Author Topic: Please help me Min/Max this low level, low-stated Cleric  (Read 11840 times)

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wotmaniac

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Re: Please help me Min/Max this low level, low-stated Cleric
« Reply #20 on: January 07, 2010, 04:36:12 AM »
wait a minute -- how many other PCs are there?

[spoiler]
If you stop ignoring 289 pages telling what the intent is to stretch "more power" in your own god complexion of your interpretation trumps all to cover ability adjustments from aging then I will ignore a quarter page of rules that exist within a sidebar.
I think in this case the grammar is less important than whether the Str and Dex bonus provided to your created undead scales.

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kevin_video

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Re: Please help me Min/Max this low level, low-stated Cleric
« Reply #21 on: January 07, 2010, 04:40:36 AM »
wait a minute -- how many other PCs are there?
Four, including myself. A human scout, a human swordsage, and a half-ogre fighter.

And I just noticed something that I hadn't noticed before. On the old sheet, he's got all of the weapon groups from UA, but he's got Weapon Focus and a single weapon. Not a group like UA suggests, but a single weapon. So that means even if you took weapon group heavy blades and weapon group light blades, you only get weapon focus (longsword). That's messed up. There's something very wrong about that.
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The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Please help me Min/Max this low level, low-stated Cleric
« Reply #22 on: January 07, 2010, 04:42:13 AM »
No familiars either?  Ouch!

Well, if you're playing the Pelor missionary to the hilt... given your campaign, I'm very tempted to recommend vow of poverty and touch of golden ice.
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wotmaniac

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Re: Please help me Min/Max this low level, low-stated Cleric
« Reply #23 on: January 07, 2010, 04:44:10 AM »
No familiars either?  Ouch!

Well, if you're playing the Pelor missionary to the hilt... given your campaign, I'm very tempted to recommend vow of poverty and touch of golden ice.
oh, I'm sure that'll be poo-pooed as well -- "broken" and too 3.0-ish  :eh
though that would be ideal
(the thing is that VoP effectiveness is inversely proportionate to availability of magic items -- no items = completely busted)
« Last Edit: January 07, 2010, 04:45:50 AM by wotmaniac »

[spoiler]
If you stop ignoring 289 pages telling what the intent is to stretch "more power" in your own god complexion of your interpretation trumps all to cover ability adjustments from aging then I will ignore a quarter page of rules that exist within a sidebar.
I think in this case the grammar is less important than whether the Str and Dex bonus provided to your created undead scales.

Greenbound Summoning RAI
Expanded Gestalt
More Savage Progressions[/spoiler]
Report any wrongs I have done here.

kevin_video

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Re: Please help me Min/Max this low level, low-stated Cleric
« Reply #24 on: January 07, 2010, 04:45:12 AM »
No familiars either?  Ouch!

Well, if you're playing the Pelor missionary to the hilt... given your campaign, I'm very tempted to recommend vow of poverty and touch of golden ice.
I know touch of golden ice. The thri-keen saint in the other game I play has that. But isn't that DC based off of your CHA? Of which I have +0? And hey, that's a good idea. It's a +2 LA, but I could go for that. A human saint cleric/radiant servant. That's pretty good.

@ wotmaniac -- .......... Crap. Yeah, that is a strong possibility.
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wotmaniac

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Re: Please help me Min/Max this low level, low-stated Cleric
« Reply #25 on: January 07, 2010, 04:50:36 AM »
well, I'm kinda tapped-out on this one ....

... but there is always this :shrug

[spoiler]
If you stop ignoring 289 pages telling what the intent is to stretch "more power" in your own god complexion of your interpretation trumps all to cover ability adjustments from aging then I will ignore a quarter page of rules that exist within a sidebar.
I think in this case the grammar is less important than whether the Str and Dex bonus provided to your created undead scales.

Greenbound Summoning RAI
Expanded Gestalt
More Savage Progressions[/spoiler]
Report any wrongs I have done here.

DerWille

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Re: Please help me Min/Max this low level, low-stated Cleric
« Reply #26 on: January 07, 2010, 04:53:33 AM »
Random curiosity, is this the guy who made you take ghost walker progression levels of a half red dragon that had all enemies in a spy network that conspired to make the lives of 4 people as difficult as they possibly could?

 Hm, so we have a Druid that's doesn't have wild shape and doesn't have an animal companion and in other words loses all notable class features except spell casting. I have an excellent idea.

Take a look at these two variants here and there. Now since we have rage, we can sub it out for this. Now that we have Favored Enemy, we're going to see if we can sub it out for Arcane Hunter variant to make ourselves hell for arcane casters. We can justify it with you think that people leading the destruction of nature are Wizards because they did it (Remember, you have 9 int). Or you can take it against whoever is the most common enemy in this campaign.

 What this lets us do is something like this:

Human Druid 7 (While elves and half elves love the forest, remind him how much people do too)
1) Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot
3) Zen Archery
6) Precise Shot
9) Leadership

You might consider this one as well:
Human Fighter 1/Druid 6
1) Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Zen Archery
3) Precise Shot
6) Leadership

 What we get:

Rage -> Whirling Frenzy
Fast Movement (Monk or Barbarian)
Wis to AC
Favored Enemy
Swift Tracker
Track (Bonus Feat)
Spells
Healing
And a way to stay the hell out of dodge
At level 2 we get to shoot something 3 times Whirling Frenzy + Rapid Shot.

The more I think about it, the more the fighter dip is looking appealing. We can lose our Druid armor prof and then pick it up again with fighter. This Wis to AC isn't too big of a deal because a simple piece of armor can more than make up for it. We however get favored enemy and tracking (If you ever need it).

kevin_video

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Re: Please help me Min/Max this low level, low-stated Cleric
« Reply #27 on: January 07, 2010, 04:54:13 AM »
well, I'm kinda tapped-out on this one ....

... but there is always this :shrug
You mean the cleric/bard/radiant servant? Again, afraid not. No multi-classing allowed. It was hard enough to get him to agree to radiant servant, and even that was because of what my character's final destination was (high priest). Originally I was going to do a crusader/cleric/ruby knight but that got denied the second he saw it, and it's not because of the crusader and ruby knight being from ToB. It's because it's three classes for one character. He's a big believer in the fact that once you choose a class, you should be sticking with it for the full 20 levels, and not leaving it.
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When God gives you lemons... it's time to find a new God.

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kevin_video

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Re: Please help me Min/Max this low level, low-stated Cleric
« Reply #28 on: January 07, 2010, 04:55:01 AM »
Random curiosity, is this the guy who made you take ghost walker progression levels of a half red dragon that had all enemies in a spy network that conspired to make the lives of 4 people as difficult as they possibly could?
No, this is a completely new DM, and I mean that in all forms of that word.
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When God gives you lemons... it's time to find a new God.

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kevin_video

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Re: Please help me Min/Max this low level, low-stated Cleric
« Reply #29 on: January 07, 2010, 04:56:24 AM »
Human Druid 7

Human Fighter 1/Druid 6
A) Not in his campaign world, and B) no multi-classing.

Also, there is no destruction of the wilderness other than by humans and goblinoids/orcs, hence why the elves and feys are at war with us.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2010, 04:58:58 AM by kevin_video »
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DerWille

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Re: Please help me Min/Max this low level, low-stated Cleric
« Reply #30 on: January 07, 2010, 04:59:52 AM »
Human Druid 7

Human Fighter 1/Druid 6
A) Not in his campaign world, and B) no multi-classing.

A - Counter Point 1: If Half-Elves are Druids don't they need humans around to make them?
A - Counter Point 2: Be a Half-Elf

Druid
1) Point Blank Shot
3) Zen Archery
6) Rapid Shot
9)  Precise Shot

General - I would confront the guy.

kevin_video

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Re: Please help me Min/Max this low level, low-stated Cleric
« Reply #31 on: January 07, 2010, 05:04:36 AM »
A - Counter Point 1: If Half-Elves are Druids don't they need humans around to make them?
A - Counter Point 2: Be a Half-Elf

General - I would confront the guy.
Counter-Counter Point 1: Half-Elves are made by raping elven women.

Counter-Counter Point 2: Half-Elves are built differently than in the PHB. You get +1 DEX -1 CON, +1 INT -1 WIS and that's it. You don't get your diplomacy or gather information bonus. As well, humans are as hostile towards you as you are towards them, as you both know where you came from.
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kevin_video

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Re: Please help me Min/Max this low level, low-stated Cleric
« Reply #32 on: January 07, 2010, 05:09:51 AM »
I will add that I am going to talk to the DM when I see him in person next. He wants me to sit down with him to work on the character anyways.
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DerWille

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Re: Please help me Min/Max this low level, low-stated Cleric
« Reply #33 on: January 07, 2010, 05:13:46 AM »
 :twitch  :twitch  :twitch  :twitch  :twitch  :twitch

 So let me get this straight.

This is chill.

This is kill on sight.

kevin_video

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Re: Please help me Min/Max this low level, low-stated Cleric
« Reply #34 on: January 07, 2010, 05:15:03 AM »
:twitch  :twitch  :twitch  :twitch  :twitch  :twitch

 So let me get this straight.

This is chill.

This is kill on sight.
Yes. I guess think of WoW. Alliance vs the Horde, except the humans have sided with the Horde and Blood Elves are Alliance.
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bearsarebrown

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Re: Please help me Min/Max this low level, low-stated Cleric
« Reply #35 on: January 07, 2010, 05:17:44 AM »

DerWille

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Re: Please help me Min/Max this low level, low-stated Cleric
« Reply #36 on: January 07, 2010, 05:28:34 AM »
 Okay, I have a better understand now. Are there any other hidden rules?

 Go full bore summoner cleric that crafts stuff in his spare time. You don't have the hp to be up front. You don't have the feats to spell cast and fight effectively. You need to borrow power from as many sources as possible.

Human Cleric
1) SpF: Conj, Augment Summon
3) Improved Initiative/Brew Potion/Craft Weapon/Craft Armor (Whatever you feel is more important)
6) Leadership/Craft Wondrous Item

This can be a good place to get suggestions on what to summon and what feats to go after. It's Malconvoker centric, but the feats and summon suggestions are gold.

EDIT: I forgot to mention. When you next see this guy, explain how he is failing both in design and being a decent GM. The Half elf is ridiculous. In 3.5 +1 and -1 does absolutely nothing. There is very little need for odd scores unless you need the bare minimum for a feat. That's it and it's laughable. It shows he doesn't understand the game.

 He's also being controlling. A general rule I discovered was that your players don't care about "your campaign". They want to have fun and do what they want. It's good that he's up front, but otherwise no. He doesn't have the power to determine personal details of a character like their age. If he wants to write a novel, he should write a novel. If he wants to tell a story, he should realize that D&D and other systems are cooperative story telling. So instead of trying to force characters into a mold, he should allow them to explore the situation he presents.

 I would explain this politely, but firmly.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2010, 05:35:11 AM by DerWille »

kevin_video

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Re: Please help me Min/Max this low level, low-stated Cleric
« Reply #37 on: January 07, 2010, 05:35:34 AM »
Hidden rules? As in house rules? Yeah, he made us a list.

Races and classes will be modified as presented by me

Alternative weapon group proficiency rules from Unearthed Arcana will be used.

Alternative class abilities are allowable if approved by the DM. New abilities must be roughly equivalent in weight to those being replaced.

Multiclassing is not allowable, normally, but must be approved by the DM (why are you taking it?). The second class must be incorporated into the character develepment prior to taking first level.

DM reserves the right to veto any power determined not to fit with the nature of the campaign world or to be too unbalanced (that's right, I'm looking at you, Tome of Battle, polymorph, and wildshape).


I sent him an e-mail regarding exalted feats, and possibly becoming a saint. One feat I will be taking for sure is Extra Turning for Radiant Servant, but that's not included into the list feats so I'm assuming you put that as the human bonus feat. Leadership at 6th is a definite if he'll allow it. Him "hmm"ing at it doesn't site well with me. Brew Potion would probably be a good idea, especially since they're rare enough as it is, and if he says yes to Craft points, that'll help immensely.
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wotmaniac

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Re: Please help me Min/Max this low level, low-stated Cleric
« Reply #38 on: January 07, 2010, 05:37:36 AM »
well, I'm kinda tapped-out on this one ....

... but there is always this :shrug
You mean the cleric/bard/radiant servant? Again, afraid not. No multi-classing allowed. It was hard enough to get him to agree to radiant servant, and even that was because of what my character's final destination was (high priest). Originally I was going to do a crusader/cleric/ruby knight but that got denied the second he saw it, and it's not because of the crusader and ruby knight being from ToB. It's because it's three classes for one character. He's a big believer in the fact that once you choose a class, you should be sticking with it for the full 20 levels, and not leaving it.
just drop the bard level, and replace it with a cleric level .... you lose the IC (which was irrelevant anyway) and Healing Hymn (which hurts).

... wait a minute -- are you able to pick up a second PrC if you exhaust all the levels of the first one?
If so, Master of Radiance or Sacred Purifier (both from Libris Mortis) are pretty solid (if undead aren't really an issue, go with MoR).  Both are 5-level PrCs that can be entered after only 5 levels.  The only downsides for them are that they each lose 1 caster level.

[spoiler]
If you stop ignoring 289 pages telling what the intent is to stretch "more power" in your own god complexion of your interpretation trumps all to cover ability adjustments from aging then I will ignore a quarter page of rules that exist within a sidebar.
I think in this case the grammar is less important than whether the Str and Dex bonus provided to your created undead scales.

Greenbound Summoning RAI
Expanded Gestalt
More Savage Progressions[/spoiler]
Report any wrongs I have done here.

kevin_video

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Re: Please help me Min/Max this low level, low-stated Cleric
« Reply #39 on: January 07, 2010, 05:39:58 AM »
... wait a minute -- are you able to pick up a second PrC if you exhaust all the levels of the first one?
If so, Master of Radiance or Sacred Purifier (both from Libris Mortis) are pretty solid (if undead aren't really an issue, go with MoR).  Both are 5-level PrCs that can be entered after only 5 levels.  The only downsides for them are that they each lose 1 caster level.
I don't know about a second prestige. Probably not. It was hard enough to let him let me get Radiant Servant. Check out the house rules he wrote down. I'm coming in late so I'm already a loop hole for the multiclassing issue.
I reject your reality, and substitute my own.

When God gives you lemons... it's time to find a new God.

Like D&D Freakouts? Check out this 4th Ed one.