Advice on a cleric

[DerWille]

I would dump dex to 8 (You don't need it) and put that into intelligence. That should give you a 14 int and 8 skill points per level. With your other flaw I would take Quicken and then DMM Quicken. I would have my feat progression look like this.

1) Adamantine Body (I don't know what this does)
Flaw: Extra Turning
Flaw: Quicken Spell
3. DMM: Quicken
6: Power Attack
9) Holy Warrior

 If DMM is out then maybe... take Power Attack as a flaw, Leap Attack at level 6, and your level 3 feat be Improved Initiative (Combine this was the spell Sign from Spell Compendium for another +4 to initiative. Warning Daggers (+5 competence bonus) and Eager Daggers (+2 untyped) to initiative too should make up for everything. They're +1's).

[RobbyPants]

My concern with DMM is that it eats up a lot of turning attempts.  The DM is likely to be stingy on permanent magical items, so I can be almost 100% certain to never see a Nightstick in my career.  That means I'd need ten turn attempts to be able to use DMM: Quicken twice in any given day.  So, given just a few turn attempts, DMM: Persist might be a better option in that I only need seven to pull it off once per day, and that alone can be worth it.  However, it's a three-feat-sink, and I'm not sure I want to invest that much into it.

As for Leap Attack, that requires 8 ranks in Jump, which is level 5 if I can get it as a class skill, otherwise it's level 13.  Do you know of any easy way to get Jump as a class skill without multiclassing out?  I may be able to talk the DM into allowing the +2/+2 skill feats to add those skills as class skills (I've done this in my games before and he liked it), in which case, Acrobatic would give it to me as a class skill.  Other than that, are there any nice feats/ACFs that let me pick up Jump as a cloistered cleric?

Given the DM's current stance on magic items, this can be tough for me to envision a character.  That one item up front is nice, but at about 5th level, you start to feel the pain.  This is a lot of why I like to run casters in his games.  I'll have to ask him how he feels about crafting.  Craft Wondrous Items might actually be a really good idea for me, and the party.

[DerWille]

Ah, I forgot about Clerics not having Jump. Yeah, if he is that stingy on magical items, definitely get Craft Wondrous Item. That could make a pretty good level 3 feat and then take power attack at levle 6 (You'll have a good amount of BAB to trade out by then).

So maybe...

1) Adamantine Body
Flaw: Extra Turning
Flaw: Improved Initiative
3) Craft Wondrous Item
6) Power Attack
9) Holy Warrior

 As for what classes to use... not exactly sure really. You could try doing a little domain collecting and then turning them if you take Ordained Champion.

[RobbyPants]

Yeah, it seems like Power Attack right at level 3 isn't that good with a BAB of 1 unless I'm trying to collect prereqs for something like Shock Trooper.  Should I bother with Improved Bull Rush and Shock Trooper?  Not getting Leap Attack certainly make it less awesome having a 2:1 ratio instead of 4:1.

What's Holy Warrior?  Is that in Complete Champion?  At this point, I'd likely take Quicken Spell at 9th level, as I'll have 5th level spells to use on Quickened 1st level spells.  It worked great for the wizard I played, and I think it could work well for a cleric as well.

I'm not sure I'll take Ordained Champion because of the two caster levels lost.  Is it that good of a PrC?

[Hallack]

Yes, Holy Warrior is a Reserve Feat from Complete Champion that gives you a weapon damage bonus based on highest unused War Domain spell.

[RobbyPants]

Yes, Holy Warrior is a Reserve Feat from Complete Champion that gives you a weapon damage bonus based on highest unused War Domain spell.

That's right.  I do like that one.  I was getting it mixed up with that [TACTICAL] feat that lets you do things with positive or negative energy.  I didn't remember that one jumping off the page at me.

[RobbyPants]

Any advice on flaws?  If I drop my Dex to 8, I'm not sure I want to take Vulnerable anymore.  As I mentioned earlier, if the group has a warlock, I'm more comfortable taking Shaky, but if not, I don't want to totally exclude myself from ranged combat.

I could take Poor Reflexes, but with a Dex of 8, that pretty much makes sure that I fail every Reflex save I make.  It's not the end of the world, but if I face much in the way of blasting, it could be problematic.  Murky Eyed seems like the defacto flaw everyone takes.

Another option it to just take one flaw, and not take Improved Initiative...


One last thing: does anyone have any clever ideas for getting a cloistered cleric Jump as a class skill without multiclassing?

[juton]

One last thing: does anyone have any clever ideas for getting a cloistered cleric Jump as a class skill without multiclassing?

There are feats that will let you get Jump as a class skill, maybe there's a template or a domain somewhere that will have less opportunity cost.

As for flaws, you could consider taking the ones that lower your fort or your will save. Sure, having those saves lowed sucks, but your a Cleric so your saves should be good anyways.

[RobbyPants]

Fort seems a little weird for a warforged, but it might be a really good thing.  They're immune to half of the stuff that forces a Fort save in the first place.  I still have to be careful because Church Inquisitor only advances Will.

[g2tegracer]

Edit: Oops, hit post a little to early.  Sorry for wall of text

I'm in the process of playing a Cleric for a newly started campaign.  My DM and group kind of implied that they wanted me to pick up some slack because they are all playing "flavorful" characters.  We are at 3rd level now.  Our group consists of a Paladin going into Pious Templar, a fighter going into Dwarven Defender and a Rogue going into a homebrew'd version of assassin.  Not a single true caster among them.  The DM is not a big stickler on one PrC at a time or anything, so long as all of the PrC's have some relevance to my character and I play consistently.

I won't be anywhere near as magic item starved as it sounds like you will, so that obviously changes things.  But, with just a Reliquary Holy Symbol (MIC) and a +1 cha bonus you should be able to swing 2 persists out of this build.  This isn't the exact build I'm using, you would have to drop 2 levels of Sacred Exorcist and add in 2 levels of Divine Disciple from PGtF, but you don't have access to that book so I changed it a little.

Obviously my situation is a little different, but maybe you'll see something you like.

Cleric 3/Church Inquisitor8/Divine Disciple2/Ordained Champ3/Contemplative1/Sacred Exorcist3

Flaws - Inattentive and Shaky

Progression
1 - Cleric
     War (to qualify for OrdChamp and Holy Warrior)
     Planning (Extend Spell)
     Flaw - Extra Turning
     Flaw - Extra Turning
     Human - Persistant Spell
     1st level - DMM: Persist
2 - Cleric
3 - Cleric - Power Attack
4 - Church Inquisitor - Trade Inquisition Domain for Knowledge Devotion
5 - Church Inquisitor
6 - Church Inquisitor - Strength or Law Devotion
7 - Church Inquisitor
8 - Divine Disciple - Extra Domain, Time
9 - Divine Disciple - Holy Warrior
10 - Ordained Champion - Extra Domain, Spell
11 - Contemplative - Extra Domain, Pride
12 - Ordained Champion - Travel Devotion
13 - Ordained Champion
14 - Church Inquisitor
15 - Church Inquisitor- Quicken Spell
16 - Church Inquisitor
17 - Sacred Exorcist
18 - Sacred Exorcist - Whatever
19 - Sacred Exorcist
20 - Church Inquisitor

This allows levels 3 through 16 to have significant increases in power with little "dead" levels.  Divine Power and Lesser Holy Transformation at 7, Righteous Might at 9.  The Church Inquisitor levels look funny because I was trying to spread them out so that the progression of Knowledge(Local) isn't so early that it ends up capped low.

You might need more Extra Turnings to get Persist to work without magic items.  It's reasonable to take the 6th and 12th level feats as Extra Turning and try to get the devotions through bonus domains (probably dropping quicken and using the last feat slot for a devotion feat).  I'm planning on getting 1 Nightstick, Reliquary Holy Symbol and Bead of Divine Power (Dragon305).  Those with 2 extra turnings and Eagle's Splendor to boost my 12 cha should net 21 turning attempts.

Sacred Exorcist might not be the greatest cap to this, I just figured there was enough power here already.  You should be able to end up with close to +20 to knowledge checks by level 20 with this build, before spells or items. 

Third level OrdChamp channeling ability + holy warrior + cleric buffs + power attack + knowledge devotion + magic weapon should make for very good melee damage.  Lots of side special abilities between the PrC's.

Oh, one last note.  If you are going to take PrC's that don't progress turning, then it is my opinion you should find other things to do with your turn attempts.  DMM is the obvious choice, but there are some other decent Divine feats.  With an underpowered Turn Undead ability, it's going to fail when you need it most, most of the time.

[RobbyPants]

Flaws - Inattentive and Shaky

I remember looking at inattentive before.  It's nice because I'll have a good Wis to balance it out, although I probably won't be spending any skill points on Spot or Listen.  If I take that (and possibly even if I don't), our group is likely to get ambushed a lot.

You might need more Extra Turnings to get Persist to work without magic items.  It's reasonable to take the 6th and 12th level feats as Extra Turning and try to get the devotions through bonus domains (probably dropping quicken and using the last feat slot for a devotion feat).  I'm planning on getting 1 Nightstick, Reliquary Holy Symbol and Bead of Divine Power (Dragon305).  Those with 2 extra turnings and Eagle's Splendor to boost my 12 cha should net 21 turning attempts.

I'm torn on DMM: Persist.  I'd have to ask the DM if he'd even allow it.  I know he's allowed DMM: Quicken in the past, but that's five turn attempts per use, and I'm not sure I want to spend the feats on that.  Even if I do go with DMM: Persist and just figure on one use per day (seven turn attempts), I still need to either spend three feats or take the Planning and/or Undeath domains to reduce the feat cost.

Sacred Exorcist might not be the greatest cap to this, I just figured there was enough power here already.  You should be able to end up with close to +20 to knowledge checks by level 20 with this build, before spells or items. 

I like Sacred Exorsist, but given the rest of the group, I'm not sure I want to be Lawful Good.  I'll probably go Lawful Neutral for Church Inquisitor and call it good.

Third level OrdChamp channeling ability + holy warrior + cleric buffs + power attack + knowledge devotion + magic weapon should make for very good melee damage.  Lots of side special abilities between the PrC's.

I still haven't given Ordained Champion a good read through.  The loss of two caster levels really turned me off from it.  Is it really that good?

Oh, one last note.  If you are going to take PrC's that don't progress turning, then it is my opinion you should find other things to do with your turn attempts.  DMM is the obvious choice, but there are some other decent Divine feats.  With an underpowered Turn Undead ability, it's going to fail when you need it most, most of the time.

For now, I was planning on getting six turn attemps to be able to use Law Devotion two additional times per day.  That feat is a jewel at low level play, and it looks like it scales to +5 and even +7 at higher levels.  I think I can justify one Extra Turning for that.

[Operation Shoestring]

I still haven't given Ordained Champion a good read through.  The loss of two caster levels really turned me off from it.  Is it really that good?

Vs two caster levels... eh not really,  But if you are melee focused, it's worthwhile.  Free quicken on Divine Power is nice.

[RobbyPants]

We're going to be playing today, so I figured I had to put this guy on paper.  He turned out like this:

Warforged Cloistered Cleric 1

Str: 14
Dex: 12
Con: 16
Int: 14
Wis: 16
Cha: 8

Feats:
Adamantine Body
Martial Weapon: Bastard Sword (war domain, deity's favored weapon)
Weapon Focus: Bastard Sword
Law Devotion (swapped domain)
Knowledge Devotion (flaw 1)
Extra Turning (flaw 2)

Flaws:
Vulnerable (should I swap this for Poor Reflexes?)
Inattentive

Domains:
War
Knowledge
Law (swapped for Law Devotion)


It was sad.  I didn't realized until last night that the only reason cloistered clerics get all Knowledge skills as class skills is because of the Knowledge domain.  So, if I burn the domain for Knowledge Devotion, I lose all of those as class skills!  So, I had to take a second flaw to pick it up.


Anyway, it's been a long time since I've run any type of melee cleric before, and I'm having a hard time picking spells to prepare.  I'm Lawful Neutral, so I'm planning to spontaneously Cure, so I don't need to prepare any healing.  Assume the PHB and Spell Compendium are fair game.  Are there any real goodies at level 1?  Right now, I'm looking at Cause Fear (shrinking the size of the group we're fighting) and Obscuring Mist for all around confusion.  Shield of Faith looks intriguing, but I probably wouldn't waste an action on it at this point.

Any good ideas?

[Agita]

It was sad.  I didn't realized until last night that the only reason cloistered clerics get all Knowledge skills as class skills is because of the Knowledge domain.  So, if I burn the domain for Knowledge Devotion, I lose all of those as class skills!  So, I had to take a second flaw to pick it up.

Well, Clerics already get three of the 'big four' knowledges by themselves, and KD gives one extra as a class skill. So you use that to pick up one of Nature or Dungeoneering, and you're mostly set.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

My concern with DMM is that it eats up a lot of turning attempts.  The DM is likely to be stingy on permanent magical items, so I can be almost 100% certain to never see a Nightstick in my career.  That means I'd need ten turn attempts to be able to use DMM: Quicken twice in any given day.  So, given just a few turn attempts, DMM: Persist might be a better option in that I only need seven to pull it off once per day, and that alone can be worth it.  However, it's a three-feat-sink, and I'm not sure I want to invest that much into it.

Use either the Destroy undead ACF from ravenloft or the rebuke vermin ACF from DotU to switch out turning for a similar ability which can still be used with divine feats.  Then take some PrC that grants turning/rebuking.

[bearsarebrown]

Azurin Cleric with a Sacred Exorcist level and a Dread Necromancer level.

3 sources of turning.

[Negative Zero]

Azurin Cleric with a Sacred Exorcist level and a Dread Necromancer level.

3 sources of turning.

A level of Bone Knight effectively doubles the Turning you get with Sacred Exorcist, too.

Couldn't you take a level of Cloistered Cleric instead of DN? I think I heard somewhere that you /can/ in fact multiclass between CC and vanilla Cleric.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

Yeah, so for maximal turning it would be something like
azurin cleric 1\ cloistered cleric 1 + rebuke vermin variant\  possibly normal cleric 1 + destroy undead variant, if that's allowed?\ dread necromancer 1\ something\sacred exorcist.

I think we're drifting off topic, though.

[Tonymitsu]

As far as Ordained Champion's loss of two caster levels goes... it's a little harsh, since that means you can only lose one more in your build.  But for tanking and melee purposes it does three big things for you.

You gain the War domain.  If you already had the War domain, you gain another domain of your choice.  Extra domains are always a good thing, and the War domain is the easiest way for a cleric to meet the class prereqs.

It forces Domain Spontaneity: War on you as a class feature, meaning you no longer throw for cure or inflict spells, but spells from the War Domain.  Effectively, it can be argued that if you have the Holy Warrior reserve feat, you always have a War domain spell available to cast of whatever highest level spell slot you have remaining, even if one isn't prepared.  Talk to your DM about that one first, but most lenient ones won't have a problem with it.

Finally, you are given the ability to automatically quicken spells from the War domain as you cast them, which you can also cast spontaneously without preparing them.  Unfortunately the War domain has three (arguabley four) noteworthy spells:  Magic Vestment, Divine Power, Flame Strike, and Blade Barrier.  If you get mass dispelled somehow, this would allow you to drop Magic Vestments on both your allies.  You could drop a blade barrier to protect one area of the field, and then move and attack (or drop another barrier) on the other side.  You could also drop a Flame Strike on a group of enemies near you and then take your full attack on any that survive.

[DerWille]

Yeah, so for maximal turning it would be something like
azurin cleric 1\ cloistered cleric 1 + rebuke vermin variant\  possibly normal cleric 1 + destroy undead variant, if that's allowed?\ dread necromancer 1\ something\sacred exorcist.

I think we're drifting off topic, though.

 Unfortunately it's not. When you take Cloistered Cleric, you're still taking the Cleric class, just a variant of it.