Author Topic: Kell's First Love : The Bladesinger  (Read 6785 times)

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KellKheraptis

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Kell's First Love : The Bladesinger
« on: January 02, 2010, 05:07:09 AM »
So looking over the trove of gish PrC's and lamenting the brutal beating the Bladesinger received from the transition to 3rd edition, I've now set my sights on rebuilding the same type of character a 2nd edition Bladesinger would be.  Consider all sources available for this exercise.

Parameters :
[spoiler]-BAB 16 by level 20, fractional allowed
-9th level casting by level 20
-Arcane strike of some sort
-A means of emulating the scaling bonus bladesong used to grant.  Inspire Courage seems to fit this nicely.
ToB crossover encouraged!
-Ur-Priest would be ideal given it's low number of levels needed, allowing for more extras, but requires one of several of my workarounds to make the casting arcane, and has relatively few spells per day.
-Swiftblade would be equally awesome!
-Wet dream would be 8th level+ maneuvers on a swiftblade while attaining the above.
-Anything extra would be sexy.
-Does not need to adhere to the traditional Longsword, Rapier, or Whip of the old ones, though a sword of some kind is ideal (if nothing else because they have nice stats).[/spoiler]

That said, what are some ways to increase Inspire Courage without a ton of Bard/SC levels, as since it's gish, other abilities are a LOT nicer IMO?
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Re: Kell's First Love : The Bladesinger
« Reply #1 on: January 02, 2010, 05:34:36 AM »
That said, what are some ways to increase Inspire Courage without a ton of Bard/SC levels, as since it's gish, other abilities are a LOT nicer IMO?

Is Dragon magazine Allowed?  HEARTFIRE FANNER.  You're automatically a level 10 bard.  Now add Spellsinger -Level 15.  Vest of Legends, 20.  Alas, no way to get to 26 for +5 without losing a spellcasting level.

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Re: Kell's First Love : The Bladesinger
« Reply #2 on: January 02, 2010, 06:29:56 AM »
That said, what are some ways to increase Inspire Courage without a ton of Bard/SC levels, as since it's gish, other abilities are a LOT nicer IMO?

Is Dragon magazine Allowed?  HEARTFIRE FANNER.  You're automatically a level 10 bard.  Now add Spellsinger -Level 15.  Vest of Legends, 20.  Alas, no way to get to 26 for +5 without losing a spellcasting level.

Four things :
1)Yay, 1000th post!
2)Is HFF full, partial, or half BAB?
3)Is it bard casting only, or any/any arcane?
4)Is the Vest a constant item or is it times/day?

Also, bouncing around options also brought up an interesting one : if we're using a nonstandard way of getting spells/high level spells, a one level dip can add a good deal of damage with a Bastard Sword (read : elven styled katana) from Uncanny Blow with Exotic Weapon Master, and it's full BAB to boot.

Just getting +5 Inspire Courage amounts to +15 to hit and damage with Knowledge Devotion (fits perfectly) and Words of Creation (also fits the whole Elven Mage schtick), so that'd be awesome.  A Tome of Ancient Lore trick can nab all the spells known we need, so really going Bard base seems ideal.  Our mid level spells per day might be kinda funky, but then again that's where we can throw on the Rings of Wizardry.  The questions remain then, how to A)get 3.0 haste without Swiftblade 9, and B)if possible from A, snag at least 8th level, and possibly 9th level maneuvers.  This ostensibly would mean a lot of JPM, which is ok.  Evasive Reflexes in any event with 3.0 haste seems a shoe-in, particularly if Swiftblade is used.  Other than maneuvers, what ways are there to change the stat of saves?  I know some add another stat, which if the initial is dumped is just as good (and better once buffs are in play).  And also, Spelldancer 2 seems a nice fit, as that allows for Persist tech without really losing anything, especially on a Swiftblade, and it grants Evasion :)

Wow, this turned into a text bomb fast!  To sum up, current sexiness is one level dip in each of Heartfire Fanner (stats to that dip would ROCK), Spellsinger, and possibly Sublime Chord (2 level might be better), and a 2 level dip in Spelldancer for Persisting and Evasion.  Abjurant Champion 5 seems sexy as hell, and we can pick up all Sor/Wiz spells for all slots with Sword of the Arcane Order on either Silver Pyromancer (blech, LG without adaptation) or PrC Pally (yay, more than just regular pally exists!  Pally of Freedom [CG] ftw).  That leaves a few of the closing levels, a couple in between before SC, and a strong base.  Doesn't Savage Bard have good Fort and Ref?  That would seem ideal, given that the rest of this shit boosts Will exclusively or Ref/Will.

EDIT : And how are you getting 10 virtual bard levels from HFF?  It grants 5 at level 1, unless you mean take all 5 to total 10.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2010, 08:26:48 AM by KellKheraptis »
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Re: Kell's First Love : The Bladesinger
« Reply #3 on: January 02, 2010, 08:31:18 AM »
I rebuilt my Bladesinger with Wizard6/Swiftblade9/AbjurantChampion5. Apart from having no RAW-song-like abilities, I find this feels a lot like a 2nd Edition Bladesinger.

The main issue with going Bard-based, is the fact that the 3.x Bard spell list differs too much from the Arcane spell list in 2nd Edition. It requires some Sublime Chord.

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Re: Kell's First Love : The Bladesinger
« Reply #4 on: January 02, 2010, 08:45:55 AM »
I rebuilt my Bladesinger with Wizard6/Swiftblade9/AbjurantChampion5. Apart from having no RAW-song-like abilities, I find this feels a lot like a 2nd Edition Bladesinger.

The main issue with going Bard-based, is the fact that the 3.x Bard spell list differs too much from the Arcane spell list in 2nd Edition. It requires some Sublime Chord.

That was the idea if I went bard.  A Wizard Swiftblade (the first place I looked to) would have most of what I'm after, no doubt, though it does beg the question can that be further optimized?  Assuming early entry on the spell requirement and the feats fulfilled (easily enough since all but one of them are needed for SB and AC anyway), how would Spelldancer 2 look?  That'll add even more Ref, while also granting autopersist and Evasion.  Their prescient magical sense I can emulate with one spell (also precluding the need for Uncanny Dodge), and the speed aspect is there for sure, along with the "fuck you, you can't hit me in your dreams" aspect of the 2nd Ed parrying option.  Is there a way to match the +10 or so bonus an optimized Bardic build can get with a Wizard base?  I assume both would use Knowledge Devotion and Greater Magic Weapon, so that leaves boosting +to hit/damage with other means (non-item if possible, though another +3 is easy from that war god armband) to match IC.  Now I'm also going to go hunting for a possible 9th level spell Swiftblade bard build, but in the meanwhile, I can get Sor/Wiz spells into the entire progression of a bardic build, assuming I've got room for PrC Pal 1 in there.

EDIT : And what's the closest we can come to emulating the 9th level ability of Swiftblade, i.e. 3.0 haste?

EDIT#2 : Here's a preliminary -
[spoiler]1)Wizard 1-Familiar, Generalist, Dodge, Mobility, Otherworldly, Improved
Initiative, Extend Spell, Endurance
2)Wizard 2-
3)Wizard 3-Natural Link, Combat Casting
4)Wizard 4-
5)Spelldancer 1-Spelldance
6)Spelldancer 2-Enthralling Dance, Evasion, Persistent Spell
7)Swiftblade 1-Spring Attack, Swift Surge +1/+0/+0 ft
8)Swiftblade 2-Blurred Alacrity
9)Swiftblade 3-Sudden Casting, Practiced Spellcaster
10)Swiftblade 4-Arcane Reflexes,  Swift Surge +1/+1d6/10 ft
11)Swiftblade 5-Evasive Celerity
12)Swiftblade 6-Fortified Hustle, Arcane Strike
13)Swiftblade 7-Bounding Assault,  Swift Surge +2/+1d6/+10 ft
14)Swiftblade 8-Diligent Rapidity
15)Swiftblade 9-Perpetual Options, Power Attack
16)Abjurant Champion 1-Abjurant Armor (+5), Extended Abjuration
17)Abjurant Champion 2-Swift Abjuration (0th-3rd)
18)Abjurant Champion 3-Knowledge Devotion
19)Abjurant Champion 4-Arcane Boost
20)Abjurant Champion 5-Martial Arcanist

Quicken Spell, Planar Touchstone (flaws)
Trades away initial weapon proficiencies
Owns face![/spoiler]
« Last Edit: January 02, 2010, 09:12:26 AM by KellKheraptis »
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shandiris

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Re: Kell's First Love : The Bladesinger
« Reply #5 on: January 02, 2010, 09:12:17 AM »
EDIT : And what's the closest we can come to emulating the 9th level ability of Swiftblade, i.e. 3.0 haste?

I think that would either Sharn or a similiar race (not an option here). Factotum 8 is also possible but that doesn't advance casting. A third option is the optimization of quicken spell through Incantrix, Halruaan Elder and Easy Metamagic (dragon ..?) or if your going sorcerer the one from RoD.
Hope that helps.

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Re: Kell's First Love : The Bladesinger
« Reply #6 on: January 02, 2010, 09:31:45 AM »
Where's Spelldancer from?

KellKheraptis

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Re: Kell's First Love : The Bladesinger
« Reply #7 on: January 02, 2010, 09:45:16 AM »
EDIT : And what's the closest we can come to emulating the 9th level ability of Swiftblade, i.e. 3.0 haste?

I think that would either Sharn or a similiar race (not an option here). Factotum 8 is also possible but that doesn't advance casting. A third option is the optimization of quicken spell through Incantrix, Halruaan Elder and Easy Metamagic (dragon ..?) or if your going sorcerer the one from RoD.
Hope that helps.

Hmm...that'd basically be a Bladesinger as a DP Gish, then :P

Where's Spelldancer from?

Magic of Faerun.  If it's not a +2 Tier PrC, it bloody should be :P
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Re: Kell's First Love : The Bladesinger
« Reply #8 on: January 02, 2010, 04:05:13 PM »
Magic of Faerun.  If it's not a +2 Tier PrC, it bloody should be :P
Why? Did I miss something?
(warning: kinda reads like a rant about how bad spelldancer sucks)
[spoiler]It requires;
1. Combat Casting, ok if your going Abjurant Champion, rather than a real metamagic specialist like Incantatrix.
2. It wants Endurance, ouch. Enough said.
3. It also wants Dodge & Mobility, the only way your going to recover from that loss is going Swiftblade, of course Swiftblade makes anything a kick ass build but that hardly validates the Bladesinger.
Congrats, you can take Extend & Persist (theres 6 of your 7 feats) to have one buff spell last all day.

Did you take 3 levels and take Cohort (theres all 7 feats) to persist multiple spells? Ok, now what if you took level of Dread Necromancer to DMM'ed Persist for less feats and have been doing it 6 levels ago?

Not going Persist? Two words: Easy/Practical Metamagic.
-2 to all metamagic for two feats > "hey lets spend multiple rounds in combat doing nothing with our standard action provoking AoOs rather than say double casting though arcane spellsurge or swiftblade's haste boost that we required to be useful to add a free maximized boost to a spell!".
If I were to teir it, I'd mark it negative two or lower.

***[/spoiler]

Got room for a level of Crusader & Song Of The White Raven? If you can fit those in you can buff your Inspire as a swift action and some mid to low level strikes tend to be really useful when you have an extra standard action just laying around.

Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]

KellKheraptis

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Re: Kell's First Love : The Bladesinger
« Reply #9 on: January 02, 2010, 06:57:28 PM »
Magic of Faerun.  If it's not a +2 Tier PrC, it bloody should be :P
Why? Did I miss something?
(warning: kinda reads like a rant about how bad spelldancer sucks)
[spoiler]It requires;
1. Combat Casting, ok if your going Abjurant Champion, rather than a real metamagic specialist like Incantatrix.
2. It wants Endurance, ouch. Enough said.
3. It also wants Dodge & Mobility, the only way your going to recover from that loss is going Swiftblade, of course Swiftblade makes anything a kick ass build but that hardly validates the Bladesinger.
Congrats, you can take Extend & Persist (theres 6 of your 7 feats) to have one buff spell last all day.

Did you take 3 levels and take Cohort (theres all 7 feats) to persist multiple spells? Ok, now what if you took level of Dread Necromancer to DMM'ed Persist for less feats and have been doing it 6 levels ago?

Not going Persist? Two words: Easy/Practical Metamagic.
-2 to all metamagic for two feats > "hey lets spend multiple rounds in combat doing nothing with our standard action provoking AoOs rather than say double casting though arcane spellsurge or swiftblade's haste boost that we required to be useful to add a free maximized boost to a spell!".
If I were to teir it, I'd mark it negative two or lower.

***[/spoiler]

Got room for a level of Crusader & Song Of The White Raven? If you can fit those in you can buff your Inspire as a swift action and some mid to low level strikes tend to be really useful when you have an extra standard action just laying around.



You did miss something, badly.  If you have a means of becoming immune to fatigue and exhaustion, you can spelldance a TON of metamagic for free.  As in no limit.  Not for in combat use, but for beginning of day buffs, it's awesome.  And as for Swiftblade not validating bladesinger, any suggestions?  3.5 doesn't support the vast majority of it's mechanics.

And as for a Crusader dip, if I went the Bard route, sure.  That'd contribute to Bardic Music progression, and would be a good lead-in to JPM.  A preliminary :
[spoiler]Bard 6/Crusader 1/HFF 3/SC 1/HFF 4-5/Abj Ch 5/Spellsinger 2 would get Bardic Music as a 15th level bard, I think, and would have BAB 16@20 fractionally, with a CL of 19.  20th level Music with the Vest above.[/spoiler]

The build skeleton of the King of Combustion would also work to show a 2nd Ed style Fighter/Mage kit, though the main school that fits for a weapon master is notably missing (Iron Heart).  Diamond Mind also fits, due to the speed of Bladesong, though is less difficult to replace given that most of it can be emulated with other things.  IH would also take care of their ability to parry things (eventually anything in a sense, with IHS).  Hmm...other than ASS (which I'm trying to avoid at the moment), how would a Falling Star Mystic Ranger work as a lead-in?

BIG EDIT : Not to change the parameters on everyone, but here's an idea : while still meeting the initial "GISH Manditories" of BAB 16/9th level spells, also be capable of fulfilling the 10^100 challenge.  I believe this is entirely within the realm of possibility, as I have a sorc build lying around that did this relatively easily.  Thoughts?
« Last Edit: January 02, 2010, 09:01:58 PM by KellKheraptis »
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Re: Kell's First Love : The Bladesinger
« Reply #10 on: January 02, 2010, 11:33:00 PM »
You did miss something, badly.  If you have a means of becoming immune to fatigue and exhaustion, you can spelldance a TON of metamagic for free.  As in no limit.  Not for in combat use, but for beginning of day buffs, it's awesome.  And as for Swiftblade not validating bladesinger, any suggestions?  3.5 doesn't support the vast majority of it's mechanics.

You can only dance Spelldancer level + Con rounds per day.

Con = 18 + 6 + 5 + 5 = 34 (+12) is pretty much going to be your best Con.

22 levels worth of free metamagic. This compares too...

3 + 12(Cha) + Extra Turningx5(4 feats and undeath) = 35 levels worth of free metamagic.

Unless there is some way to get around the rounds/day.

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Re: Kell's First Love : The Bladesinger
« Reply #11 on: January 02, 2010, 11:47:46 PM »
You did miss something, badly.  If you have a means of becoming immune to fatigue and exhaustion, you can spelldance a TON of metamagic for free.  As in no limit.  Not for in combat use, but for beginning of day buffs, it's awesome.  And as for Swiftblade not validating bladesinger, any suggestions?  3.5 doesn't support the vast majority of it's mechanics.

You can only dance Spelldancer level + Con rounds per day.

Con = 18 + 6 + 5 + 5 = 34 (+12) is pretty much going to be your best Con.

22 levels worth of free metamagic. This compares too...

3 + 12(Cha) + Extra Turningx5(4 feats and undeath) = 35 levels worth of free metamagic.

Unless there is some way to get around the rounds/day.

You can dance that length without having to roll to avoid fatigue.  If you're immune, you can dance all day with it.
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Re: Kell's First Love : The Bladesinger
« Reply #12 on: January 03, 2010, 12:16:52 AM »
You did miss something, badly.  If you have a means of becoming immune to fatigue and exhaustion, you can spelldance a TON of metamagic for free.  As in no limit.  Not for in combat use, but for beginning of day buffs, it's awesome.  And as for Swiftblade not validating bladesinger, any suggestions?  3.5 doesn't support the vast majority of it's mechanics.

You can only dance Spelldancer level + Con rounds per day.

Con = 18 + 6 + 5 + 5 = 34 (+12) is pretty much going to be your best Con.

22 levels worth of free metamagic. This compares too...

3 + 12(Cha) + Extra Turningx5(4 feats and undeath) = 35 levels worth of free metamagic.

Unless there is some way to get around the rounds/day.

You can dance that length without having to roll to avoid fatigue.  If you're immune, you can dance all day with it.

oh damn that's legit as shit then

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Re: Kell's First Love : The Bladesinger
« Reply #13 on: January 03, 2010, 03:41:03 AM »
Immunity to Fatigue/Exhaustion - see text for specifics
Horizon Walker 1, ecl 6, DMG, desert terrain mastery
Divine Mind 1 or 6 or 12, Complete Psionic, Repose Aura Power - extends to all in aura
Peregrine Runner 9, ecl 16, Races of Stone
Cyre Scout 6, ecl 12, Eberron: Dragonmarked
Bone Knight 8, ecl 12, Eberron: Five Nations - plus other immunities
Thief of Life 8, ecl ?, Faiths of Eberron - limited duration, see text
Shifter Stamina, shifter feat, Races of Eberron, while shifting, fatigue/exhaustion effects take place after shift ends
Heavy Legs, warforged graft, Faiths of Eberron

edit: or be a warforged or necropolitan
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Re: Kell's First Love : The Bladesinger
« Reply #14 on: January 03, 2010, 03:44:32 AM »
Sandals of the Vagabond - +2 Untyped Initiative, Immunity to Fatigue and Exhaustion.  Better than all of the above other than being an item, and everyone likes going first.
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Re: Kell's First Love : The Bladesinger
« Reply #15 on: January 03, 2010, 03:48:15 AM »
What's the source?
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Re: Kell's First Love : The Bladesinger
« Reply #16 on: January 03, 2010, 04:11:38 AM »
What's the source?


I'll double check the War Weaver handbook in a second, but IIRC they're from MiC CChamp.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2010, 04:14:01 AM by KellKheraptis »
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Re: Kell's First Love : The Bladesinger
« Reply #17 on: January 03, 2010, 10:52:09 AM »
I'd say I missed something. Yeahee more ways to use metamagic at reduced costs!
Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]

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Re: Kell's First Love : The Bladesinger
« Reply #18 on: January 03, 2010, 11:03:14 AM »
Sandals of the Vagabond - +2 Untyped Initiative, Immunity to Fatigue and Exhaustion.  Better than all of the above other than being an item, and everyone likes going first.
Nope, only immunity to Exhaustion.
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Re: Kell's First Love : The Bladesinger
« Reply #19 on: January 03, 2010, 11:12:51 AM »
Doesn't Exhaustion include immunity?