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HCL

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Why up 2 tier prcs are up 2 tiers
« on: January 08, 2010, 01:47:15 PM »
Going to get er started, please feel free to contribute

Anarchic Initiate (Complete Psion)
[spoiler]Logical Entry: Psion 5 with Overchannel feat is generally the best, but it can be incorporated into an Ardent or Wilder build with a bit of work.

You get a bigger hit die and more skill points per level than a normal psion. You get some wild surge progression (+2 in 10 levels is all you need). When you overchannel or wild surge, you can do a chaotic surge which will half your power's numeric values 25% of the time, but empower 25% of the time and maximize 25% of the time. Overall this increases the effectiveness of powers significantly. Postpone enervation at 8th level is handy, and you get a couple nice bonus class features. Also you can make a chaotic rift once per day which is pretty cool. And of course, there is chaotic breach which is pretty damn helpful and does not cost power points to use.

Overall this is one of the strongest psionic PrCs in existence, and it is way stronger than pure psion[/spoiler]

Anima Mage (Tome of Magic)
[spoiler]Logical Entry: Arcane Caster 1-4 (Wizard or Wu Jen is best), Binder 1. You need the Improved Binding feat so you can get in with 1 binder level. If you take something like Improved Sigil Krau, Precocious Apprentice, Versatile Spellcaster + heighten, or Primitive Spellcasting you can get in at level 3

This is a dual progression class that can be accessed as early as level 3. Additionally, you can exploit your vestiges for an extra spell slot, and get free metamagic a couple times per day along with other minor boosts. Playing a binder is actually just as much intelligence intensive as it is charisma intensive due to skill point requirements, so Wizard and wu jen are actually better choices than spontaneous casters since they can use quicken spell and metamagic without increasing cast times.

You will most likely bind Karsus and Naberius which gives you a whole host of buffs to your spellcasting, magic item using, and skill using.

If you don't mind a single caster level hit this works out to be significantly stronger than straight Wizard or Wu Jen.[/spoiler]

Champion of Gwynharwyf (BoED)
[spoiler]Logical Entry: Barbarian, possibly multiclassed with something else like Knight or crusader.

You have to take a couple of so-so feats to get in, but this class continues to advance rage progression (most important barbarian class feature), has a d12 hit die and full base attack bonus progression, and gives you a whole host of other class features that are better than straight barbarian. The stand out ones are Smite Evil (cha based) and spellcasting (Wis based). I believe that the spells can be cast while raging. There is a bit of MAD involved (I recommend ~14 Wisdom and some points in charisma), but this is way better than straight barbarian.[/spoiler]

Hulking Hurler (Complete Warrior)
[spoiler]Logical Entry: Something big, most likely with Barbarian levels. A permanently enlarged Goliath/human/orc/dwarf might work with DM's permission, otherwise go for Half Ogre.

The hulking hurler allows you to throw ridiculously sized objects that deal absurd amounts of damage. There are ways to get potentially hundreds of D6s depending on your strength. Then you get a couple throwing tricks like the one that knocks the enemy prone or allows you to power attack. Massive damage output in 3 levels, and a d10 hit dice and full bab progression.

Quote from: bearsarebrown
Improvised weapon damage is based on weight.
400lb is 5d6, each 200lb more does another 1d6. this doesn't sound crazy, does it? It is.

Let's say you're an Half-Ogre barbarian at ECL 10. Your strength score is

18  Base
+6  Enchantment
+2  Level
+6  Half Ogre
+4  Rage
=38 when raging.

Your medium load is 6400. 35d6 damage. This is on a build that many wouldn't even call optimized. What happens if you optimize? Shooting from the hip here...;

Illumian Archvist 17/Hulking Hurler 3

_18 Base (polymorphed into a Centaur)
+32 Giant Size
+06 Item
+05 Tome
+05 Level
=66 and you're a Colossal Quadruped.

You're medium load is 3766272lb. 18834d6. Who even cares what the strength bonus is, that's an average 65919 damage. Oh, yeah, you have 9th level spells. I didn't even feel like finding a better Quadruped form.
[/spoiler]

Planar Sheperd (Faiths of Ebberron)
[spoiler]Logical Entry: Druid 5 I think is the level you need to hit

This fully advances all of the three main druid class fatures (Spellcasting, Wildshaping, Animal Companion, you know those ones that are stronger than most other classes). And you can make planar bubbles a few times per day, causing your favored plane to appear in an area around you and cause negative effects on your enemies (which you of course are immune to). And what do you give up? Just that timeless body crap. Better than straight druid.

Planar Shepard
[spoiler]
Pros:
  • Amazingly easy entry (one setting tied feat, 8 ranks in a skill you were taking anyway,  4 in one you may or may no have)
  • 10/10 casting, continued Fort and Will saves, .75 BAB, d8 hd and 4+ skill points make the chasis a good one, identical to the regular druid in most ways
  • Continues your powerful abilities while neglecting your pointless ones (continues Wild Shape, Animal Companion, Spellcasting)
  • Makes Wild Shape AMAZINGLY good (Wild Shape to Outsiders in particular)
  • Planar Bubble
  • Planar Bubble
  • Planar Bubble (Yes, it deserves three mentions. Even if you aren't using 10:1 cheese, it's DAMN useful)

Cons
  • RAW does not say you can be resurrected as an outsider, but I believe that may be part of being a native outsider.
  • No Full BAB (Which is pretty minor, really
[/spoiler]

Rainbow Servant (Complete Divine)
[spoiler]Logical Entry:  Warmage 1-6. You want Versatile spellcaster for sure, and you may want to use Primitive spellcaster or Heighten Spell or something to get early entry. I recommend being a dragonwrought kobold with a sovereign archetype (Races of the Dragon, Dragons of Ebberron)

There is some controversy on whether this class is 10/10 spellcasting as specified in the text or 6/10 as shown on table. Some Dms take an intermediate view and rule it as 8/10. Either way, this lets you cast the entire cleric spell list and a few domains and their powers. Spontaneously off the entire list. Use Versatile Spellcaster to fuse lower level spell slots for higher level spells. If you are a Great Wyrm Dragonwrought Kobold, you can pick up the Child of Ebberron archetype to add druid spells, or Wyrm of War for fighter bonus feats, or whatever you like. And of course, you still have your warmage spells, some of which are pretty good (Sleep, Evard's black tentacles, Solid Fog).[/spoiler]

Runescarred Berserker (Unnapproachable East)
[spoiler]Logical Entry: You want some barbarian levels for sure. I would probably do a multiclass barbarian/warblade simply because warblade is normally better.

Like Champion of That-place-I-can't-spell, this has full BAB progression, and progresses Rage (most important barbarian class feature!). 4 skill points per level and d10 hit die. Also like champion, you get some spellcasting keyed to wisdom, and scribe them in the form of runescars (basically scrolls carved into your body, it deals some damage when you prepare them). You can cast them in rage. You need Iron Will and Survivor feats to enter, which are not that good, but the Berserker lodge feats are great. You also gain some damage reduction and natural armor. Much better than straight barbarian.[/spoiler]

Ur-priest (BoVD and Complete Divine)
[spoiler] You need a lot of spellcraft to enter, and a couple weak feats. I think the best entries are beguiler (simply due to the amount of skill points availbable), Ardent (Wisdom synergy), and Spell to Power Erudite (because it has spellcraft as class skill and its awesome) but anything works so long as you have the feats and skill points to spare

This is a super evil cleric that steals spells from the gods. You get 9th level spells in 10 levels. Turning attempts at level 2 are your gate way to Divine Feats. You get some other neat abilities later that let you steal abilities, but usually you PrC out of this class after level 2 and go for Mystic Theurge or Psychic Theurge or whatever. This makes otherwise weak dual progression classes like the Theurges, Eldritch Disciple, and Tenebrous Apostate worth playing. Pretty much better than any class played straight to 20, even if it creates some MAD issues[/spoiler]

Soul Eater- (BoVD)
[spoiler]
Negative levels on touch, no save. All full BAB, all good saves,  4 skills, and a d8.

1 level dip; +1 BAB, +2 to all saves, negative level on any unarmed strike or natural attack, no save. Totemist Monk anyone? It's not hard to throw 8 negative levels out, with no save to resist. You don't even need to good damage, just hit them HD many times and that's it. A one level dip in Swordsage gets you the WF too, and Tiger Claw has maneuvers to attack a buttload of times per turn.
6 level investment; Anyone you kill with negative levels you can shape change into (gaining all class abilities) for a 24 hour duration. This is so fucking good I'm not going to bother expanding on it.
7 level investment; You know those negative levels? Yeah, now it's 2 per attack. You have 4 iterative, 2 flurry, 1 snap kick, 1 haste, 2 claws, 1 bite, 1 slam (not hard at all to get by level 12). that's 12 attacks per turn, that's 24 negative levels. Anything not immune with under 24HD is dead.
9 level investment; Anyone you kill with negative levels becomes a wight under your control. No restrictions. EASIEST WORLD DOMINATION EVER. Jesus christ this is strong.
Capstone; +2 to all DCs, and all SpA and Su may be used twice as often in a day. Off the top of my head, I can't think of anything, but I'm sure the Su ability can be broken to hell and back.
[/spoiler]

Void Disciple - bizarre signature ability that's ambiguous but potentially game-breaking. (CDiv)
[spoiler]
3) Void Suppression.  No-save-just-lose for 95% of the monsters out there.  Requires a melee touch attack.  Spectral Hand is (arguably, depending on your reading) your friend.

2) Moment of Clarity.  Grant an ally any feat for a few rounds.  Worth noting is that you specifically can't grant Ancestor feats, but Epic feats are, apparently, good to go.

1)  Sense Void.  Okay, so you can sense stuff anywhere except across planar boundaries, at the cost of a piddly Spellcraft check.  This raises a whole series of questions: can others sense you when you're like that?  Since you're leaving your body, can you use purely mental actions in that state?  Can you move around?  How long does it last?  Does it count as a divination effect?  What can block it?  RAW's lack of statement implies very dire answers...

- There's no listed method of detecting if someone else is using this.
- There's nothing preventing the use of mental actions in this state, and there's not even a mention of it requiring concentration.
- There's no method of moving (but see the previous)
- There's no limit on duration given.
- It's never referred to as a divination, nor as scrying, despite the obvious similarities.
- Given that, there's no RAW method I've heard of to block it, short of planar boundaries.  Illusions work, though.

In other words, it's potentially "Scry and Die" on steroids.


Conclusion: Void Disciple loses enough spell levels that it could be underpowered, depending on how Sense Void is ruled to work.  RAW is vague enough that most of the overpowered potential is based purely on the lack of defined limits.  I've personally seen this thing break campaigns though, and I wouldn't recommend it for general PC use.  Game-breaking Up Two to a barely passable Down One, depending on how Sense Void is used.
[/spoiler]

Sentinel of Bharrai - gives your Wizard some Druid awesomeness with full Wiz casting progression (BoED)
[spoiler]
Most spellcasters can enter this class pretty easily, as it only requires some common knowledge skills, spellcraft, and a couple poor feats.  Gets full spellcasting progression and class features at every level.  Granted, a number of the class features are more "cool" than "useful", but the energy resistances are pretty nice, as they tend to be pretty expensive otherwise at most levels.  This alone is probably enough to at least justify the cost of entry for most Wizards.

The kicker is "Bear Shape".  It's highly reminiscent of the Druid's Wildshape, only bear-specific but without all the limitations.  It's at-will (meaning infinite easy free healing), has unlimited duration, you can still speak in that form, you can communicate with other bears, and most of your gear doesn't meld (but check animal item slots).  There's virtually no reason whatsoever not to keep it up 24/7, letting you completely replace your physical ability scores with that of the bear of your choice, making Venerable all that much more seductive.  All that, and uninterrupted Wizard casting.

In other words, refer to this:
[spoiler][/spoiler]
(except full Wizard spellcasting instead of guns)


Conclusion: Sentinal of Bharrai won't break your game, but it's a pretty hefty advantage.  Low +2, high +1.
[/spoiler]



Soulbow - saving the Soulknife since 2006 (CPsi)
[spoiler]
Easy to enter for a Soulknife, and good enough to justify taking that horrible class just to get in.  Possibly the best archery PrC in the game.

- Gains an free +5 equivalent  weapon over ten levels, improvable to +9 if you use pure Soulknife for the rest of the levels, that function inside an AMF/NPF.  Enhancement abilities limited though.

- Gains five bonus feats off an decent list that specifically encourages expanding the options using other books

- Gains Wis to damage, making for excellent synergy with "Zen Archery".

- Gains Close Combat Shot (since you can't always 5-foot-step to avoid AoOs) and Phase Arrow (for when you really really really need to make that next shot).


Conclusion: Very good, and a strong addition to most teams, but still "just" an archery PrC, and no threat to campaign balance unless you consistently have enemies protected by AMFs.  "Up Two" mostly on the merits of what it does for the lowly Soulknife.  You don't need much to improve what they have, but this is a cut above.
[/spoiler]

Thrallherd (EPH)
[spoiler]Easy to get into, any manifester that knows 8 ranks in K(Psionics), 4 ranks of Diplomacy, Manifester level 5th and mindlink (Kashalatar might be able to get into it without spending a power known, check with your DM)

Same hitpoints, saves, bab, and skills as a telepath, 8/10 manifesting progression and... class features! A couple boosts to your dominating abilities is nice but the big one is COHORTS. Yep, you gain an extra character to round out your abilities at first level. Can I recommend a Cleric? Or perhaps you prefer the Ardent/Ur-priest cheese? Or how about an artificier? Your leadership score increases with Thrallherd level, and at 10th you get a second one, though you lose your second caster level.

Note that the way that your leadership score is calculated counts your thrallherd level twice which can result in a very high leadership score. Its easy to get a cohort to within 1 level of you, and a bunch of followers.

Its a tough call to say whether this or Anarchic initiate is the strongest Psionic PrC out there. But this is definitely the most frequently banned.[/spoiler]


Incantatrix
[spoiler]
Requirements
-Iron Will, which you can buy, and metamagic feats you're getting anyway
-Skill ranks in skills you're getting anyway

Class Features
-4 bonus metamagic feats
-Cooperative Metamagic : Not quite circle magic, but still sexy.
-Metamagic Effect : Persistification of any magical effect.  Iot7FV becomes even more powerful with this.
-Metamagic Spell Trigger : Not just for artificers!
-Seize Concentration : I'll take that Elemental Monolith, Mr. Druid!
-Instant Metamagic : Persisting without the Spellcraft roll!
-Snatch Spell : And I'll take that Choose Destiny too, Mr. Cheater of Mystra!
-Improved Metamagic : This is an epic feat FFS!

Drawbacks
-Loss of one school of magic.
-Getting DM smote for being stronger than most lesser deities.
[/spoiler]
« Last Edit: January 14, 2010, 06:29:16 PM by HCL »

HCL

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Re: Why up 2 tier prcs are up 2 tiers
« Reply #1 on: January 08, 2010, 01:47:29 PM »
Tainted Scholar (heroes of horror)
[spoiler]Easy entry requirements. The only hard thing is getting the taint/depravity mechanic approved in your game. You then get bonus vile feats for being tainted. Otherwise you just need 1st level arcane casting, 8 ranks concentration (there might be a way to cheese this through temporary hit die to get in at level 2) and 4 ranks knowledge: arcana

This is class is to loremaster what ur priest is to cleric. Its on friggin steroids. Your spellcasting is no longer tied to intelligence/charisma or what have you but to your depravity instead. And when you cast spells, you increase your depravity score. Good times being depraved. Oh, and your hit die gets kicked up to a d6. You get Contact other plane and Limited wish as spell like abilities, though they have some strings attached. Bardic knowledge just like loremaster. Full casting.

Then you get some nifty class features every couple levels from the secrets.

Blooded metamagic drains your constitution score to reduce metamagic cost. Did you take a binder level to bind Naberius? You will be healing that con damage momentarily. Oh, and if you take Improved binding you qualify for Anima mage.

Stanch is nice (like autosucceeding your autohypnosis check if you fall unconscious), death knell as an SLA can help.  Clarity of Truemadness and Wholesome corruption pad your saves. Bloodseeking spell is ok if you like direct damage dealers. Thicker than water is crap. Tainted knowledge gets you a bonus tainted feat, and Forbidden arcana gets you bonus lower level spell slots.

A crazy class (spellcasting tied to depravity is what really breaks it) and combines nicely with anima mage[/spoiler]

Shadowcraft Mage (Races of Stone)
[spoiler]Requires SF: Illusion, being a gnome (Forest or Whisper are best subraces), 4 ranks in hide and bluff, and you need shadow conjuration or shadow evocation along with a couple other illusion spells (silent image and greater mirror image are the typical choices). Best entry is beguiler or Illusionist. You are also going to want heighten spell (Not a requirement, but you should get it)

Full casting and 4 skill points per level (so those cross class ranks paid for themselves) with a d4 hit die. 1st level gets you Cloak of Shadows (passive concealment miss chance when its dark, nice). Second level gets you free silent spell applies to all illusions. OK.

Now at third level comes the kicker. You  can use Figment spells (Silent image and friends) to replicate most conjuration and evocation spells one level lower than the figment you are casting spontaneously, like Shadow evocation and shadow conjuration. The reality of the spell if the opponent fails their save is 10%*effective spell level of the figment.

Now, some other feats you are going to want is going to be Earth Sense and Earth spell (heighten spells by one level when standing on the ground) or Primitive Spellcaster if it is allowed. Then you can heighten spells another level or two to be casting ninth level conjuration and evocation spells at 90%+ reality.

Powerful Illusions at 4th level automatically gives you free extend on all your illusions.

Powerful Shadow magic increases the reality of all your shadow magic by 20% at 5th level.

The big question here is whether a shadow spell can be higher than 100% reality if the opponent fails their save. If your DM rules that it can, you want to try to get your opponents to make the saving throw (so don't crank it too high) and concentrate on getting your % reality up. The Shadowcrafter PrC combines nicely with this. Otherwise try to get your % reality to 100% or maximize the saving throw.

So the workhorse of this class is using Extended Silent Heightened Image spells to spontaneously cast conjurations and evocations. Or, you could of course use it ot make illusions. This can be way more powerful than your standard Conjurer/Evoker if you are creative with it.[/spoiler]
« Last Edit: January 14, 2010, 10:32:17 PM by HCL »

HCL

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Re: Why up 2 tier prcs are up 2 tiers
« Reply #2 on: January 08, 2010, 01:47:39 PM »
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HCL

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Re: Why up 2 tier prcs are up 2 tiers
« Reply #3 on: January 08, 2010, 01:47:50 PM »
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bearsarebrown

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Re: Why up 2 tier prcs are up 2 tiers
« Reply #4 on: January 08, 2010, 02:57:19 PM »
Gwyharwyf is a person not a place.  :P

Soul Eater- Negative levels on touch, no save. All full BAB, all good saves,  4 skills, and a d8. (BoVD)
[spoiler]1 level dip; +1 BAB, +2 to all saves, negative level on any unarmed strike or natural attack, no save. Totemist Monk anyone? It's not hard to throw 8 negative levels out, with no save to resist. You don't even need to good damage, just hit them HD many times and that's it. A one level dip in Swordsage gets you the WF too, and Tiger Claw has maneuvers to attack a buttload of times per turn.
6 level investment; Anyone you kill with negative levels you can shape change into (gaining all class abilities) for a 24 hour duration. This is so fucking good I'm not going to bother expanding on it.
7 level investment; You know those negative levels? Yeah, now it's 2 per attack. You have 4 iterative, 2 flurry, 1 snap kick, 1 haste, 2 claws, 1 bite, 1 slam (not hard at all to get by level 12). that's 12 attacks per turn, that's 24 negative levels. Anything not immune with under 24HD is dead.
9 level investment; Anyone you kill with negative levels becomes a wight under your control. No restrictions. EASIEST WORLD DOMINATION EVER. Jesus christ this is strong.
Capstone; +2 to all DCs, and all SpA and Su may be used twice as often in a day. Off the top of my head, I can't think of anything, but I'm sure the Su ability can be broken to hell and back.

The rest of the abilities are okay... not amazing because it's enchantment and that's probably going to be covered by items. 10d6 force beam, DC 20+Cha Reflex negates, and only twice per day, that's kinda crappy too.[/spoiler]

Hulking Hurler- Wizard did not do the math. Let's do some math. (CW)
[spoiler]Improvised weapon damage is based on weight.
400lb is 5d6, each 200lb more does another 1d6. this doesn't sound crazy, does it? It is.

Let's say you're an Half-Ogre barbarian at ECL 10. Your strength score is

18  Base
+6  Enchantment
+2  Level
+6  Half Ogre
+4  Rage
=38 when raging.

Your medium load is 6400. 35d6 damage. This is on a build that many wouldn't even call optimized. What happens if you optimize? Shooting from the hip here...;

Illumian Archvist 17/Hulking Hurler 3

_18 Base (polymorphed into a Centaur)
+32 Giant Size
+06 Item
+05 Tome
+05 Level
=66 and you're a Colossal Quadruped.

You're medium load is 3766272lb. 18834d6. Who even cares what the strength bonus is, that's an average 65919 damage. Oh, yeah, you have 9th level spells. I didn't even feel like finding a better Quadruped form.[/spoiler]
« Last Edit: January 13, 2010, 06:57:47 PM by bearsarebrown »

sonofzeal

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Re: Why up 2 tier prcs are up 2 tiers
« Reply #5 on: January 14, 2010, 02:17:26 AM »
Void Disciple - bizarre signature ability that's ambiguous but potentially game-breaking. (CDiv)
[spoiler]3) Void Suppression.  No-save-just-lose for 95% of the monsters out there.  Requires a melee touch attack.  Spectral Hand is (arguably, depending on your reading) your friend.

2) Moment of Clarity.  Grant an ally any feat for a few rounds.  Worth noting is that you specifically can't grant Ancestor feats, but Epic feats are, apparently, good to go.

1)  Sense Void.  Okay, so you can sense stuff anywhere except across planar boundaries, at the cost of a piddly Spellcraft check.  This raises a whole series of questions: can others sense you when you're like that?  Since you're leaving your body, can you use purely mental actions in that state?  Can you move around?  How long does it last?  Does it count as a divination effect?  What can block it?  RAW's lack of statement implies very dire answers...

- There's no listed method of detecting if someone else is using this.
- There's nothing preventing the use of mental actions in this state, and there's not even a mention of it requiring concentration.
- There's no method of moving (but see the previous)
- There's no limit on duration given.
- It's never referred to as a divination, nor as scrying, despite the obvious similarities.
- Given that, there's no RAW method I've heard of to block it, short of planar boundaries.  Illusions work, though.

In other words, it's potentially "Scry and Die" on steroids.


Conclusion: Void Disciple loses enough spell levels that it could be underpowered, depending on how Sense Void is ruled to work.  RAW is vague enough that most of the overpowered potential is based purely on the lack of defined limits.  I've personally seen this thing break campaigns though, and I wouldn't recommend it for general PC use.  Game-breaking Up Two to a barely passable Down One, depending on how Sense Void is used.
[/spoiler]


Sentinel of Bharrai - gives your Wizard some Druid awesomeness with full Wiz casting progression (BoED)
[spoiler]Most spellcasters can enter this class pretty easily, as it only requires some common knowledge skills, spellcraft, and a couple poor feats.  Gets full spellcasting progression and class features at every level.  Granted, a number of the class features are more "cool" than "useful", but the energy resistances are pretty nice, as they tend to be pretty expensive otherwise at most levels.  This alone is probably enough to at least justify the cost of entry for most Wizards.

The kicker is "Bear Shape".  It's highly reminiscent of the Druid's Wildshape, only bear-specific but without all the limitations.  It's at-will (meaning infinite easy free healing), has unlimited duration, you can still speak in that form, you can communicate with other bears, and most of your gear doesn't meld (but check animal item slots).  There's virtually no reason whatsoever not to keep it up 24/7, letting you completely replace your physical ability scores with that of the bear of your choice, making Venerable all that much more seductive.  All that, and uninterrupted Wizard casting.

In other words, refer to this:
[spoiler][/spoiler]
(except full Wizard spellcasting instead of guns)


Conclusion: Sentinal of Bharrai won't break your game, but it's a pretty hefty advantage.  Low +2, high +1.[/spoiler]



Soulbow - saving the Soulknife since 2006 (CPsi)
[spoiler]
Easy to enter for a Soulknife, and good enough to justify taking that horrible class just to get in.  Possibly the best archery PrC in the game.

- Gains an free +5 equivalent  weapon over ten levels, improvable to +9 if you use pure Soulknife for the rest of the levels, that function inside an AMF/NPF.  Enhancement abilities limited though.

- Gains five bonus feats off an decent list that specifically encourages expanding the options using other books

- Gains Wis to damage, making for excellent synergy with "Zen Archery".

- Gains Close Combat Shot (since you can't always 5-foot-step to avoid AoOs) and Phase Arrow (for when you really really really need to make that next shot).


Conclusion: Very good, and a strong addition to most teams, but still "just" an archery PrC, and no threat to campaign balance unless you consistently have enemies protected by AMFs.  "Up Two" mostly on the merits of what it does for the lowly Soulknife.  You don't need much to improve what they have, but this is a cut above.[/spoiler]

wackodraco

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Re: Why up 2 tier prcs are up 2 tiers
« Reply #6 on: January 14, 2010, 03:01:07 AM »
Planar Shepard
[spoiler]
Pros:
  • Amazingly easy entry (one setting tied feat, 8 ranks in a skill you were taking anyway,  4 in one you may or may no have)
  • 10/10 casting, continued Fort and Will saves, .75 BAB, d8 hd and 4+ skill points make the chasis a good one, identical to the regular druid in most ways
  • Continues your powerful abilities while neglecting your pointless ones (continues Wild Shape, Animal Companion, Spellcasting)
  • Makes Wild Shape AMAZINGLY good (Wild Shape to Outsiders in particular)
  • Planar Bubble
  • Planar Bubble
  • Planar Bubble (Yes, it deserves three mentions. Even if you aren't using 10:1 cheese, it's DAMN useful)

Cons
  • RAW does not say you can be resurrected as an outsider, but I believe that may be part of being a native outsider.
  • No Full BAB (Which is pretty minor, really

Conclusion
The planar Shepard only improves the druid mechanically; there is nothing to be lost. Even Wildshape Rangers will benefit from it, it's that good. You'd have to try to make one suck.

[/spoiler]
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Negative Zero

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Re: Why up 2 tier prcs are up 2 tiers
« Reply #7 on: January 14, 2010, 03:14:41 AM »
Oddly enough, you don't become a native outsider with Planar Shepherd. You become an outsider native to your plane of choice - a "native outsider" is one who is from the Material Plane.

HCL

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Re: Why up 2 tier prcs are up 2 tiers
« Reply #8 on: January 14, 2010, 11:58:43 AM »
Updated with your guys posts, I will also put in thrallherd.

snakeman830

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Re: Why up 2 tier prcs are up 2 tiers
« Reply #9 on: January 14, 2010, 01:53:07 PM »
Thrallherd thralls are still limited to 1 level below the Thrallherd (2 below for the second one).  It is, however, theoretically possible to have followers just as strong or stronger than your cohort if you have ways of cheesing out a high Leadership score in the early levels.

Woth noting is that any Kalashtar of 5th level or higher than can meet the skill prerequisites and take the feat can enter.  The psi-like ability provides them both with the ability to manifest the power and with the manifester level to enter (although I would still enter with psion levels to get the most out of it).
I am constantly amazed by how many DM's ban Tomb of Battle.  The book doesn't even exist!

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KellKheraptis

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Re: Why up 2 tier prcs are up 2 tiers
« Reply #10 on: January 14, 2010, 02:03:12 PM »
Incantatrix
[spoiler]Requirements
-Iron Will, which you can buy, and metamagic feats you're getting anyway
-Skill ranks in skills you're getting anyway

Class Features
-4 bonus metamagic feats
-Cooperative Metamagic : Not quite circle magic, but still sexy.
-Metamagic Effect : Persistification of any magical effect.  Iot7FV becomes even more powerful with this.
-Metamagic Spell Trigger : Not just for artificers!
-Seize Concentration : I'll take that Elemental Monolith, Mr. Druid!
-Instant Metamagic : Persisting without the Spellcraft roll!
-Snatch Spell : And I'll take that Choose Destiny too, Mr. Cheater of Mystra!
-Improved Metamagic : This is an epic feat FFS!

Drawbacks
-Loss of one school of magic.
-Getting DM smote for being stronger than most lesser deities.
[/spoiler]
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HCL

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Re: Why up 2 tier prcs are up 2 tiers
« Reply #11 on: January 14, 2010, 07:23:23 PM »
Added in your incantrix entry, also included Tainted Scholar and Shadowcraft Mage

snakeman830

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Re: Why up 2 tier prcs are up 2 tiers
« Reply #12 on: January 14, 2010, 07:37:48 PM »
Shadowcraft Mage has a mistake.  You never need to give up a school of magic like you say.
I am constantly amazed by how many DM's ban Tomb of Battle.  The book doesn't even exist!

Quotes:[spoiler]
By yes, she means no.
That explains so much about my life.
hiicantcomeupwithacharacterthatisntaghostwhyisthatamijustretardedorsomething
Why would you even do this? It hurts my eyes and looks like you ate your keyboard before suffering an attack of explosive diarrhea.
[/spoiler]

If using Genesis to hide your phylactry, set it at -300 degrees farenheit.  See how do-gooders fare with a liquid atmosphere.

Havok4

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Re: Why up 2 tier prcs are up 2 tiers
« Reply #13 on: January 14, 2010, 07:44:06 PM »
Shadowcraft Mage has a mistake.  You never need to give up a school of magic like you say.
Yeah, that is a weird error. Also the class gives something very valuable to any character, on the spot versatility, it can allow spontaneous access to a huge amount of useful spells.

HCL

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Re: Why up 2 tier prcs are up 2 tiers
« Reply #14 on: January 14, 2010, 10:33:09 PM »
Shadowcraft Mage has a mistake.  You never need to give up a school of magic like you say.
Yeah, that is a weird error. Also the class gives something very valuable to any character, on the spot versatility, it can allow spontaneous access to a huge amount of useful spells.

Thats bizzarre, I guess I was thinking of another prestige class but I don't know what. Probably initiate of the sevenfold veil.

sonofzeal

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Re: Why up 2 tier prcs are up 2 tiers
« Reply #15 on: January 14, 2010, 11:05:26 PM »
Shadowcraft Mage has a mistake.  You never need to give up a school of magic like you say.
Yeah, that is a weird error. Also the class gives something very valuable to any character, on the spot versatility, it can allow spontaneous access to a huge amount of useful spells.

Thats bizzarre, I guess I was thinking of another prestige class but I don't know what. Probably initiate of the sevenfold veil.
You were probably thinking of the Shadowcrafter (Und), an entirely separate PrC from the Shadowcraft Mage, just like the Trapsmith and Master Trapsmith are unrelated.

Havok4

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Re: Why up 2 tier prcs are up 2 tiers
« Reply #16 on: January 15, 2010, 12:09:02 AM »
Shadowcraft Mage has a mistake.  You never need to give up a school of magic like you say.
Yeah, that is a weird error. Also the class gives something very valuable to any character, on the spot versatility, it can allow spontaneous access to a huge amount of useful spells.

Thats bizzarre, I guess I was thinking of another prestige class but I don't know what. Probably initiate of the sevenfold veil.
You were probably thinking of the Shadowcrafter (Und), an entirely separate PrC from the Shadowcraft Mage, just like the Trapsmith and Master Trapsmith are unrelated.
Shadowcrafter does not cause you to lose a school either.

sonofzeal

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Re: Why up 2 tier prcs are up 2 tiers
« Reply #17 on: January 15, 2010, 12:11:26 AM »
Shadowcrafter does not cause you to lose a school either.
Ah, well, I don't have that book.  It just seemed the most logical one to get confused with Shadowcraft Mage.  =P

KellKheraptis

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Re: Why up 2 tier prcs are up 2 tiers
« Reply #18 on: January 15, 2010, 12:55:32 AM »
He was confusing it with Incantatrix after reading about my SCM Incantatrix, maybe?  :P
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Re: Why up 2 tier prcs are up 2 tiers
« Reply #19 on: January 15, 2010, 06:20:12 PM »
Thrallherd : Knowledge affiliation makes all your followers into powerful debuffers.  An optimized thrallherd with the power of EDUCATION can defeat a truly sickening number of defenses, and reduce an archmage into a commoner.
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