Author Topic: Reworking My Warmage Batman  (Read 6387 times)

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KellKheraptis

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Reworking My Warmage Batman
« on: December 28, 2009, 12:25:49 AM »
For those of you who saw either my CO Compilation here or my two threads on 339, the Batman Warmage got the Cleric, Paladin, Warmage, and Sor/Wizard spell lists, spontaneously, while still getting 9th level spells.  This was 8 degrees of awesome.  It can get better.  There is one standard inclusion that will apply ubiquitously, and a couple options that need to be explored.  

This will not be repeated again : This is not your average Cheesewrought Instabold.  A good degree of cheese and such is included in this build.  You have been warned.

With that in mind :
First, the standard variation is that only 1 level of PrC pally is needed now, thanks to Dragon Magic.  Awesome, as it isn't a dead casting level.  We can even trade out Detect <alignment> for Detect Magic.  Secondly, if we keep Rainbow Servant, someone pointed out that there is an adaptation that allows for different domains (i.e. a different creature than a coutal).  This can get really nice, really fast, since it's 3 domains, 3 domain powers, and 27 spells known added.  Third, if we ditch the Rainbow Servant, Contemplative has fishy language about how and what it adds.  One reading would imply a Warmage adds the entire cleric list from a single level.  This would be absolutely fantastic, as it would save 9 levels.  War Mage PrC and War Weaver both come to mind, as does Maxed out Incantatrix.  Maybe a mix, with Metaphysical Spellshaper to boot.  War Mage especially with Incanta and MP SS would make for some sick blasting potential, and have awesome BFC/SoL/Buffs to boot.  So the real questions are A)what are your top 3 picks for domains, and B)assuming Contemplative works as above, what are good picks for the other levels?  I'm leaning towards adding action economy and then damage for grins, to keep with the flavor originally intended.  He's got the versatility thing down pat.  Hell if it's a kobold, he's got all of em from Child of Eberron.  For the action abuser, War Weaver I'd see as manditory, even if it costs a 9th level slot (as that gives us easy use of mass buffing and mass buffing on top of it on the fly from blowing the prepared tapestry).  Thoughts?

~Kell

P.S. Once I know for sure if some of these work, I'll rewrite my Warmage guide from 339 and post it here.  Chris needs some company in the spontaneous Batman department!

EDIT : Cleaned up code.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2009, 01:20:14 AM by KellKheraptis »
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DerWille

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Re: Reworking My Warmage Batman
« Reply #1 on: December 28, 2009, 01:29:42 AM »
 Alright, so the cheesiest of cheese then.

As for the contemplative thing I assume you mean this section

Quote
Complete Divine: page 32
If the contemplative did not previously belong to a divine spellcasting class, she gains the ability to cast divine spells exactly as a cleric of her patron deity. Her spell progression is the same as that of a cleric. (Note: Contemplative requires "Spells: Able to cast 1st-level divine spells.")

 I'm not exactly how this would make sense, as you need divine spells to get the divine spells. What I am thinking is that we can use Rainbow Servant to get a domain and by pass that (like you said). So the early build can look like this.

Warmage 1/Rainbow Servant 2/War Weaver 5/Incantrix 10/Contemplative 1/PrC Paladin 1.

 Those levels aren't in order. I'd take the Contemplative and PrC Paladin alot earlier in the build.

Useful Domains:
Transformation - The entire polymorph line and +1 CL for all of those spells. This includes alter self, polymorph, and shapechange.
Summoner - Almost the entire summoning line with Gate, Planar Binding, etc. +2 CL for summoning and calling spells.
Oracle - Many of the scrying spells and +2 CL on all divination spells.

KellKheraptis

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Re: Reworking My Warmage Batman
« Reply #2 on: December 28, 2009, 02:41:05 AM »
Alright, so the cheesiest of cheese then.

As for the contemplative thing I assume you mean this section

Quote
Complete Divine: page 32
If the contemplative did not previously belong to a divine spellcasting class, she gains the ability to cast divine spells exactly as a cleric of her patron deity. Her spell progression is the same as that of a cleric. (Note: Contemplative requires "Spells: Able to cast 1st-level divine spells.")

 I'm not exactly how this would make sense, as you need divine spells to get the divine spells. What I am thinking is that we can use Rainbow Servant to get a domain and by pass that (like you said). So the early build can look like this.

Warmage 1/Rainbow Servant 2/War Weaver 5/Incantrix 10/Contemplative 1/PrC Paladin 1.

 Those levels aren't in order. I'd take the Contemplative and PrC Paladin alot earlier in the build.

Useful Domains:
Transformation - The entire polymorph line and +1 CL for all of those spells. This includes alter self, polymorph, and shapechange.
Summoner - Almost the entire summoning line with Gate, Planar Binding, etc. +2 CL for summoning and calling spells.
Oracle - Many of the scrying spells and +2 CL on all divination spells.


I like the looks of that so far, though I'd be tempted to just take Magical Training or somesuch and then sub out the domain from 2 levels of RS for Knowledge Devotion.  I'm also entertaining the notion of using damage-adding metamagic with a level of Spellwarp Sniper, to massively increase the number of viable sniping spells, and increase the viability of SoD/SoL/SoS with a naturally MAD class.
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dark_samuari

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Re: Reworking My Warmage Batman
« Reply #3 on: December 28, 2009, 05:16:21 AM »
So, what's the overall goal with this character? Is it just power? I ask because it seems like you're looking to master a lot of pathways and it may detract from the purpose of such a character (which I am liking by the way!).

Havok4

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Re: Reworking My Warmage Batman
« Reply #4 on: December 28, 2009, 02:25:21 PM »
I think the goal of the character is not just power but insane flexibility. The ability to have the proper spell available for any situation ever without preparation is basically a playable way to say "I win DnD".

DerWille

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Re: Reworking My Warmage Batman
« Reply #5 on: December 28, 2009, 04:20:35 PM »
Alright, so the cheesiest of cheese then.

As for the contemplative thing I assume you mean this section

Quote
Complete Divine: page 32
If the contemplative did not previously belong to a divine spellcasting class, she gains the ability to cast divine spells exactly as a cleric of her patron deity. Her spell progression is the same as that of a cleric. (Note: Contemplative requires "Spells: Able to cast 1st-level divine spells.")

 I'm not exactly how this would make sense, as you need divine spells to get the divine spells. What I am thinking is that we can use Rainbow Servant to get a domain and by pass that (like you said). So the early build can look like this.

Warmage 1/Rainbow Servant 2/War Weaver 5/Incantrix 10/Contemplative 1/PrC Paladin 1.

 Those levels aren't in order. I'd take the Contemplative and PrC Paladin alot earlier in the build.

Useful Domains:
Transformation - The entire polymorph line and +1 CL for all of those spells. This includes alter self, polymorph, and shapechange.
Summoner - Almost the entire summoning line with Gate, Planar Binding, etc. +2 CL for summoning and calling spells.
Oracle - Many of the scrying spells and +2 CL on all divination spells.


I like the looks of that so far, though I'd be tempted to just take Magical Training or somesuch and then sub out the domain from 2 levels of RS for Knowledge Devotion.  I'm also entertaining the notion of using damage-adding metamagic with a level of Spellwarp Sniper, to massively increase the number of viable sniping spells, and increase the viability of SoD/SoL/SoS with a naturally MAD class.

 I'm having a hard time following why magical training would be useful. It only gives you arcane can trips. Wouldn't the warmage have a few of those already? Also how would spellwarp sniper help us as a 1 level dip? Spellwarp is like the eldritch tapestry. You can only warp a spell up to your level in the PrC.

 But going with that idea we can use Assassin's Stance to get sneak attack. So we can have something like...

Warmage 1/Rainbow Servant 2/War Weaver 5/Spellwarp Sniper 5/Contemplative 1/Sacred Exorcist 1/PrC Paladin 1/Incantrix 4

 The best way to get sneak attack is through a martial item, a novice shadowhand item is 3,000 gold and gives any maneuver up to 3rd level. We can get one of those in time for Spellwarp Sniper.




KellKheraptis

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Re: Reworking My Warmage Batman
« Reply #6 on: December 28, 2009, 04:31:10 PM »
I was flatly ignoring the SA requirement, since there's a million ways to get it, even with full progression.  The Maneuver item fits best, as I'd have one for each discipline anyhow.  Where does it state such with the SwSn btw?  I remember no such restriction, however that does give me an idea for another twist to it (ever wanted to spellwarp a Maw of Chaos...) with Legacy Champion.  And Havok, the idea is obscene versatility available 24/7, on the fly.  His plans are whatever they need to be at the exact moment in time he is encountered.  The only constant in the entire equation is that action abuse > all.  After that, I'm giving him as many tricks as possible :P
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DerWille

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Re: Reworking My Warmage Batman
« Reply #7 on: December 28, 2009, 05:06:14 PM »
Hahaha, my op-fu is still weak so I only know of the assassin's stance trick. What are the others?

Here's where it has the restriction

Quote
Complete Scoundrel: page 64
Spellwarp (Ex):....

Each time you advance a level in this class, the maximum level of spell that you can affect increases by one. For example, a 3rd-level spellwarp sniper can warp spells of up to 3rd level.


KellKheraptis

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Re: Reworking My Warmage Batman
« Reply #8 on: December 28, 2009, 05:24:49 PM »
Hahaha, my op-fu is still weak so I only know of the assassin's stance trick. What are the others?

Here's where it has the restriction

Quote
Complete Scoundrel: page 64
Spellwarp (Ex):....

Each time you advance a level in this class, the maximum level of spell that you can affect increases by one. For example, a 3rd-level spellwarp sniper can warp spells of up to 3rd level.



Bleh...means I need to find a 1st level blast for the Spellthief then :P  Other means include assassination (I think) weapon enhancement, the two others that came before it that did functionally the same thing, Unseen Seer (that might or might not have an SA req...have to look at my versatility build for that guy...also had a Facty base), base the class on Arcane Swordsage if you wanna go full cheese ahead, and um...I'm doing this from the hip without books, so that's what I've got off the top of my head :P  A good start though.
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KellKheraptis

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Re: Reworking My Warmage Batman
« Reply #9 on: December 28, 2009, 07:13:11 PM »
Here's an expansion on the alternate path of RS : at least two of our Domains will be Incarnum and Destiny.  These both have exclusive domain spells that don't appear in the normal progressions of Sor/Wiz or Cleric, and with at least 3 levels of Incantatrix, they become absolutely wicked for persistifying.  Free rerolls+automatic full essentia/soulmelds/chakra binds in most locations = sexy!  Access to Incarnum alone adds a ton of versatility, even if it doesn't get the Heart or Totem chakras.  For a third one, I would nominate Hero from OA (I believe that's the one that had Giant Size), or Pride, for the free reroll on a Nat 1.  Technically, a ToAL can get the Wu-Jen list, and once it's known, it's a moot point keeping the book.  Call it backstory research, and it would tie us in nicely with Knowledge Affiliation's "STFU Caster" capstone.  Now, how would this compare to the Spellwarp Incantatrix, as there's still a few levels free for nabbing a few in SWS (I think)?
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DerWille

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Re: Reworking My Warmage Batman
« Reply #10 on: December 28, 2009, 10:26:48 PM »
If I'm hearing you right, the build would be:

Warmage 1/Rainbow Servant 10/Incantrix 3/War Weaver 5/PrC Paladin 1

 It's hard to tell with these. This one is far less cheesy, still has action abuse but has unique spells. The SpWpSnip can try to get persistent split ray shenanigans going on if he worked hard enough.

 While those unique spells are nice, I don't think they'll serve us too well. The Incarnum domain is definitely awesome, but if we're going to mix that in as well, we'll have to lose at least 2 caster levels (War Weaver and Incarnate). However we can adapt the Sovereign Speaker to be a different collection of deities who just so happen to have awesome domains. We'll call them the Awesome Host

 Warmage 1/Rainbow Servant 2/War Weaver 5/Sacred Exorcist 1/PrC Paladin 1/Contemplative 1/Awesome Speaker 5/Incantrix 3/Divine Oracle 1

This set up gives cleric spell access, warmage spell access, paladin spell access, turn undead, and 6 domains. We can then pick up Incarnum, Destiny, Transformation, Spell, Oracle, and Charm domains.

 That spell domain will let us emulate any arcane spell 6th level or lower. The other domains will give us some great spells like Shapechange, Polymorph Any Object, some party facing, and all of those unique spells.

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Re: Reworking My Warmage Batman
« Reply #11 on: December 28, 2009, 10:45:13 PM »
Well, if we adapt the Sovereign Speaker, there's no point in snagging most of those domains, as they don't provide a hugely useful domain power.  The point of PrC Pally is snagging the Sor/Wiz list with Sword of the Arcane Order, and as a side benefit, autoquickening through Battle Blessing.  Now another possibility I hadn't entertained, expanding on cementing that (as is, it's still RAW, but a lot of DM's will balk at it), was using Geomancer, as one of my gish builds from the old guide did, only we can now fit all 5 levels of Abjurant Champion into it.

With the SS build, I'd take Pride, Incarnum, Destiny (gives uncanny dodge IIRC), Fate (free rerolls are nice), and if there's one that gives Evasion, that one.  If not, War isn't bad for qualifying for SWS.  The persistifying idea made me think of Spellguard of Silverymoon, which with one lost CL isn't a bad choice either for 5 levels.  Nabs Spellguard, which with Magic of the Land will allow anything to go in the tapestry, and also picks up +1 CL from Spell Power at SGoSm 5.  Is Divine Oracle for picking up the domain?  Also, if I dip DO, I'll pick up 2 levels to get evasion that way.

Soo...Warmage 1/RS 2/War Weaver 5/PrC Pally 1 (since we're at fractional 4 BAB)/Incantatrix 3/Sacred Exorcist 1/Contemplative 1/Seldarine Speaker 3 (for our three main ones we need, and because I'm an old school bladesinger)/Mindbender 1 (at 18th to snag Mindsight)/Divine Oracle 2 (to pick up another tradable domain, and for ironclad evasion, improved with incarnum trickery).  Not bad so far, but no SWS.  Wonder what's expendable/enterable earlier, since SacEx and Contemplative are above lvl 10.
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DerWille

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Re: Reworking My Warmage Batman
« Reply #12 on: December 28, 2009, 11:21:06 PM »
I was under the impression that Sword of the Arcane Order required ranger or paladin level 4. If we can nab the entire list that way then ignore the sovereign speaker. I was only using it to expand our spell list.

 The War domain gives weapon proficiency and weapon focus. You're thinking of the Elf domain for point blank shot. So we can change the build up a little.

Warmage 1/RS 2/War Weaver 5/Prc Paladin 1/Incantrix 3/Contemplative 1/Spell Warp Sniper 5/Divine Oracle 2

 We lose the mindbender, scared exorcist, and sovereign speaker levels, but we can pick up full SpWpSnp.


KellKheraptis

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Re: Reworking My Warmage Batman
« Reply #13 on: December 29, 2009, 01:08:57 AM »
I was under the impression that Sword of the Arcane Order required ranger or paladin level 4. If we can nab the entire list that way then ignore the sovereign speaker. I was only using it to expand our spell list.

 The War domain gives weapon proficiency and weapon focus. You're thinking of the Elf domain for point blank shot. So we can change the build up a little.

Warmage 1/RS 2/War Weaver 5/Prc Paladin 1/Incantrix 3/Contemplative 1/Spell Warp Sniper 5/Divine Oracle 2

SotAO falls under the Dragon Magic trick, so once we've got 4 effective levels of Paladin or Ranger spellcasting (i.e. once we have one level of PrC Pally), we have met the req.  And good call on the domain...was thinking Arcane Archer, which needs both.  I gotta make a store run, but I'll see what I can do when I get back.  Is SWS in the online archive btw?
 We lose the mindbender, scared exorcist, and sovereign speaker levels, but we can pick up full SpWpSnp.


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Re: Reworking My Warmage Batman
« Reply #14 on: December 29, 2009, 01:28:43 AM »
Does the Dragon Magic trick allow an Archivist to take SotAO and Battle Blessing?

because that would cover about 99% of all the spells printed. Sure, you don't cast like a warmage, but you have Uncanny Forethought so you're pretty close.

EDIT: Dragon Magic 15 is the trick, right? In the initiate feat section? Because that is specific to initiate feats.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2009, 01:38:41 AM by bearsarebrown »

KellKheraptis

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Re: Reworking My Warmage Batman
« Reply #15 on: December 29, 2009, 02:13:20 AM »
Does the Dragon Magic trick allow an Archivist to take SotAO and Battle Blessing?

because that would cover about 99% of all the spells printed. Sure, you don't cast like a warmage, but you have Uncanny Forethought so you're pretty close.

EDIT: Dragon Magic 15 is the trick, right? In the initiate feat section? Because that is specific to initiate feats.

I don't see why it wouldn't, and it's specific to sharing a spell list.  That exploit with PrC pally isn't even mine, surprisingly, though butting it onto Warmage is :D  I'd love to see it on a spontaneous archivist, but alas, that's a full blown house-rule (unless of course UA Spontaneous Divine Casters applies to Archivists as well by extension, in which case...oh my).
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Re: Reworking My Warmage Batman
« Reply #16 on: December 30, 2009, 01:49:21 AM »
Can you post your build please?

KellKheraptis

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Re: Reworking My Warmage Batman
« Reply #17 on: December 30, 2009, 01:59:03 AM »
Can you post your build please?

That's the point, at the moment the build is once again a work-in-progress.  The original one had 10 levels of Rainbow Servant, 1 of Warmage, 4 of PrC Pally, and the rest were open for customization.  Dragon Magic changed all that, by requiring few PrC Pally levels, and Contemplative gives the same benefit of RS with a single level.  Now, the sweet part of all this is ToAL abuse can let a Geomancer pick up most/all of the same tricks, and all the spells, with Ex Pounce and 16 BAB, and THAT build I will post once I finish cooking late dinner :)
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Re: Reworking My Warmage Batman
« Reply #18 on: December 30, 2009, 02:15:53 AM »
That sounds like a very nice build overall. Especially given the amount of room left for customization.

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Re: Reworking My Warmage Batman
« Reply #19 on: December 30, 2009, 02:50:06 AM »
That sounds like a very nice build overall. Especially given the amount of room left for customization.

Eh, not really.  3 levels of Warmage+10 levels of Geomancer = BAB 9 at level 13.  5/5 from Abjurant Champion means 14/18, so the last two have to be full BAB.  One will be PrC Pally, for Battle Blessing and SotAO, giving us the full Sor/Wiz list spontaneously and autoquicken that can't be dispelled, and the other is any full BAB with casting progression.  My vote would be either Spellsword or Dragonslayer.  I can't remember which one has easier requirements, but that'd be the one I vote for.  So far we'll be at 2 feats needed, plus whatever we use as the ending dip, leaving a TON of room for adding stuff.  Even if we don't pick up persist tech like the others, we'll have a lot of melee capability, and the build is more viable in lower power games (and if nothing else you're a spontaneous wizard without a single lost CL).
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