Author Topic: Level 30 Arcanist.. Second opinions wanted  (Read 2024 times)

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keyes2k4

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Level 30 Arcanist.. Second opinions wanted
« on: December 23, 2009, 01:42:32 PM »
So one of my DM's decided to have us try a one time level 30 epic campaign one-shot.  Being an avid min-maxer, I decided that playing a wizard would be best, but my affinity for blasting the crap out of my enemies seems to have gotten the better of me, so I'm strongly considering my feat progression.

So here's my plan

Wiz 5/incantatrix 10/Frostmage 5/Incantatrix (epic) 10
OR
Sorc 6/Rainbow servant 10/Frostmage 4/Incantatrix 10

Feats For wizard look something like this:
1: Collegiate Wizard (CArc 181)
3: Maximize Spell (PHB)
5 (wiz bonus): Widen Spell (phb)
6: Eschew Materials (Phb) - Pre-req for Ignore Material Components (epic)
6 (incant bonus): Empower Spell (PHB)
9: Energy Substitution (cold) (CArc 78)
9 (Incant Bonus): Twin Spell (CArc 84)
12: Energy Admixture (CArc 78)
12 (Incant Bonus): Extend Spell (PHB)
15: Frozen casting (Frostburn) -prereq for Frost mage
15 (Incant Bonus): Persistant spell (pgtf)
18: Quicken Spell (PHB)
21: Epic Spellcasting (ELH 55)
-Special note, DM is giving us 1 free of cost epic spell, +5000 EXP for spending on stuff, and cutting the cost to 10% of its original (both gold and experience cost).  In other words, Epic spells are worth the research costs for this campaign.
23 (Epic Incant Bonus): Ignore Material Component (ELH 57)
24: Enhance Spell (ELH 53)
26 (incant Bonus) Enhance Spell (ELH 53)
27: Improved Metamagic (ELH 59)
29 (incant bonus) Improved Metamagic (ELH 59)
30: Automatic quicken

Feats for Sorc 6/Rainbow servant 10/Frostmage 4/Incantatrix 10 look a little different
1: Maximize Spell (PHB)
3: Extend Spell (PHB)
5 Eschew Materials (PHB)
6: Empower Spell (PHB)
9: Rapid Metamagic (Complete Mage 46)
12: Energy Substitution (Cold) (CArc 78)
15: Frozen Magic (frostburn)
18: Energy Admixture (CArc 78)
21: Enhance spell (ELH 53)
21 (Incant Bonus) Twin Spell (CArc 84)
24: Ignore Material Components (ELH 57)
24 (Incant Bonus): Enhance Spell (ELH 53)
27: Improved Metamagic (ELH 57)
27 (Incant Bonus): Persistant Spell (Pgtf)
30: Improved Metamagic (ELH 57)

I'm rather inexperienced in terms of epic campaigns.  Am I ruining my character by trying to be a blaster who uses energy damage?  I figure worst case scenario my enemies will have immunity to magic or energy or have evasion.  The reason I'm including frostmage 4 is so that I can bypass energy resistance or immunity to an extent.  I really have no idea what I'm up against here. A double enhanced, admixtured, twinned, maximized, empowered fireball would do 360 fire and 360 cold damage and then another 30d6 cold and fire damage each (although I didn't add in the piercing cold metamagic which would allow me to bypass resistance and immunity to some extent.). If I need to get past SR I was thinking orbs or blast of flame.

For protection spells I was thinking greater ironguard from SPC, celerity, and elemental body should cover many of the grounds, but I'm still not 100% on spells, as they depend very highly on what I end up with for class.

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Re: Level 30 Arcanist.. Second opinions wanted
« Reply #1 on: December 23, 2009, 05:09:58 PM »
Is you DM the sort that likes you to blast things as an arcanist?

My approach to "kill it with magic" is usually to build towards "I can see you, know your shoe size and what you had for breakfast, and am currently aiming a bolt-o-doom at you, and you don't even know I exist", and focus on the first strike rather than maximizing damage.  Damage can be maxed waaaaaay past the amount of HP things actually have fairly easily when you have more than a dozen feats to play with and Epic WBL.

KellKheraptis

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Re: Level 30 Arcanist.. Second opinions wanted
« Reply #2 on: December 24, 2009, 01:38:31 PM »
First off, do you have any qualms about being evil?  Violate Spell+Corrupt Spell = 100% Vile Damage.  One level of Spellwarp Sniper + Sculpt Spell (the second being optimal for most GOD mages anyhow, and with 30 levels we can afford the dip in SwSn) + Area-Spell-With-Long-Range will give you a non-typed sniper rifle.  Just those two applied to a fireball with Arcane Thesis will give you a 1st level slot, add Blistering and Empower and it's a cantrip.  Reserves of Strength (also good for most wizards...ever see a supersonic phantom steed...) in the mix uncaps it, so with minimal investment in items/spells you can easily get 40d6+80 from a CANTRIP as a targeted ray.  Add in something with +3 MM to make it 1st level again, and restore it constantly with a cheapo pearl of power.  Hell, add in Maximize and Fell Drain, and each blast will have a negative level.

Another option is magic missle+Reserves of Strength+Fell Drain.  Auto-hit, CL/2 missles, each doing 1d4+1 (or +3 with Blistering Spell if given the [Fire] descriptor) and 1 negative level.  20 negative levels debuffs pretty well anything, and is a great setup for a Save or Die as your standard (quicken the MM).  Also, we will be a very sad Legion if I don't see Persistent Spell in there with 10+ levels of Incantatrix (well, 3+ since Metamagic Effect basically gives Int Bonus free metamagic applications per day).
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Shadowhunter

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Re: Level 30 Arcanist.. Second opinions wanted
« Reply #3 on: December 24, 2009, 07:32:48 PM »
Isn't there a  errata somewere that states that Arcane Thesis can't actually lower the spell level beoynd its original?

Or was that a Sage ruling?

Not that I do think it matters since it's fricckin level 30, you're supposed to be able to pull of this shit by now :lmao
[Spoiler]
Quote from: Runestar
the most effective optimization is the one you can actually get away with.  :smirk

Quote from: Vinom
(A group of nerds are called a murder because like crows we are anti-social, like shiny things, and often squack at each other over nothing for hours)

I often have to remind people not to underrate divination.  The ability to effectively metagame without actually metagaming beats the ability to set things on fire more times than not.
[/quote]
[/spoiler]

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NeverGetDrunkButStaySober

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Re: Level 30 Arcanist.. Second opinions wanted
« Reply #4 on: December 24, 2009, 07:45:50 PM »
First off, do you have any qualms about being evil?  Violate Spell+Corrupt Spell = 100% Vile Damage.  One level of Spellwarp Sniper + Sculpt Spell (the second being optimal for most GOD mages anyhow, and with 30 levels we can afford the dip in SwSn) + Area-Spell-With-Long-Range will give you a non-typed sniper rifle.  Just those two applied to a fireball with Arcane Thesis will give you a 1st level slot, add Blistering and Empower and it's a cantrip.  Reserves of Strength (also good for most wizards...ever see a supersonic phantom steed...) in the mix uncaps it, so with minimal investment in items/spells you can easily get 40d6+80 from a CANTRIP as a targeted ray.  Add in something with +3 MM to make it 1st level again, and restore it constantly with a cheapo pearl of power.  Hell, add in Maximize and Fell Drain, and each blast will have a negative level.

Another option is magic missle+Reserves of Strength+Fell Drain.  Auto-hit, CL/2 missles, each doing 1d4+1 (or +3 with Blistering Spell if given the [Fire] descriptor) and 1 negative level.  20 negative levels debuffs pretty well anything, and is a great setup for a Save or Die as your standard (quicken the MM).  Also, we will be a very sad Legion if I don't see Persistent Spell in there with 10+ levels of Incantatrix (well, 3+ since Metamagic Effect basically gives Int Bonus free metamagic applications per day).
*sigh*
  • Corrupt Spell+Violate Spell makes half the spell's damage into unhealable vile damage, and the other half into "regular" unholy damage.
  • Arcane Thesis cannot lower a spell's level to lower than the original (check the errata - the FAQ is simply wrong).
  • Fell Drain operates on a per-target basis. ("You can alter a spell that deals damage to foes so that any living creature that is dealt damage also gains a negative level.") Bolding mine.
  • I'd be quite wary of that interpretation of Reserves of Strength in an actual game unless it was made clear that high optimization was the order of the day.

NeverGetDrunkButStaySober

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Re: Level 30 Arcanist.. Second opinions wanted
« Reply #5 on: December 24, 2009, 08:08:46 PM »
To be constructive, I recall that there's some spell in Spell Compendium that grants +1 damage per die on spells cast in the area with the cold descriptor. (Cold Snap, Cleric 6/Druid 5, huge area) If you can tag the spell with other descriptors (hint: start with something else and use Snowcasting), there are Acid Sheath (SL 5, personal for Persistent) for acid spells and Raging Flame (SL 1, tie it to a Mythal or the Shadow seed). Wish I could remember anything appropriate for sonic and electricity damage. Additionally, sorcerers have a substitution level (5th) in Planar Handbook that converts half a spell's damage to force. And there's not much (Force Dragons and Void Incarnates) that can do anything about force damage at those levels.

What's Frost Mage getting you, anyway, besides Piercing Cold (which you can get by not spending Frozen Magic) and the cold subtype (which you can get with a Savage Species ritual or Mantle of the Icy Soul)? Because if that's all, I'd recommend Recaster on the wizard build - good for expanding your spell list (try Consumptive Field and Miracle) and boosting your metamagic (see Incantatrix). As for the sorcerer build...dunno, try adding more levels of Incantatrix for better class abilities and one more epic feat.

KellKheraptis

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Re: Level 30 Arcanist.. Second opinions wanted
« Reply #6 on: December 24, 2009, 08:42:02 PM »
1)BoVD errata or carelessness, the original goal is fulfilled, thus null, as it removes the need to pierce energy and/or force immunity.  Even half unhealable, that's nasty.

2)Errata has once again gone out of it's way to make an ass out of my original posts.  Disregard previous while I go find a chainsaw and the writers at WotC (this one's for you, jackholes!  :fo )

3)You just disproved your own point.  Blistering Spell also operates on a per target basis, but would also add the +2 damage to each missle.  Magic Missle is a variable target spell, magnified in effect when all are aimed at the same target.  Fell Drain magic missles have been around for a long, long time, and are usually summarily dismissed for being easily negated.

4)No interpretation to it, that's how it's written.  Anything further and you're houserule nerfing it, i.e. DM intervention.

Also, epic Shadowcraft Mages are fully capable of spontaneously casting mythals.  Let that one sink in a moment.  Anything you want in a mythal, one cantrip away.  Talk about a hoser of a little gnome :D

P.S. NeverGetDrunkButStaySober understand I'm not trying to be argumentative, but when someone starts off their pickover with a supremely conservative and in places outright incorrect view of a build, I tend to be rather terse.  No offense intended, though.  Also, add in Paragnostic Apostle 1 to the Sorc idea, using Manifest Ethos, and it's for all intents untyped, as the Vile/Corrupt idea above, without burning a ton of feats.  Plus PA is full caster.  Hell, might even be worth it for two, to get Energy Supremacy.

P.S.S. Also, you might want to look into an Ultimate Magus.  They'll have a shit ton of free metamagic from a dual progression, and the boosts to CL will make up for the initial 1-3 level investment in a second non-wizard class.  Spellthief is a new favorite ;)
« Last Edit: December 24, 2009, 08:54:59 PM by KellKheraptis »
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NeverGetDrunkButStaySober

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Re: Level 30 Arcanist.. Second opinions wanted
« Reply #7 on: December 25, 2009, 01:56:02 AM »
I'm not being conservative so much as realistic, given the situation. (tarkin was conservative.) A group where just about anything goes can be rather lovely - I participated in one in a PbP game, and I'm working on an entry for a second here.* (Believe me, I can push at the rules just as much as you. ;) ) But you're still dealing with a DM of some sort. Dismissing a concern as "DM intervention" ignores the fact that one exists. And most games aren't quite that liberal; any live DM I've played with (not many, to be sure, fewer than the PbP ones) would balk at some of those ideas. So you hope for the best, but plan for the worst. (Note to OP: this means you'll want to ask beforehand. If the DM's fine with Reserves of Strength, by all means ditch Enhance Spell.)

(Plus, I'm not the first person to bring forth that particular argument against Fell Drain magic missiles; it was one of the minor proverbs of 339.)

Come to think of it, OP, what sorts of enemies might you be facing? (For instance, Manifest Ethos is far better if you're facing enemies from only one side of the alignment spectrum than when you're facing everything, or even just non-good stuff.)

Following Kell's UM suggestion, if you take Spellthief, also grab Master Spellthief. It mildly complicates things, but will give you a rather powerful CL. Also, come to think of it, has anyone actually made a guide on constructing epic spells - especially under certain common houserules like maximum unmitigated DCs or limits on mitigation? Because I occasionally see comments along the lines of "make epic spells, go to town", and some people may still be scratching their heads.**

Come to think of it, do you have a way of greatly increasing your save DCs? Because if you don't, your opponents will reliably make their saving throws. This is why single-target effects or Spellwarp Sniper are useful - they change the (laughable) saving throws to (not so laughable) ranged touch attacks or outright auto-hits.

*Even there, epic spells are capped somewhat, so I was having some difficulty trying to determine a way to reliably capture Soneillon (Champions of Ruin). Until I found Greater Planar Binding. And Superior Planar Summoning.

**Rough tips: Go for buffs. Ignore anything involving offensive saving throws unless you can crank out high DCs. And even then be wary. Summoning sucks unless you're grabbing something unique (which Gate can't do well). Wards against common spells, especially if you can ignore them yourself, are good. As are Mythals. And the Shadow seed (which can make other creatures). Followers are incredible at mitigation if you can get enough. Never pay the crafting XP if you can afford to use a Rod of Excellent Magic instead.

bearsarebrown

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Re: Level 30 Arcanist.. Second opinions wanted
« Reply #8 on: December 25, 2009, 02:19:28 AM »
defense is much easier to optimize then offence. NGDBSS touched on this at the end of his post, but I'll go ahead and expand on it.

I played in a no spellcasters(none at all, not even cantrips) 15 gestalt arena and ended up with

-an AC in the 90s
-displacement
-500+ HP
-fast healing
-immune too [spoiler]Acid
Gazes
Mind Affecting
Visual
Illusions
Any sight based
Ability Damage
Ability Drain
Energy Drain
Poison
Sleep
Paralysis
Polymorph
Stunning
Critical Hits
Precision Damage
Disease[/spoiler]

-14 attacks per round
-30 foot reach
-each attack dealt negative levels no save
-6 of those attacks did con damage no save
-attack in the ranges of +30 to +50

And you know what happened every match? Stalemates. (with the exception of the wholly unprepared people) One guy was a vampire with DR 40/- and Fast Healing 37 with an AC in the 60s. One or two of my attacks would land per round, but the damage would be gone by the time the next round rolled around. and he just flat couldn't hit me.


Epic magic is that on crack. Assume all saves will be made. Assume all attacks will miss. Assume that perceiving the opponent will be a challenge. Assume everyone is immune to everything. Then optimize from there.

If you're going to blast you need the damage to be untyped/funky. You need to assume that saves will be made, and everyone has evasion. SWS is great for that reason. Now pimp out your ranged touch attack. Missing is a very real concern.

KellKheraptis

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Re: Level 30 Arcanist.. Second opinions wanted
« Reply #9 on: December 25, 2009, 02:29:26 AM »
Don't forget the multiple layers of Rings of Spellbattle, otherwise if the enemy caster is anything like mine, you'll eat your own rays :P  Also assume that if they're in melee, they have a means of deflecting rays.  At the absolute upper level of CO/TO epic, it's all about buffing, and mitigating the negation of those buffs, followed by a massive DBZ style clash of the titans, assuming you don't just say fuck it and nuke the planet (which you can do well pre-epic).
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NeverGetDrunkButStaySober

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Re: Level 30 Arcanist.. Second opinions wanted
« Reply #10 on: December 25, 2009, 02:51:07 AM »
@ Kell: You'd want some of those rings to be slotless. Or equipped by other creatures. The latter is preferable, considering that the ring's spell-deflecting function requires an immediate action. Also, if you can swing it, the Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis from Tome of Magic comes in a continuous variety. Finally, find a way to block Ranged Deflection - such as a Ward against it - if you're using ranged touch attacks. One spell, and it shuts them all down.

Touching on bearsarebrown's comment, as a comparison, my entry might involve:
  • Ability scores and CL buffs (to casting, manifesting, and infusions) in the hundreds
  • Available actions in the hundreds per round
  • Vital statistics like AC and saves in the thousands
  • Hit points in the tens of thousands
  • Approximately sixty distinct immunities to a whole host of things
  • Buffs that are nearly impossible to peel down
  • Counterspelling of anything, at will
  • Severe crippling of melee attacks - damage is quartered, if you even succeed on the unblockable 60% miss chance

And that's with some nerfs on things. (Epic spells are less powerful, and anything involving deities in person is banned.) Epic defenses can be rather brutal.

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Re: Level 30 Arcanist.. Second opinions wanted
« Reply #11 on: December 26, 2009, 06:41:01 AM »
out of curiosity what are you using to negate the stun from reserves of STR?