Author Topic: Please help me Min/Max this low level, low-stated Cleric  (Read 12090 times)

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wotmaniac

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Re: Please help me Min/Max this low level, low-stated Cleric
« Reply #40 on: January 07, 2010, 05:42:49 AM »
Okay, I have a better understand now. Are there any other hidden rules?

 Go full bore summoner cleric that crafts stuff in his spare time. You don't have the hp to be up front. You don't have the feats to spell cast and fight effectively. You need to borrow power from as many sources as possible.

Human Cleric
1) SpF: Conj, Augment Summon
3) Improved Initiative/Brew Potion/Craft Weapon/Craft Armor (Whatever you feel is more important)
6) Leadership/Craft Wondrous Item

if you go this route, I'd spend all my feats after this on trying to reduce crafting times/costs (though I think most of those are Eberron and Drag.Mag.  :()

[spoiler]
If you stop ignoring 289 pages telling what the intent is to stretch "more power" in your own god complexion of your interpretation trumps all to cover ability adjustments from aging then I will ignore a quarter page of rules that exist within a sidebar.
I think in this case the grammar is less important than whether the Str and Dex bonus provided to your created undead scales.

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GawainBS

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Re: Please help me Min/Max this low level, low-stated Cleric
« Reply #41 on: January 07, 2010, 06:25:49 AM »
Anyone else getting twitchy about the DM calling Tome of Battle unbalanced?  :twitch

wotmaniac

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Re: Please help me Min/Max this low level, low-stated Cleric
« Reply #42 on: January 07, 2010, 09:38:48 AM »
Anyone else getting twitchy about the DM calling Tome of Battle unbalanced?  :twitch
well, in a world where casters are smashed to bits with the nerf-bat, then it kinda is -- ToB goes a long way to bring martial characters up to par with casters; when you cut the casters balls off, then ToB isn't really needed.  :D


on a serious note -- this guy should just go all out and run Iron Heroes (or maybe even Midnight).  It would have the effect that he is looking for, without all the contrived b.s. that he's having to make up as he goes along (which would give the players honest expectations, and a tangible concept to wrap their brains around).

[spoiler]
If you stop ignoring 289 pages telling what the intent is to stretch "more power" in your own god complexion of your interpretation trumps all to cover ability adjustments from aging then I will ignore a quarter page of rules that exist within a sidebar.
I think in this case the grammar is less important than whether the Str and Dex bonus provided to your created undead scales.

Greenbound Summoning RAI
Expanded Gestalt
More Savage Progressions[/spoiler]
Report any wrongs I have done here.

Hallack

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Re: Please help me Min/Max this low level, low-stated Cleric
« Reply #43 on: January 07, 2010, 10:54:57 AM »
Anyone else getting twitchy about the DM calling Tome of Battle unbalanced?  :twitch
well, in a world where casters are smashed to bits with the nerf-bat, then it kinda is -- ToB goes a long way to bring martial characters up to par with casters; when you cut the casters balls off, then ToB isn't really needed.  :D

But...but... there is a swordsage in the party!!! ???
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GawainBS

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Re: Please help me Min/Max this low level, low-stated Cleric
« Reply #44 on: January 07, 2010, 10:56:07 AM »
Anyone else getting twitchy about the DM calling Tome of Battle unbalanced?  :twitch
well, in a world where casters are smashed to bits with the nerf-bat, then it kinda is -- ToB goes a long way to bring martial characters up to par with casters; when you cut the casters balls off, then ToB isn't really needed.  :D

But...but... there is a swordsage in the party!!! ???

You should hear how he's treated...

Runestar

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Re: Please help me Min/Max this low level, low-stated Cleric
« Reply #45 on: January 07, 2010, 11:22:26 AM »
Quote
Anyone else getting twitchy about the DM calling Tome of Battle unbalanced?  Twitch

Get used to it. I have done my fair share defending it on other forums.  :rollseyes

But I am not sure what the OP's problem is. Those are still fairly decent stats for a cleric (at least you got a 17 in your wis). Your buffs should be able to make up for the lack of gear. Even as a straight cleric, he should be able to pull his own weight in the party, if not more (given that melee classes would suffer even more from lack of magic gear).

But I think you will need to focus more on buffs to augment your party, and stay out of combat for a while, since you appear quite squishy compared to the rest of your party (so whatever they can take on; you can't, at least not yet).
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Havok4

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Re: Please help me Min/Max this low level, low-stated Cleric
« Reply #46 on: January 07, 2010, 12:55:57 PM »
Wow, I am in awe of how bad and tyrannical this DM appears to be. I recommend having a fairly strong focus on defense to try and stay alive in what looks like it will be a nasty campaign.

kevin_video

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Re: Please help me Min/Max this low level, low-stated Cleric
« Reply #47 on: January 07, 2010, 12:59:58 PM »
Wow, I am in awe of how bad and tyrannical this DM appears to be. I recommend having a fairly strong focus on defense to try and stay alive in what looks like it will be a nasty campaign.
What I think the problem is, is this is his first D&D game since AD&D, and he's using the wrong system. Before that everyone in that group was playing a completely different system, and the campaign world he created used that system. So why he decided the group should to back to doing D&D, I have no idea, especially 3.5. Maybe AD&D couldn't be revised in the way he needed it to be. I know 4th didn't work for him. But that's my guess on it anyways.
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Havok4

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Re: Please help me Min/Max this low level, low-stated Cleric
« Reply #48 on: January 07, 2010, 01:17:11 PM »
You should try and explain the differences to him then, because unless he understands you will always have problems due to the edition gap.

kevin_video

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Re: Please help me Min/Max this low level, low-stated Cleric
« Reply #49 on: January 07, 2010, 01:19:28 PM »
You should try and explain the differences to him then, because unless he understands you will always have problems due to the edition gap.
It's not just an edition gap, it's a game mechanics gap. He's revised 3.5 because he's created his own campaign world which obviously requires that you nerf everything 3.5 D&D so it'll fit.
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wotmaniac

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Re: Please help me Min/Max this low level, low-stated Cleric
« Reply #50 on: January 07, 2010, 02:44:43 PM »
You should try and explain the differences to him then, because unless he understands you will always have problems due to the edition gap.
It's not just an edition gap, it's a game mechanics gap. He's revised 3.5 because he's created his own campaign world which obviously requires that you nerf everything 3.5 D&D so it'll fit.
apparently he's not comfortable with the power-jump from 2nd ed. to 3rd. -- he either needs to get over it and understand how the system works, or he needs to go back to AD&D.
Tell him to shit or get off the pot -- this fence-sitting crap doesn't fly.

[spoiler]
If you stop ignoring 289 pages telling what the intent is to stretch "more power" in your own god complexion of your interpretation trumps all to cover ability adjustments from aging then I will ignore a quarter page of rules that exist within a sidebar.
I think in this case the grammar is less important than whether the Str and Dex bonus provided to your created undead scales.

Greenbound Summoning RAI
Expanded Gestalt
More Savage Progressions[/spoiler]
Report any wrongs I have done here.

DerWille

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Re: Please help me Min/Max this low level, low-stated Cleric
« Reply #51 on: January 07, 2010, 06:35:11 PM »
Anyone else getting twitchy about the DM calling Tome of Battle unbalanced?  :twitch
well, in a world where casters are smashed to bits with the nerf-bat, then it kinda is -- ToB goes a long way to bring martial characters up to par with casters; when you cut the casters balls off, then ToB isn't really needed.  :D


on a serious note -- this guy should just go all out and run Iron Heroes (or maybe even Midnight).  It would have the effect that he is looking for, without all the contrived b.s. that he's having to make up as he goes along (which would give the players honest expectations, and a tangible concept to wrap their brains around).

 Exactly. Tome of Battle is over shadows traditional melee which is fine for a normal game of 3.5.

GawainBS: This story gets worse?

Wow, I am in awe of how bad and tyrannical this DM appears to be. I recommend having a fairly strong focus on defense to try and stay alive in what looks like it will be a nasty campaign.
What I think the problem is, is this is his first D&D game since AD&D, and he's using the wrong system. Before that everyone in that group was playing a completely different system, and the campaign world he created used that system. So why he decided the group should to back to doing D&D, I have no idea, especially 3.5. Maybe AD&D couldn't be revised in the way he needed it to be. I know 4th didn't work for him. But that's my guess on it anyways.

 I can sort of see that. The whole +1, -1 thing would have been huge in AD&D, but in 3.5...

GawainBS

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Re: Please help me Min/Max this low level, low-stated Cleric
« Reply #52 on: January 07, 2010, 06:36:51 PM »
Oh, yes, it does...

PhaedrusXY

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Re: Please help me Min/Max this low level, low-stated Cleric
« Reply #53 on: January 07, 2010, 06:46:56 PM »
You should try and explain the differences to him then, because unless he understands you will always have problems due to the edition gap.
It's not just an edition gap, it's a game mechanics gap. He's revised 3.5 because he's created his own campaign world which obviously requires that you nerf everything 3.5 D&D so it'll fit.
apparently he's not comfortable with the power-jump from 2nd ed. to 3rd. -- he either needs to get over it and understand how the system works, or he needs to go back to AD&D.
Tell him to shit or get off the pot -- this fence-sitting crap doesn't fly.
What power jump are you referring to? The numbers got bigger in 3rd as compared to 2nd, and 3rd definitely gave the players a lot more control over building their characters. I think those were the biggest "power jumps".

As far as the power of magic and characters, if anything wizards were probably relatively stronger in 2nd, as Fireballs actually did a crap ton of damage compared to how many hit points things had, and Stoneskin actually made you pretty much invulnerable to mundane damage. And they still had Wish, and all that crazy high level stuff, too.

Clerics weren't as strong relatively, but bards were a LOT stronger, as were most of the "fighting man" classes (the hit point differences were bigger, and they had better saves). And you could seriously go out and kill freakin' gods at the highest levels of the game. It is a lot harder to do that in 3.5, and it would be nearly impossible to even survive for a single round against some of them.

Also, if you played with pre-written modules, you'd wind up with more magic items than you knew what to do with, seriously. I can remember our group throwing them away. I had my bard character start keeping them all as a semi-joke. You never know when that endless salt shaker might come in handy. Maybe we'll face off against a giant slug tommorrow!
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

DerWille

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Re: Please help me Min/Max this low level, low-stated Cleric
« Reply #54 on: January 07, 2010, 06:47:55 PM »
Oh, yes, it does...

My curiosity is getting the better of me.

GawainBS

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Re: Please help me Min/Max this low level, low-stated Cleric
« Reply #55 on: January 07, 2010, 06:49:44 PM »
Oh, yes, it does...

My curiosity is getting the better of me.

As far as Kevin explained it to me, the Swordsage's powers are stored in a blade, and if he loses that, he loses everything that makes him a Swordsage. That way, the DM can "balance" him if things get out of hand...

PhaedrusXY

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Re: Please help me Min/Max this low level, low-stated Cleric
« Reply #56 on: January 07, 2010, 06:51:24 PM »
Oh, yes, it does...

My curiosity is getting the better of me.

As far as Kevin explained it to me, the Swordsage's powers are stored in a blade, and if he loses that, he loses everything that makes him a Swordsage. That way, the DM can "balance" him if things get out of hand...
:lol :lmao

Now I have an image of "the DM" unbuckling his belt buckle and saying "C'mere boy. I'm gunna learn you sum balance."
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

Havok4

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Re: Please help me Min/Max this low level, low-stated Cleric
« Reply #57 on: January 07, 2010, 06:53:57 PM »
He mentioned that earlier in the thread as well. It seems rather stupid as it is really just a another way this DM can punish player. Given the rules that Kevin posted it seems like the DM will just say where the plot will go and any ability that the players use to attempt to change this course will be considered overpowered and banned. But given what Kevin has posted about his previous DMs this seems like it might be an improvement, which is incredibly terrifying.

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Please help me Min/Max this low level, low-stated Cleric
« Reply #58 on: January 07, 2010, 07:28:20 PM »
Oh, yes, it does...

My curiosity is getting the better of me.

As far as Kevin explained it to me, the Swordsage's powers are stored in a blade, and if he loses that, he loses everything that makes him a Swordsage. That way, the DM can "balance" him if things get out of hand...

1) Enchant it as a -2 blade, cursed.
2) Make it an item familiar
3) Make it a weapon of legacy
4) Add on spellblade: limited wish

There.  It's indestructable by anything short of multiple castings of ninth level spells.
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Re: Please help me Min/Max this low level, low-stated Cleric
« Reply #59 on: January 07, 2010, 07:35:13 PM »
Oh, yes, it does...

My curiosity is getting the better of me.

As far as Kevin explained it to me, the Swordsage's powers are stored in a blade, and if he loses that, he loses everything that makes him a Swordsage. That way, the DM can "balance" him if things get out of hand...

1) Enchant it as a -2 blade, cursed.
2) Make it an item familiar
3) Make it a weapon of legacy
4) Add on spellblade: limited wish

There.  It's indestructable by anything short of multiple castings of ninth level spells.
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