Author Topic: kobolds do it better (beguiler cleric-ish generalist)  (Read 4384 times)

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DavidWL

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kobolds do it better (beguiler cleric-ish generalist)
« on: January 26, 2010, 05:24:57 AM »
Looking for the an incredibly flexible caster caster, with a reasonably simple build - a kobold of course.  Building on an idea by The_Mad_Linguist, here:
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=6319.msg208494#msg208494

Venerable Desert Dragonwrought Kobold (draconic archetype enabling cleric or druid spells)
Beguiler 20
F - Heighten
F - Versatile Spellcaster
1 - Dragonwrought
3 - Initiate of Mystra
6 - Reserves of Strength?
9 - Flyby attack ?
12 - Craft Contingent Spell
15 -
18 -

Thought - with spontaneous access to the complete cleric list, anyspell, greater anyspell, miracle, and UMD, should be able to fill the role of arcane caster as well as divine caster.
I left this as beguiler 20 not because this is optimal, but rather because I wanted this to be more about concept and feats - you can take it many different directions depending on prestige class (Dweomerkeeper, Incantatrix, Halruaan Elder, Hathran, etc.)  Levels 19-20 are prime time for dipping as you don't lose any spells known, and you still have a good number of spells castable.  Would anyone have a thought as to a clear "winner"?

Anyone have suggestions on where to take this in terms of prestige classes or templates (for the last 2 levels)?

Best,
David
Some Cool Quotes:  [spoiler]
Quote from: unknown
Non-PC activities like out of combat healing should be left to wands and NPCs. It's not fun to play a walking wand of CLW. Likewise, being a combat wall is not a viable PC role. A Wall of Force could do that.

-Sort of, but you left out the important note that a Wall of Force does it better.

Quote from: Runestar / skydragonknight
The most powerful character is the one that you actually get to play.

Quote from: Operation Shoestring
I often have to remind people not to underrate divination.  The ability to effectively metagame without actually metagaming beats the ability to set things on fire more times than not.
[/spoiler]
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bearsarebrown

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Re: kobolds do it better (beguiler cleric-ish generalist)
« Reply #1 on: January 26, 2010, 05:39:38 AM »
Spelldancer 1 + immunity to Fatiuge + immunity to Constitution Damage == Unlimited free persist.
Mystic Wanderer 1 grants Cha to AC as a Sacred/Profane bonus.
Ur-Priest 2 + dual progression can get nasty.
Knight of the Weave 1 + SpellThief 1 + Master SpellThief + Ultimate Magus == CLs of 60+
Sacred Exorcist for Turning Attempts.
Prestige Paladin 1 for Paladin spells added to list, and retarded interpretations of Dragon Magic granting SotAO + Battle Blessing.
War Weaver makes you fit into a party perfectly.


eh just listing fun caster dips, no idea if any of that helps

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: kobolds do it better (beguiler cleric-ish generalist)
« Reply #2 on: January 26, 2010, 06:10:11 AM »
Yeah, that's similar to my take on the omnicaster

Kobold beguiler 1/rainbow servant 10/Mindbender1/Prestige Pally4/Prestige Ranger2/Divine Oracle 1/Prestige Bard 2/
with the child of eberron sovereign archetype
For beguiler/wizard/cleric/druid/paladin/ranger/bard + domain spells.

You lose four levels of casting progression, but you're already ahead by a spell level thanks to versatile spellcaster, so it works out with ninth level spells anyway.
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NiteCyper

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KellKheraptis

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Re: kobolds do it better (beguiler cleric-ish generalist)
« Reply #4 on: January 26, 2010, 05:03:17 PM »
Yeah, that's similar to my take on the omnicaster

Kobold beguiler 1/rainbow servant 10/Mindbender1/Prestige Pally4/Prestige Ranger2/Divine Oracle 1/Prestige Bard 2/
with the child of eberron sovereign archetype
For beguiler/wizard/cleric/druid/paladin/ranger/bard + domain spells.

You lose four levels of casting progression, but you're already ahead by a spell level thanks to versatile spellcaster, so it works out with ninth level spells anyway.

Never seen that before TML, that's sweet as hell.  If the DM approves Beguiler as eligible for Greater Draconic Rite and you buy off White Dragonspawn, you'd even get 9ths naturally :D
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NiteCyper

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Re: kobolds do it better (beguiler cleric-ish generalist)
« Reply #5 on: January 26, 2010, 08:54:15 PM »
Caveat: I edit my posts, ever and anon after.

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: kobolds do it better (beguiler cleric-ish generalist)
« Reply #6 on: January 26, 2010, 09:44:53 PM »
Versatile spellcaster works due to the beguiler learning mechanic and heighten spell.
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bearsarebrown

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Re: kobolds do it better (beguiler cleric-ish generalist)
« Reply #7 on: January 26, 2010, 09:54:18 PM »
How can I add Wu Jen spells to a list?

short of archivist i'm seriously running dry on this one

Negative Zero

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Re: kobolds do it better (beguiler cleric-ish generalist)
« Reply #8 on: January 26, 2010, 09:59:28 PM »
Being a Changeling and taking Recaster, or a cheesy reading of Extra Spell.

DavidWL

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Re: kobolds do it better (beguiler cleric-ish generalist)
« Reply #9 on: January 28, 2010, 03:06:29 AM »
Chameleon's can cast Wu Jen spells as well.  Miracle can emulate them.

Best,
David
Some Cool Quotes:  [spoiler]
Quote from: unknown
Non-PC activities like out of combat healing should be left to wands and NPCs. It's not fun to play a walking wand of CLW. Likewise, being a combat wall is not a viable PC role. A Wall of Force could do that.

-Sort of, but you left out the important note that a Wall of Force does it better.

Quote from: Runestar / skydragonknight
The most powerful character is the one that you actually get to play.

Quote from: Operation Shoestring
I often have to remind people not to underrate divination.  The ability to effectively metagame without actually metagaming beats the ability to set things on fire more times than not.
[/spoiler]
DavidWL's Random Build Archive

DavidWL

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Re: kobolds do it better (beguiler cleric-ish generalist)
« Reply #10 on: January 28, 2010, 03:45:57 AM »
Replying to different suggested classes:

  • Spelldancer 1 + immunity to Fatiuge + immunity to Constitution Damage == Unlimited free persist.


I like it.  The 4 feat requirement, however, is too tough for this build, which only has a few free feats.

That said, I'm inspired ... adding it to a Gish - Swiftblade / Abjurant Champion - ish build would be awesome! 
Loredrake Kobold (w/ flaws)
Stalwart Sorcerer 4/Spelldancer 3/Swiftblade 9/Abjurant Champion 4
Very feat tight, but very cool.

  • Mystic Wanderer 1 grants Cha to AC as a Sacred/Profane bonus.


He's not a Cha Monkey so while he'll have a good Cha, this isn't quite the direction I'm wanting to go - more, I'm thinking about generalist caster.

  • Ur-Priest 2 + dual progression can get nasty.


But we can already _spontaneously_ cast any cleric spell ... we don't need even more cleric spells

  • Knight of the Weave 1 + SpellThief 1 + Master SpellThief + Ultimate Magus == CLs of 60+


This is valid - I'm not wanting to go this route as it costs quite a few CL, and the befit is a high effective caster level, but we can really get most of that with Retain Essense (or whatever that dragonlance spell is called) + Consumptive field.

  • Sacred Exorcist for Turning Attempts.


This is nice.  Feat intensive, but still nice for persistent madness. 

  • Prestige Paladin 1/4


Prestige paladin 1 isn't, I think, worth it.  If you have all cleric spells, there aren't that many great paladin spells for a pure spellcaster.

Prestige Paladin + Sword of the Arcane Order is totally worth it, but the raw is on shaky footing (where as I think the ability of a dragonwrought kobold w/ the appropriate draconic archetype is pretty RAW, even if incredibly good).  Prestige Paladin probably shouldn't progress your CL (as they are arcane levels, even though they let you cast divine spells), and "Paladin Slots" aren't well defined in this context.

  • War Weaver makes you fit into a party perfectly.


This is a cool and awesome idea.  We usually don't get full "divine" war weavers, but this is a great way to do that.  Thanks!

  • rainbow servant 10 w/ child of eberron


Honestly, I'd rather have the levels available to take other cool prestige classes than to get the Druid spell list ... especially with the whole cleric list.

Similarly with dipping in ranger or paladin - the ranger or paladin spells just aren't worth the hit to CL.  I'd even say the same of Prestige Bard, although the spell list is better.

  • Divine Oracle 1


I love Divine Oracle ... perhaps even do Divine Oracle 3 to get the ability to get re-rolls on divinations-like spells and evasion.

Currently it is looking like:
Beguiler 4/War Weaver 5/Divine Oracle 3/

I wish that the prestige paladin was on better footing, but it is so messy ... but any other thoughts on being able to add to the arcane threat aspect?  Perhaps Mage of the Arcane Order?  Not very optimal, but works well towards also functioning as an arcane threat ...

Beguiler 4/War Weaver 5/Mage of the Arcane Order 9/Divine Oracle 2 ?

Hmm.  Still not as a tightly themed a build as I would like.

More thoughts?

Best,
David
Some Cool Quotes:  [spoiler]
Quote from: unknown
Non-PC activities like out of combat healing should be left to wands and NPCs. It's not fun to play a walking wand of CLW. Likewise, being a combat wall is not a viable PC role. A Wall of Force could do that.

-Sort of, but you left out the important note that a Wall of Force does it better.

Quote from: Runestar / skydragonknight
The most powerful character is the one that you actually get to play.

Quote from: Operation Shoestring
I often have to remind people not to underrate divination.  The ability to effectively metagame without actually metagaming beats the ability to set things on fire more times than not.
[/spoiler]
DavidWL's Random Build Archive

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: kobolds do it better (beguiler cleric-ish generalist)
« Reply #11 on: January 28, 2010, 03:51:48 AM »
The point of the build was not so much being powerful as having the most possible different kinds of spells available to cast (though battle blessing would make it awesome anyway).



Knight of the raven gets you turning as well, but loses a CL.
Linguist, Mad, Unique, none of these things am I
My custom class: The Priest of the Unseen Host
Planetouched Handbook
Want to improve your character?  Then die.