Advice on a cleric

[RobbyPants]

I'm thinking about rolling a cleric for a game soon, and I'm looking for some general advice.  It's still up in the air for what I'm looking for exactly, so I'm torn between cleric and cloistered cleric.  I like the gereral tankiness of the cleric, but I love the skills and Knowledge domain (read, Knowledge Devotion ) of the cloistered cleric.  I'm almost certain to multiclass into Church Inquisitor, which would help make up for the BAB if I go cloistered cleric.  I'll explain what the group is to help figure the best character choice.

The other two PCs:
[spoiler]One is running a wood elf monk and the other is running an elan psion (telepath).  As for the monk, the player thinks of himself as a powergamer but has no real grasp of the rules.  Picture all of the monk's suckiness squared.  So, he'll literally be a waste of space until he gets killed or the DM gives him enough magic items to carry his weight.  The psion has some potential, but the player doesn't know how to pick powers, and she's reluctant to take advice in character building.  She's good out of combat with stuff like Charm, but in combat, she'll likely rely on Energy Push ( ) and Mind Thrust.  She may or may not remember that she has Entangling Ectoplasm.[/spoiler]

So, that being said, I kind of want to be tanky, because we're seriously lacking a bruiser of any sort.  Healing also seems useful, because we're otherwise lacking it, and these two PCs will drop like flies after more than one fight.  At the same time, I want to have options other than "get hit in the face to save the party".

As for domains, I'm strongly considering taking War to get a descent weapon, Law to swap out for Law Devotion, and Knowledge Devotion (either through a feat, or via the knowledge domain from cloistered cleric).  The game will either be first or third level to start.  We likely won't see much above 10t level.

Here's a list of available sources:
- Core
- All completes
- Possibly Tome of Battle
- Spell Compendium


So, here's a series of questions I have for all of you:

* Should I take Cleric of Cloistered Cleric?  Cleric has the advantage of heavy armor (nice at lower levels) and a bit more HP, but cloistered cleric has more skill points which actually makes Knowledge Devotion feasible.

* If I go cloistered cleric, is there any worth while way to get better defenses at lower levels?  Chain shirt, a moderate Dex, and Law Devotion can last a while.  Should I focus on anything else to get heavy armor?  I'm hesitant to multiclass out of cleric, but maybe Crusader into RKV could work...

* When should I PrC out into Church Inquisitor?  I qualify at 3rd level, but I'm tempted to take the 4th level for +1 BAB, Fort, and Will.  To me, that almost seems worth it.

* What are some of the best buffs you can think about to help a low level cleric in melee?

* Is there some other option I should seriously be considering?  The concept of "only cleric" isn't set in stone, and I wonder if some Crusader could be worth while.


Thanks in advance!

[DerWille]

 If it's going to go till level 10, a summoner could work for your tanking needs, but I don't think that's quite what you're after so...

I'd go with Cloistered Cleric with a reach weapon like a long spear and a spiked gauntlet. A chain shirt will give +4 AC + dex. We can throw Shield of Faith on top of that for another +2 and with the law devotion you'll get another +3 AC. So assuming 10 dex you'll have 19 AC at level 1. That should be enough.

 For your domains I'd go Travel Domain, Law Devotion, and Knowledge Devotion.

 As a Cleric, I wouldn't worry about my BAB all that much. Divine Power makes up for it. I'd go for Church Inquisitor as soon as possible. I'm curious, do you want to DMM or just play it straight? I could imagine that the Monk would love to have some persistent buffs. And if you're going RKV, quicken is almost a necessity.

[RobbyPants]

I have to ask the DM about his opinion of DMM.  A while ago, he let me pull of DMM (Quicken) with a cohort, but I'm not sure how he'd feel about DMM (Persist).

Regarding Divine Power, it will be a while before that's useful for me, but I'm not too worried due to Church Inquisitor.  By taking only 3 or 4 levels of cloistered cleric, I'm only 1 point behind on BAB, which isn't a big deal (especially given Knowledge Devotion as a trade-off).  Either way, my BAB becomes 3/4 once I PrC out.

Another thing I dind't think to mention is that warfoged could potentially be an option (if it's allowed, and there's a good chance it isn't).  But if it is allowed, the DM is allowing me to take racial penalties before the point buy, which pretty much mitigates the -2 Wis penalty of warforged.  Basically, if I want a 16 in Wis, it costs me 12 points instead of 16 points.  So, effectively, it allows me to "shift" the -2 penalty to a stat I don't care about.  I'll have to ask him about this one.  It quite nicely gets rid of not getting heavy armor (although at the cost of a feat).

[DerWille]

Hmm, just looking at your party, I wouldn't go too crazy with optimization. You have a blasting Psion and a Monk. Poor Monk (My first character was a Monk).

 One idea is to go Combat Reflexes + Stand Still as your first two feats (If you're human). Then pick up thicket of blades through an item later on. With your high AC, reach, and spells, you'll be able to lock down the area. However you might get a little MAD doing that. How big of a point buy is it?

[RobbyPants]

36 points.  So, I can do a bit with it if I cap out at 14, but I'd like two to three 16s.  My initial thoughts on stats as a human would be something to the effect of:

Str: 14
Dex: 14
Con: 16
Int: 10
Wis: 16
Cha: 10

But I have a lot of leeway in Dex, Int, and Cha.  I could let Cha drop to as low as 8 if I'm not worried too much about turning attempts.  I can move some of Dex to Int if I'm looking for more skill points (for Knowledges).  Really, my stats are up in the air depending on the specifics of the build.

[DavidWL]

It occurs to me that a Crusader / Bard might not be bad as another option.  With a little UMD, it could be good (although your limited list gimps the bard).

Love

[RobbyPants]

Why bard?

[zavule]

I second the summoner idea.  Maybe cloistered cleric into malconvoker for double your tanking at level 10.  Plus, if you play a neutral malconvoker you can still have that horde of skeletons following you around.  As for healing, pick up a wand of lesser vigor and call it a day.

[RobbyPants]

As for healing, pick up a wand of lesser vigor and call it a day.

I plan to do that ASAP.  I don't plan on using my spell slots for much healing.  I just wanted either Cure/Vigor spells on a spell list or possibly UMD to cure with a wand.

[DavidWL]

Why bard?

There is some feat which progresses bard w/ crusader, and a one level dip gives UMD.  Also, stereotypically, you can play a very optimized build if it is a buffer, without overshadowing your compatriots.

Best,
David

[juton]

Well I see two possible options. If you like your fellow players and you don't want to show them up too much take a Crusader dip for weapon and armor proficiency then take the stance that lets you heal your comrades with every hit. Cloistered Cleric is fine after that, I like to use fractional BAB but if you can't take 4 levels the go into church inquisitor. The Travel domain and Law devotion should be fine with that.

If you want to show your friends up, or if you think you may need to pull their weight for them you might consider straight Cleric. I think the summoner idea might work, I've found DMM Rapid Spell is handy at low levels because you can get your summons into the fight a round early. Starting at low levels the Summoner domain might be worth it for the +2 CL on summons.

[RobbyPants]

I didn't even think about Martial Spirit.  That could be handy.  It's a decent portion of what makes a low-level crusader a good tank in the first place.

So, if I make a 3rd level character, I might do something like cloistered cleric 1/crusader 1/cloistered cleric +1.  That route will cost me 4 HP but net me 24 more skill points than if I take my first level as crusader.  I'll also have to look at RKV to see if I want to persue that or not.  We'd have to reflavor Wee Jas out of the PrC to make it work, but he's usually cool with that sort of stuff.  I'll have to give him a call tonight to check on a few things.

Another question, if I can get it allowed, is Able Learner worth it to keep the Knowledge skills as class skills?  Once I PrC out, my skill points will drop dramatically, and I'll lose most of them as class skills.  Should I blow a feat to keep my skills up, or am I really just taking enough to get a +1 or +2 and not worrying about it?

[juton]

As for Able Learner and Knowledge devotion, I find those synergize best when you're going to have a character with high knowledges anyways, like a Wizard Gish. Since your going to be spending a good chunk of your 5 skill points from PRCs on Spellcraft and Concentration, and Church Inquisitor has 4 of the 6 knowledge skills used for Knowledge Devotion I think you can safely skip Able Learner. What you really want is a +6 check to your Knowledge checks, with Lore of the Gods from Complete Champion you should get an average +16 on your checks which is an average +3 attack/damage.

If you go into RKV for instance your not going to have the skill points to throw around anyways to keep leveling your knowledge checks, even with Able Learner so I wouldn't bother.

[DerWille]

It's outside of the books you have, but take a look at the Educated feat from the Player's Guide to Faerun. It gives you all knowledges as class skills and a bonus to one of them. It's a regional feat and fairly low key. You might be able to get it approved.

[RobbyPants]

I talked to the DM and he's allowing warforged.  At this point, I'm leaning toward straight warforged cloistered cleric and then PrC into Church Inquisitor.  The warforged is nice because I can take Adamantine Body to mitigate the loss of armor proficiency.  Although this does bring up one question:

Warforged get half the effect of spells from the Healing subschool and they don't heal naturally.  How does that work with Lesser Vigor?  It's a Conjuration (Healing) spell, but it doesn't "heal" you so much as it grants you fast healing.  Do I heal 1/2 a hit point per round (rounding down to zero, sadly)?  Does it work normally?

If worse comes to worst, I can see if I can pick up a wand of Repair Light Damage from a cleric with the Warforged Domain.

[Havok4]

It might be necessary to get some source of outside healing for this character, belts of healing are not affected by the warforged healing reduction.

[juton]

I think by pure RAW Lesser Vigor wouldn't work, but I can't see a DM not just halving the duration or letting you get 1 hp every other round. I think you won't have to worry to much if you have adamantine body, I don't most things will get through that DR until level 4-5 anyways.

[RobbyPants]

Yeah, the DR is a nice addition to the AC boost.  I think my best bet on healing is to get a wand of Repair Light Damage from a cleric with the Warforged domain.  I might also be able to talk the Psion into taking Psionic Repair Damage seeing as I'll be healing her, so it's only fair.

[RobbyPants]

Current Character Idea:

Okay, I talked to the DM, and we'll be starting at level 1 (we're somewhat rebooting the game).  This might mean that the monk will get rerolled into something more effective.  The player was also toying with a warlock, and those are a lot harder to screw up!  Anyway, here's the gist of what I'm thinking:

Race: Warforged

Class: Cloistered Cleric (PrC into Church Inquisitor soon)

Ability Scores: (36 point buy, apply racial penalties before point buy)

  Str: 14
  Dex: 12
  Con: 18 (nat 16)
  Int: 10
  Wis: 16 (12 pts from natural 6)
  Cha: 8 (2 pts from natural 6)

Domains: War, Law, Knowledge

Flaws: Vulnerable?, Poor Reflexes/Murky Eyed?

Feats:

  Lvl 1: Adamantine Body
  Flaw:  Extra Turning
  Flaw:  
  Dom:   Martial Weapon: Bastard Sword (DM said deity's favored weapon)
  Dom:   Weapon Focus: Bastard Sword
  Dom:   Knowledge Devotion (traded from domain)
  Dom:   Law Devotion (traded from domain)

Other: Assuming this is ran like previous games, the DM will likely start us each with a magic item of our choosing worth roughly 5,000 gp.  I know a +1 adamantine weapon was okay in a past game, and I'm thinking of picking that up for this character.  Do note, while this is a nice boost early on, for the most part permanent magical items will be very rare in this campaign, so I have to pick something good up front!  Consumables such as wands shouldn't be much of an issue.



So, how does that look so far?  It looks like the Travel domain won't work for the character as the DM is creating his own deities, but I'm happy enough with War if I can get away with Knowledge and Law.  I was thinking about Extra Turning because that would net me a total of six turn attempts a day with a Cha of 8, which gives me two additional uses of Law Devotion each day.  To me, that seems worth it.

What do you think I should do with that last feat?  I may use a metamagic feat, because the DM was toying with using one of the spontaneous metamagic options from Unearthed Arcana, although I haven't heard the final word on that.  I might take Power Attack at level 1 in case I decide to try and get Leap Attack and Shock Trooper later (although Leap Attack would be much later with Jump as a cross class skill).

Any good ideas on flaws to take?  I normally avoid Vulnerable, but with Adamantine Body and Law Devotion, -1 AC for a feat doesn't sound so bad.  My Reflex save will suck anyway, so I wonder if trashing it is really a bad idea.  Murky Eyed seems like a go-to for about any character.  I wanted to avoid Shaky on the off chance that the monk stays with the party.  If we end up with a Warlock instead, Shaky might be a better option.

Any other ideas?

[RobbyPants]

Damn... quoted myself instead of clicking modify.