, this is what I suggested to an applicant in my game once.
Method 2: Point-buy and about 6 extra HD (for +36 abilities) (on top of the 7 for cleric casting). This clearly doesn't work, because at that point casting is too far behind. However, I would be careful with reducing them too far. At least +3-4 are warranted. A lot of martial cleric builds lose 2-3 levels of casting, and this guy still has mad stats, even without the fancy class features of the martial clerics (RKV for example). So you're trading abilities for class features, which from a brute force perspective works quite well.

In both cases don't forget that those RHD are of a fairly good type, so these characters will come out strong.

EDIT:
Something I forgot earlier: One important thing to note in all cases is role of money in the equation: CR doesn't assume that a critter has equipment worth its WBL, while of course characters DO. WBL plays a huge role in character power, while most monsters are made to compete without magic items whatsoever. Often enough, if you were to give a monster of CR X items with value of WBL for it's (original) CR, then you could easily add a few digits. Likewise, strangely enough, I guess it's pretty rare that you get a kill an enemy character with WBL for his level (because that would provide far more than EL appropriate money), but characters still get CR=level.
It would be interesting to try playing monsters with CR=ECL without giving them money to start with.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2010, 09:31:29 AM by Brainpiercing »

PlzBreakMyCampaign

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Re: Monster Races, ECL and balance.
« Reply #23 on: January 14, 2010, 05:29:21 PM »
Brainpiercing your care about RHD is exactly on track but your methods are too complex.

monsters as PC's has never worked properly.  It will always have to be on a case by case basis.
I disagree. There are (easy) formulaic ways of fixing the monsters-as-PCs ECL system. I have a few threads on how ECL should be btw.
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An interesting read, nice to see a civil discussion
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But if your greedy for more [Wish] for something that only effects you, like another class level or two that doesn't count against your ECL.
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Sinfire Titan

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Re: Monster Races, ECL and balance.
« Reply #24 on: January 14, 2010, 05:57:18 PM »
CR +1 is what they suggest in Races of War, but it doesn't work that well for a lot of them. They go into more details about how to try converting them into something reasonable. For sure the current LA system sucks, but just replacing it with CR doesn't work that well, either. For example, there's a freakin' harpy (300 foot radius crowd control!  :banghead ) and psurlon (250' Mindsight! Argh! :banghead) that are giving me hell in the game I'm running. The player's ability to control them (as his minions...) is based on their CR, which doesn't seem to be very balanced...

And should this be in the House Rules or D&D Deliberations section? Or are you trying to optimize for a game you're playing that is using this?

I think the main problem is that players are more likely to find a sneaky trick with an individual monster than the DM, hence why LA and CR are not equal. PCs only have to worry about one creature at a time, while the DM controls several and often needs to read multiple text blocks every encounter.


[spoiler][/spoiler]

Brainpiercing

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Re: Monster Races, ECL and balance.
« Reply #25 on: January 14, 2010, 07:39:38 PM »

I think the main problem is that players are more likely to find a sneaky trick with an individual monster than the DM, hence why LA and CR are not equal. PCs only have to worry about one creature at a time, while the DM controls several and often needs to read multiple text blocks every encounter.
While I agree that GMs in D&D have one HELL of a job keeping track of things, it's still mostly party balance I would be concerned about when balancing these things. Basically just making sure that everyone has a good time, and if a player wants to play a monster, then he SHOULD be having a good time, too. So any kind of method will have to incorporate group dynamics.

Brainpiercing your care about RHD is exactly on track but your methods are too complex.

Well, I don't think an easy solution has a chance of working. You have to have some general guidelines, and then do some handwaving. Building characters is really complex. You have to understand that a monster as a character can actually be LESS complex. Once you've figured out how to place him within the group, that's it, you've got basically a ton of things already fixed.

Also, one of my main goals is flexibility. If a player really wants something, and it will make his day better, then by all means I want to find a way to let him have it. It doesn't ALWAYS work, but ....

Hand_of_Vecna

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Re: Monster Races, ECL and balance.
« Reply #26 on: January 15, 2010, 02:48:01 AM »
My personal rule of thumb is to use LA as is but let the player replace mounstrous hd with superior class levels. So a 4hd +2 LA race can be played at level 6, and no earlier, with 4 class levels and a LA of +2.

Littha

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Re: Monster Races, ECL and balance.
« Reply #27 on: January 15, 2010, 03:08:22 AM »
My personal rule of thumb is to use LA as is but let the player replace mounstrous hd with superior class levels. So a 4hd +2 LA race can be played at level 6, and no earlier, with 4 class levels and a LA of +2.

You would have a problem with things like Nymph LA+7 with 6 HD would end up at 6 druid levels and 7 effective druid caster levels from nymph.
 
That would end with you having the casting of a 13th level druid, gain lots of stat bonuses and the fey type though you would lose out on wild shape and animal companion progression (though the latter can be made up with feats).
Oh and you can permanently blind people if they look at you.

Though i realize rule of thumb and no sane DM would allow that.

Hand_of_Vecna

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Re: Monster Races, ECL and balance.
« Reply #28 on: January 15, 2010, 03:45:42 AM »


You would have a problem with things like Nymph LA+7 with 6 HD would end up at 6 druid levels and 7 effective druid caster levels from nymph.
 
That would end with you having the casting of a 13th level druid, gain lots of stat bonuses and the fey type though you would lose out on wild shape and animal companion progression (though the latter can be made up with feats).
Oh and you can permanently blind people if they look at you.

Though i realize rule of thumb and no sane DM would allow that.

Ya that would be an exception to my rule of thumb. As would most races that flat out get full casting. How about just giving them everything else a level 6 druid gets and saying their locked into druid by their nature?

Littha

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Re: Monster Races, ECL and balance.
« Reply #29 on: January 15, 2010, 03:48:09 AM »
being locked into druid isnt exactly a penalty....

PlzBreakMyCampaign

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Re: Monster Races, ECL and balance.
« Reply #30 on: January 15, 2010, 06:16:37 AM »
You would have a problem with things like Nymph LA+7 with 6 HD would end up at 6 druid levels and 7 effective druid caster levels from nymph.
This is just an example, but things like this have already been taken care of:

7. The way ECL should be
ECL = Floor[HD/2-LA] + LA + Class levels

HD not counting towards ECL is the way the ECL rules should be, instead of the way it is now, IMHO. Take a look at the way HD normally scales with LA...

1) Racial HD does not normally add to ECL. This makes most races ECL = Class Levels + LA. For exceptions see below:

2) The racial HD does not get con bonus to HP as class levels do. DMs should be strongly encouraged to waive this exception if they want PCs with more normal amounts of HP - IMO PC HP is way too low compared to the damage they can receive.

3) If a race has racial spellcasting related to its racial HD, remove that abilities racial power source up to it's HD. For instance an psychic Illithid would have no psuedo psion levels but a Spellweaver would still have 2 psuedo sorcerer levels. Remember that this variant is done in a character by character basis allowing a psionic illithid to not use this variant while a spellweaver in the party does.

4) Skill points for the first level are not added twice. So a character with racial HD and one class level may choose either to have the 4x(_+int) for either according to the HD or the class level's skill point allotment.

5) Skill points from racial HD do not allow a character to exceed the normal 3+ECL max since the HD no longer count towards the ECL.

6) BAB still counts as long as the total BaB from HD and ECL is doesn't exceed 20 (if it would exceed 20 it is instead set to 20). However PrC prereqs may at DM discretion not use the racial BAB especially if it would not otherwise be possible for that PrC to be in the build later on.

7) Natural healing rate is based off of ECL and so is not affected by the free racial HD, though this might seem a bit counter intuitive.
[Spoiler]
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An interesting read, nice to see a civil discussion
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And healed. Don't forget that.
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Your a shifter... you have all you ever need.
It blows MoMF out of the water

But if your greedy for more [Wish] for something that only effects you, like another class level or two that doesn't count against your ECL.
Quote from: hungryhungryhippo987
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Brainpiercing

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Re: Monster Races, ECL and balance.
« Reply #31 on: January 15, 2010, 06:52:51 AM »

7. The way ECL should be
ECL = Floor[HD/2-LA] + LA + Class levels

HD not counting towards ECL is the way the ECL rules should be, instead of the way it is now, IMHO. Take a look at the way HD normally scales with LA...

1) Racial HD does not normally add to ECL. This makes most races ECL = Class Levels + LA. For exceptions see below:

2) The racial HD does not get con bonus to HP as class levels do. DMs should be strongly encouraged to waive this exception if they want PCs with more normal amounts of HP - IMO PC HP is way too low compared to the damage they can receive.

3) If a race has racial spellcasting related to its racial HD, remove that abilities racial power source up to it's HD. For instance an psychic Illithid would have no psuedo psion levels but a Spellweaver would still have 2 psuedo sorcerer levels. Remember that this variant is done in a character by character basis allowing a psionic illithid to not use this variant while a spellweaver in the party does.

4) Skill points for the first level are not added twice. So a character with racial HD and one class level may choose either to have the 4x(_+int) for either according to the HD or the class level's skill point allotment.

5) Skill points from racial HD do not allow a character to exceed the normal 3+ECL max since the HD no longer count towards the ECL.

6) BAB still counts as long as the total BaB from HD and ECL is doesn't exceed 20 (if it would exceed 20 it is instead set to 20). However PrC prereqs may at DM discretion not use the racial BAB especially if it would not otherwise be possible for that PrC to be in the build later on.

7) Natural healing rate is based off of ECL and so is not affected by the free racial HD, though this might seem a bit counter intuitive.

Hmm. IMHO this is actually a lot more complicated than my method. Also, I find using HD with stat boosts as roughly equivalent to class levels doesn't require breaking other, well established rules.

There are of course problems: Undead and Humanoid HD for example really suck compared to the big two (Dragon and Outsider), and still suck  compared to Monstrous Humanoid and Magical beast. However, this could be handwaved, once again. Also, in my running game I changed some of the HD. (Humanoid get more skills and advance CL for all casting, undead advance CL for cleric and Wizard casting, etc.)

Littha

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Re: Monster Races, ECL and balance.
« Reply #32 on: January 15, 2010, 10:01:47 PM »
I was referring to Hand_of_Vecna's post (that i quoted).

TheEndIsNear

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Re: Monster Races, ECL and balance.
« Reply #33 on: January 15, 2010, 10:07:30 PM »
My personal rule of thumb is to use LA as is but let the player replace mounstrous hd with superior class levels. So a 4hd +2 LA race can be played at level 6, and no earlier, with 4 class levels and a LA of +2.

You would have a problem with things like Nymph LA+7 with 6 HD would end up at 6 druid levels and 7 effective druid caster levels from nymph.
 
That would end with you having the casting of a 13th level druid, gain lots of stat bonuses and the fey type though you would lose out on wild shape and animal companion progression (though the latter can be made up with feats).
Oh and you can permanently blind people if they look at you.

Though i realize rule of thumb and no sane DM would allow that.

Add that to like your effective spellcasting level can't exede your HD so a level 6 druid/7 LA Nymph would cast as a druid 6 and cast as a druid 13 with an extra 7 levels of fighter.

Hand_of_Vecna

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Re: Monster Races, ECL and balance.
« Reply #34 on: January 16, 2010, 12:41:05 AM »
I covered that, basically caster monsters are different (caster as is casts as a lvl X whatever) and their hd have to be considered differently. A Nymph is like a Lvl 7 druid missing a hd with a +7 LA. So esentially they have 6 levels in a class that is like Druid only with fey hd and skills instead of Druid awesomeness and it's seven levels of LA include +1 caster level along with it's various abilities and heavy stat bonuses.

Therefore a Druid in a game I ran would have 6d8 hd, cast as a lvl 7 druid and have all the other abilities of a 6th lvl Druid and a nymph at ECL 13, nothing game breaking it's still gonna lag well behind a real caster.

PlzBreakMyCampaign

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Re: Monster Races, ECL and balance.
« Reply #35 on: January 16, 2010, 04:06:43 AM »
IMHO this is actually a lot more complicated than my method.
Sorry I'm a math guy so I think formulaic things are easier.

Also yes not all HD is created equal, but its logical and that is going to persist without some really large changes...
[Spoiler]
Quote
An interesting read, nice to see a civil discussion
The point of Spell Resistance is to make it harder to get buffed.
And healed. Don't forget that.
Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.
[/Spoiler]

Old Geezer's Law of Hobby Taste: The more objectively inconsequential a hobby is, the more disagreements within the community will be expressed in outrageously insulting, overblown, and ludicrously emotionally laden terms.

More Funny than Humble[Spoiler]
Quote from: PlzBreakMyCampaign
Your a shifter... you have all you ever need.
It blows MoMF out of the water

But if your greedy for more [Wish] for something that only effects you, like another class level or two that doesn't count against your ECL.
Quote from: hungryhungryhippo987
Yes, I'm the 3.0 "Masters of the Wild" shifter, the awesome kind. My favorite form to take is Force Dragon. Yes, I am immortal ... My character is hands down the coolest guy in the campaign and there is nothing I could possibly want.
PBMC gets a cookie for DotA r

Brainpiercing

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Re: Monster Races, ECL and balance.
« Reply #36 on: January 16, 2010, 11:00:45 AM »
IMHO this is actually a lot more complicated than my method.
Sorry I'm a math guy so I think formulaic things are easier.

Also yes not all HD is created equal, but its logical and that is going to persist without some really large changes...
Well, I guess it's just a matter of taste, then. I just dislike LA, so I want to use HD.

Also, I think the thread on gleemax gives plenty of ways to break your system. Since mine always looks at the whole picture, it seems inherently safer, because it doesn't give a firm rule, rather, player and DM have to work something out. Also, I tend to say that a player is at all times as much responsible for maintaining plausibility of the game world as the GM, so if a player picks something too outrageous, either the game world will change or he will be asked to adjust it.

Currently in my campaign I have:
(My players plz. don't read this, I put up private/public sheets for a reason)
[spoiler]
An ECL 10 (now 11) Barghest with a custom outsider HD progression. Basically gets an SLA each level. Has to actually eat monster corpses to advance (but CAN eat anything, even outsiders.).
An ECL 10 Imp3/Binder1/Fiend of Poession 6, with three outsider HD
An ECL 10 Half-Dragon(fixed/improved template) Goliath with 6RHD and four class levels
An ECL8 Adjusted Feral House-cat Swift Hunter (NPC)

As far as non-monsters go I have:
An ECL8 human Beguiler
An ECL9 human super non-optimised Cleric (NPC)
An ECL 8 Halfling Bard

I was going to get, but the players left:
An ECL10 Lammasu cleric with about 8th level cleric casting, IIRC.
A guy who wanted to become a Deathknight without sucking.
[/spoiler]
So basically I have builds for subtility and raw power both working very well. I don't quite know what would happen if someone wanted to play a Djinni or something similar that can seriously upset PC wealth or access to nasty stuff like organic poisons. But I think it's important to say that this system works in the environment I'm trying it at the moment.

PlzBreakMyCampaign

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Re: Monster Races, ECL and balance.
« Reply #37 on: January 16, 2010, 04:35:48 PM »
I think the thread on gleemax gives plenty of ways to break your system.
?

Dragon & Outsider HD are the best (no change)
Try to get close to HD of LA*2 (change from try to get HD close to 0)

There were no other methods of optimization mentioned, much less breaking. The closest thing I can think of it choosing wisely for SLAs. But that just feels too much like a warlock to me.
[Spoiler]
Quote
An interesting read, nice to see a civil discussion
The point of Spell Resistance is to make it harder to get buffed.
And healed. Don't forget that.
Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.
[/Spoiler]

Old Geezer's Law of Hobby Taste: The more objectively inconsequential a hobby is, the more disagreements within the community will be expressed in outrageously insulting, overblown, and ludicrously emotionally laden terms.

More Funny than Humble[Spoiler]
Quote from: PlzBreakMyCampaign
Your a shifter... you have all you ever need.
It blows MoMF out of the water

But if your greedy for more [Wish] for something that only effects you, like another class level or two that doesn't count against your ECL.
Quote from: hungryhungryhippo987
Yes, I'm the 3.0 "Masters of the Wild" shifter, the awesome kind. My favorite form to take is Force Dragon. Yes, I am immortal ... My character is hands down the coolest guy in the campaign and there is nothing I could possibly want.
PBMC gets a cookie for DotA r

awaken DM golem

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Re: Monster Races, ECL and balance.
« Reply #38 on: January 20, 2010, 08:32:30 PM »
hmm ... interesting question.

I'm looking at it upside-down. Literally.
I figure 3HD racial + 2 LA's is about the max you can stick in a build, and still get to the magic 9s. Or go Ur-Priest and not be a poorly built Ur.
But this is because of LA buy-off.
So, the goodies hafta be equal to real Levels of real classes, and then you have to play catch-up.
Same consideration for a Skill Monkey or a Front-liner or a Gish.
In any case, I don't think an LA+2 has been published that was worth 8th level spells on any sort, or the 7th level of a Full Caster; except Tauric !!
You feeling me?

LA +3 even with buy-off, causes a problem.
You lose 1 full level by level 20. That level is a violation of Caelic's commandments.
So, quite literally the LA +3 MUST be equal to a Full Casters' fun and games, to keep up.
I haven't bothered to check LA+3 's for this reason.

So If LA's and Racial HD's are compared to Caelic's Commands ... where do they fit ?
Some might fit early. but I'd bet none fit later.

snakeman830

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Re: Monster Races, ECL and balance.
« Reply #39 on: January 20, 2010, 11:38:47 PM »
LA+3, assuming no racial HD, can be completely bought off by level 20.  You buy it off at ECL's 12, 17, and 19 (note: ECL's are pre-buyoff).
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