Author Topic: Succubus optimisation?  (Read 11274 times)

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Littha

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Succubus optimisation?
« on: January 07, 2010, 09:26:18 PM »
Hello all, been reading tis forum for a couple days now and i wanted to ask a question (because i cant find a handbook for it  :P).

Im DMing a campagn at level 10 and im giving one of my characters an ECL 14 succubus to play with, idea is that she is working for the big bad guy and people would be suspicious if controlled her. However for this to work properly she will have to remain in an alternate form for 98% of the game and at level 12 she has the BAB of 6+ 2 class levels.
Basically i need some way of making the alternate form not stand out from the party by being too useless or using SLAs...

Any help would be appreciated though and i have access through friends/buying books to pretty much all of the 3.5 and most of the 3.0 books.

Praef

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Re: Succubus optimisation?
« Reply #1 on: January 08, 2010, 02:21:02 AM »
couple of things:

Mark of Nessus (fiendish codex 2)
Paladin 2
corrupt avenger 3 (heroes of horror)
Iajutsu master
Marshall
Arcane Duelist 2 (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20030224a)

pretty much just look through the x stat to y bonus and find everything that adds charisma to anything. 

Runestar

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Re: Succubus optimisation?
« Reply #2 on: January 08, 2010, 02:51:37 AM »
A demon who pays fealty to a devil prince?  :p
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Praef

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Re: Succubus optimisation?
« Reply #3 on: January 08, 2010, 03:19:39 AM »
eh, its dnd.  if a kobold can become a god, anything can happen.

Tenebrous Apostate

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Re: Succubus optimisation?
« Reply #4 on: January 08, 2010, 09:39:40 AM »
As If optimizing a Succubus is hard work... Make her a Warlock and let her be the party face. She does not have to shapeshift even (what the frag are those wings on you lass? My fell flight invocation darlin..)
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Prime32

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Re: Succubus optimisation?
« Reply #5 on: January 08, 2010, 09:48:53 AM »
You could try building a character who has similar abilities to a succubus. Start with changeling, probably.

Or you could try using some of Tome of Fiends material. Apply the Harmless Form and Wings of Evil feats. Enough levels of True Fiend for Telepathy, and the Violation sphere to add detect thoughts at will and some other thematic SLAs.


So your build might go
CE Female changeling True Fiend 5/Conduit of the Lower Planes 2/Other classes 5 (maybe unarmed swordsage)
Feats: Greater Teleport, Otherworldly, Wings of Evil
Spheres:
« Last Edit: January 08, 2010, 11:24:35 AM by Prime32 »
My work
The tier system in a nutshell:
[spoiler]Tier 6: A cartographer.
Tier 5: An expert cartographer or a decent marksman.
Tier 4: An expert marksman.
Tier 3: An expert marksman, cartographer and chef who can tie strong knots and is trained in hostage negotiation or a marksman so good he can shoot down every bullet fired by a minigun while armed with a rusted single-shot pistol that veers to the left.
Tier 2: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything, or the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.
Tier 1: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything and the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.[/spoiler]

RobbyPants

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Re: Succubus optimisation?
« Reply #6 on: January 08, 2010, 10:33:46 AM »
If you don't mind using some homebrew stuff, Frank and K came up with a way to make weird monsters a bit more playable in their Races of War book.  The idea is to assume using the elite array for the monster to lower their ability score adjustments.  You try to gear the PC at the CR of the creature +1.  I'll quote the section here:

Quote from: FrankTrollman
Converting Monsters Into Characters:
Method 1: The Easy Way

What's cool is they even used the succubus as one of their examples, so the work is already done!  So, the race printed is an 8th level PC, which would allow two class levels for a level 10 PC.
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
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[/spoiler]

Prime32

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Re: Succubus optimisation?
« Reply #7 on: January 08, 2010, 11:27:51 AM »
And "the hard way" would be the same as above, but with two extra Hit Dice (making its HD equal to its level).

There's also a cleric PrC in Dragon which lets characters transform into succubi.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2010, 11:37:56 AM by Prime32 »
My work
The tier system in a nutshell:
[spoiler]Tier 6: A cartographer.
Tier 5: An expert cartographer or a decent marksman.
Tier 4: An expert marksman.
Tier 3: An expert marksman, cartographer and chef who can tie strong knots and is trained in hostage negotiation or a marksman so good he can shoot down every bullet fired by a minigun while armed with a rusted single-shot pistol that veers to the left.
Tier 2: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything, or the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.
Tier 1: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything and the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.[/spoiler]

RobbyPants

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Re: Succubus optimisation?
« Reply #8 on: January 08, 2010, 11:33:43 AM »
Thanks.  I forget to paste the part about HD as well.
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

Littha

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Re: Succubus optimisation?
« Reply #9 on: January 08, 2010, 04:02:21 PM »
Thanks for the help, i have no problem writing up a succubus as a character the only issue i have is the 2 class levels i can give her and the feats. I dont really want to make another character into a succubus more hide one in a party of adventurers without their knowing it.

what i have so far is:
Code: [Select]
Selinis (level 12)
Succubus (Chaotic Evil) Worships Graz'zt

HP: 39 (6d8+12)
Initiative +3
STR 12 +1 AC:22 (10+3+9+)
DEX 16 +3 Speed 30/50(Average)
CON 14 +2 DR: 10/Cold Iron
INT 19 +4 SR: 18
WIS 12 +1 Immune to Electricity and Poison
CHA 31 +10 Resistance to Acid, Fire and Cold 10

Saves Class Stat Gear Total
Fort +5 +2 +0 +7
Ref +5 +3 +0 +8
Will +5 +1 +0 +6


Base Attack :+6/+1

Attacks to hit damage crit type
Claws +9 1d3+1     x2 Slashing

Feats:

Equipment

Abilities:
Tounges (permanant)
Natural and weapon attacks are treated as being chaotic and evil for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction.
Darkvision 60 ft
Telepathy 100ft
+8 to listen and spot
+10 to disguise while using Change Shape

Supernatural
DC 23 Energy drain and suggestion with some act of passion
Alternate Form

Spell like abilities. At Will
Charm Monster (DC 24)
Detect Good (DC 22)
Detect Thoughts (DC 22)
Etherial Jaunt (up to 50lbs of objects only)
Suggestion (DC 23)
Greater Teleport (up to 50lbs of objects only)
Summon Tanar'ri (Vrock, 30% sucess 3rd level spell)
Caster Level of 12

I should probably have named this thread somthing to do with alternate form optimizing as that is what i really need. An alternate form plus equipment and feats that will try to compensate for the inability to use most of the succubus powers. I am looking into Charisma to X bonuses atm but could probably use some help with equipment.

thanks again and sorry if i confused anyone


Prime32

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Re: Succubus optimisation?
« Reply #10 on: January 08, 2010, 05:10:43 PM »
Thanks for the help, i have no problem writing up a succubus as a character the only issue i have is the 2 class levels i can give her and the feats. I dont really want to make another character into a succubus more hide one in a party of adventurers without their knowing it.
I was saying that if you essentially make your own version of a succubus from scratch using Tome classes then it will be more similar to normal PCs in abilities and harder to detect (not to mention stronger), plus it will have additional abilities which the PCs won't recognise as succubus ones.

The Races of War stuff Robby mentioned will make it much easier for the succubus to survive and fit in (since high LA really screws you over). And if you use Method 2 there won't even be a discrepancy in Hit Dice which savvy players could pick up on.

You were going to treat this an ECL12 character - it's really more balanced if you treat it as an ECL8 character, especially if you add two Hit Dice. If you do that, you can fit in an extra four levels of stuff for the alternate form to use.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2010, 05:20:16 PM by Prime32 »
My work
The tier system in a nutshell:
[spoiler]Tier 6: A cartographer.
Tier 5: An expert cartographer or a decent marksman.
Tier 4: An expert marksman.
Tier 3: An expert marksman, cartographer and chef who can tie strong knots and is trained in hostage negotiation or a marksman so good he can shoot down every bullet fired by a minigun while armed with a rusted single-shot pistol that veers to the left.
Tier 2: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything, or the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.
Tier 1: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything and the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.[/spoiler]

Praef

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Re: Succubus optimisation?
« Reply #11 on: January 08, 2010, 08:16:58 PM »
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4340.0

Here's another one.  Worst comes to worst you can just charm all the pcs into forgetting you're a demon or some such nonsense of that order.  Or pick up Profession (prostitute).  That might explain things to the pcs.

What you have to think about if disguising this dudette is the evil and chaotic subtypes, obviously that you're a demon, and your much lower hit die. 

Prime32

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Re: Succubus optimisation?
« Reply #12 on: January 08, 2010, 08:20:15 PM »
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4340.0

Here's another one.  Worst comes to worst you can just charm all the pcs into forgetting you're a demon or some such nonsense of that order.  Or pick up Profession (prostitute).  That might explain things to the pcs.

What you have to think about if disguising this dudette is the evil and chaotic subtypes, obviously that you're a demon, and your much lower hit die.  
There isn't any room for Littha to add class levels without using Tome ECL calculation (an even then there's not many), so that thread's not as helpful as it could be.

...yeah, I'm not sure what to suggest other than a hat of disguise (+10 Disguise bonus stacks with existing change shape), but you probably don't roll Disguise checks for other PCs anyway. She could claim that her natural shapeshifting abilities are part of the hat's effect though, meaning she can still use them.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2010, 08:22:56 PM by Prime32 »
My work
The tier system in a nutshell:
[spoiler]Tier 6: A cartographer.
Tier 5: An expert cartographer or a decent marksman.
Tier 4: An expert marksman.
Tier 3: An expert marksman, cartographer and chef who can tie strong knots and is trained in hostage negotiation or a marksman so good he can shoot down every bullet fired by a minigun while armed with a rusted single-shot pistol that veers to the left.
Tier 2: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything, or the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.
Tier 1: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything and the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.[/spoiler]

Littha

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Re: Succubus optimisation?
« Reply #13 on: January 08, 2010, 10:52:42 PM »
With the Races of War stuff i have rounded out the character. now as it said CR+1 for player characters and this character will really only be a player until the final fight i went with level 15 succubus. Decided on Ur-Priest as it will get me level 6 casting which is really strong considering the rest of the party will be level 10-12

Code: [Select]
Selinis (level 14)
Succubus/ Ur-priest 6 (Chaotic Evil) Worships Graz'zt

HP: 71 (11d8+24)
Initiative +1
STR 13 +1 AC:20 (10+1+9+)
DEX 13 +1 Speed 30/50(Average)
CON 14 +2 DR: 10/Cold Iron or Good
INT 16 +3 SR: 18
WIS 14 +2 Immune to Electricity and Poison
CHA 28 +9 Resistance to Acid, Fire and Cold 10

Saves Class Stat Gear Total
Fort          +7 +2 +0 +9
Ref          +7 +1 +0 +8
Will          +10 +2 +0 +12


Base Attack :+10/+5

Attacks to hit damage crit type
Claws +11         1d3+1     x2 Slashing

Feats:
Iron Will
Spell Focus(Evil)
+
+
+

Equipment

Abilities:
Tounges (permanant)
Natural and weapon attacks are treated as being chaotic and evil for the purposes of overcoming damage reduction.
Darkvision 60 ft
Telepathy 100ft
+8 to listen and spot
+10 to disguise while using Change Shape

Supernatural
DC 23 Energy drain and suggestion with some act of passion
Alternate Form

Spell like abilities. At Will
Charm Monster (DC 23)
Detect Good (DC 21)
Detect Thoughts (DC 21)
Etherial Jaunt (up to 50lbs of objects only)
Suggestion (DC 22)
Greater Teleport (up to 50lbs of objects only)
Summon Tanar'ri (Vrock, 30% sucess 3rd level spell)
Caster Level of 12

It would be really helpful if i could get the casting to work off CHA but i cant see any way to do that, as the DM i can just make it do that i suppose but that seems like cheating. I did look at spontaneous Divine casting but for some reason that dosent make the class use CHA as a casting stat unlike any spontaneous caster i have seen so far.

So 3 more feats (Divine meta-magic/extend/persist?) plus equipment to go.

Will probably end up cutting it to 2 ur priest levels for the rebuke and then 4 prestige levels with interesting abilities that i can actually qualify for.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2010, 11:00:25 PM by Littha »

Prime32

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Re: Succubus optimisation?
« Reply #14 on: January 08, 2010, 10:58:47 PM »
Consider replacing some ur-priest levels with a PrC that advances divine casting. And take Practiced Spellcaster so that her spells are CL10 (which should match the other characters in the party).

EDIT: Ah, here's a way to make the casting Cha-based. Sorcerer 1, Precocious Apprentice, and the geomancer PrC.

EDIT2: The reason Races of War says to increase the CR for PCs is because PCs get to roll stats rather than the standard array, and they get +1 to an ability score every four levels. Those ability scores should be higher (subtract 10 from the basic succubus's score to find the racial bonus, subtract another 1 if the number is odd, then roll for abilities or use pointbuy as you prefer).
« Last Edit: January 08, 2010, 11:06:30 PM by Prime32 »
My work
The tier system in a nutshell:
[spoiler]Tier 6: A cartographer.
Tier 5: An expert cartographer or a decent marksman.
Tier 4: An expert marksman.
Tier 3: An expert marksman, cartographer and chef who can tie strong knots and is trained in hostage negotiation or a marksman so good he can shoot down every bullet fired by a minigun while armed with a rusted single-shot pistol that veers to the left.
Tier 2: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything, or the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.
Tier 1: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything and the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.[/spoiler]

Littha

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Re: Succubus optimisation?
« Reply #15 on: January 08, 2010, 11:01:41 PM »
oh wow you posted just as i was editing to say about the prestige classes :lol

Prime32

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Re: Succubus optimisation?
« Reply #16 on: January 08, 2010, 11:08:41 PM »
Isn't there some way to make all your spells [Evil]? You already have Spell Focus (evil) as an ur-priest prereq...
My work
The tier system in a nutshell:
[spoiler]Tier 6: A cartographer.
Tier 5: An expert cartographer or a decent marksman.
Tier 4: An expert marksman.
Tier 3: An expert marksman, cartographer and chef who can tie strong knots and is trained in hostage negotiation or a marksman so good he can shoot down every bullet fired by a minigun while armed with a rusted single-shot pistol that veers to the left.
Tier 2: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything, or the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.
Tier 1: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything and the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.[/spoiler]

Littha

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Re: Succubus optimisation?
« Reply #17 on: January 08, 2010, 11:31:15 PM »
Metamagic Corrupt spell would work unfortunately its +1 to spell level, it does make half the damage of the spell bypass energy resistance though.

deuxhero

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Re: Succubus optimisation?
« Reply #18 on: January 08, 2010, 11:43:31 PM »
BoEF likely has stuff on them, though I wouldn't know.

PhaedrusXY

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Re: Succubus optimisation?
« Reply #19 on: January 09, 2010, 12:48:16 AM »
Isn't there some way to make all your spells [Evil]? You already have Spell Focus (evil) as an ur-priest prereq...
I remember seeing something in one of the Tomes that did that. I think it was a feat in the Tome of Fiends.
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]