Acane Hierophant or Fochlucan Lyrist? (quite lengthy)

[wotmaniac]

Here's the deal: though I've been DMing for over 10 years, I haven't really got very much play time, and I've never played a caster.  As such, I'm quite uncertain on what to do.
So, I'm looking for 2 things:
1) which seems like it would better fit the party?
2) need help fine-tuning my feat selection
^{_{(I think I may have posted something similar to this a while back; but that one was more theoretical, and, at that time, I had no actual context or game specifics -- this one is loaded with details)}}

So, here's the break-down (better grab a snickers):

general game stuff:
[spoiler]
- all WotC books allowed
 -- other sources (drag.mag., 3rd party, etc.) subject to approval on case-by-case basis (and even that, on a item-by-item basis)
- can only advance one PrC at a time (i.e., must fully complete advancement in one before I can move on to another)
- cannot use magic items to qualify as feat/PrC prereqs (i.e., must actually take the feat/class feature)
- magic items are very rare, and thus hard to come by (i.e., can't really count on getting anything specific; and little of it, at that)
- do to our geographic location, we are pretty much on our own (i.e., little-to-no logistical support)
- DM is a casualty to Stormwind -- frowns on CO, and all builds must be thematic/story driven (and subsequently approved), and the detailed background must also meet his scrutiny (this is only an issue if you're trying to do something he considers "exotic").
- the pantheon is very simple, clerics worship elements
- game is described as a "world-building campaign"; basically, the party is part of an exploration settlement on a newly-discovered uncivilized island; the goal of the settlement is to establish a self-sustaining colony that will generate resources/revenue for the mainland.  The "adventure" is in the adversarial nature of the island's inhabitants -- the party will basically be clearing the island of threats to the colony (and, of course, little do the settlers know, the island's "alpha-dog" is a BBEG red dragon). (though, he does encourage character-driven story advancement)[/spoiler]

party stuff:
[spoiler]
party consists of (all level 5):
- Cleric (of Air, IIRC; healbot/domain caster)
- Wizard (blaster)
- Fighter (generalist)
The party used to have a barbarian, but due to a temper-tantrum by that player a couple of weeks ago, he is no longer with the group.
AFAIK, they are all going to be pretty straight-forward.  none of the other players necessarily have anything against CO, but optimization is only a tertiary concern (following behind: story-driven character choices; thematic/story-appropriate character advancement) -- we all understand that CO is not mutually-exclusive to the other concerns; but noone really maps-out their character more than 2-3 levels ahead, with only a vague idea of anything beyond that.[/spoiler]

character stuff:
[spoiler]
My current character is a halfling rogue/warlock (going towards Arcane Trickster); but am looking to ditch him fairly soon.  Don't get me wrong -- I really like the character, and it really is a lot of fun; but the problem is that he doesn't really fit the story/campaign: I feel like he would be more appropriate for a kick-down-the-door type of game (this is based on the character's personality and preconceived ideas about the game).  Besides, with a blaster already in the party, and everything being based in the wilderness, he wasn't really as useful as he could have been in a different set of cicumstances.

So, I'm looking to bring in a druid/bard that is an island native, who will be basically acting as a guide (to make sure that they understand the nuances of the island and to keep them away from sacred/holy ground), and to use the settlers to help rid the island of the machinations of the BBEG.

I'm looking at 1 of 2 builds (both human):
1)  druid 3/bard 2/Green Whisperer 5/Arcane Hierophant 10
2)  rogue 2/druid 1/bard 2/GW 5/Fochlucan Lyrist 10
in both cases:
- ACFs/class variants: "savage bard", "wilderness rogue", bardic knack (with all classes that advance bardic knowledge stacking for this)
- 1st, 6th, and 9th level feats = able learner, obtain familiar, theurgic bond[/spoiler]

The class and feat selection to this point are pretty much set (this has been a severe work-in-progress; have been negotiating with my DM over this for a while).  Here are some of my considerations:
[spoiler]
- with a blaster and a healbot/air domain caster in the party, I pretty much want to focus on summoning and party buffing
- with the barbarian now gone, I figured that my AC could help fill that void.  While it does soak-up 2 feats, the obtain familiar/theurgic bond combo gives the biggest boost to my AC (by far)
- with my rogue leaving the party, we need a skill monkey (though, if I go FL, I could probably afford to drop able learner and pick up something else
- while taking the 2nd level in bard is sub-optimal, it's the only way I can get obtain familiar by 6th level, and thus theurgic bond by 9th (see AC consideration above)
- I only really want to support, without stepping on anyone's toes too much (cross-over - yes ; overshadow - no -- though, I may not be able to help it with the fighter; that'll teach him to generalize  ).  Basically, I want to be able to be the back-up to anybody in the party, should they go down (and have a few of my own tricks, as well).  This character concept was originally developed with the idea of a smaller party, but he should work well (and if he dies, then I got a factotum/chameleon concept on the back burner)[/spoiler]

Pros and Cons:
AH:
[spoiler]
Pros:
- wild shape
- familiar companion (i.e., highly intelligent)
- no ASF while in medium armor
- easy prereqs
- every level is a caster level (this is the biggie)
Cons:
- wild shape is delayed until 12th level
- weak skills/skill points
- only average BAB
- only one good save
[/spoiler]
FL
[spoiler]
Pros:
- full BAB
- 2 good saves
- evasion
- much better advancement in bardic music abilities and bardic knack
- more skills
Cons:
- no wild shape
- lesser animal companion
- no medium armor
- steep prereqs
- loss of 2 more caster levels
[/spoiler]

still with me?  good -- thanks.

So, now to my feat options that I've been looking at:
- melodic casting
- song of heart
- music of growth
- versatile performer
- chaos music (still subject to approval)
- companion spellbond
- quicken spell (to set-up for multispell and auto-quicken, just in case this goes epic); if I do take it, it won't be until level 18

feats that have already been denied:
- greenbond summoning (he thinks it's too broken -- he's not budging)
- focused performer/performance
- natural bond does not offset the level penalty; only closes the multiclass gap

being as we are rotating between 3 games at the moment, I will have at least a month before I have to put this in play (thus giving me plenty of time to prep my first foray in to real casting).

Again, if you made it all the way through that, then thank you; and I will greatly appreciate any feedback that you can provide.

[bearsarebrown]

Over the summer I played a FL. Then as the game started, I began to take AH levels.

I 100% regret the FL levels. If I could go back I'd drop them completely and go straight AH.

FL sounds good but it's too all over the place. Bardic Knowledge isn't too helpful and your music won't compare to anything your druid casting can do. And Familiar companion can get RIDICULOUS. At level 19 I had an elk that could put put 500 damage a round with an AC in the 50s.

[Nunkuruji]

For AH, I like the Totem Druid variant in Dragon Mag.

[ninjarabbit]

I like the AH build better: more focused and less of a pain in the ass.


Though I'd go bard4/druid3/AH3/sublimechord1/AH7/mystictheurge2, I guess it depends on your DM and hoe much you like green whisperer and bardic abilities

[Phaenix]

Unless there's some sort of houserule in place, Obtain Familiar is going to be a waste of a feat for the AH build. The AH must dismiss any familiar it has, and the companion familiar does not require having a familiar in the first place. If your DM allows you to use your total Arcane CL instead of "arcane spellcasting class level" with the feat, then it might be worth it, but I'm not too sure even then.

[juton]

FL gives what, full BAB and 2 extra skill points a level? It's just not worth it, you have to jump through too many hoops, and it doesn't even advance Wild Shape. I don't think the FL would net you 9th level spells anyways and you don't want your casting to lag behind the dedicated casters because then you feel weak and that sucks.

[DavidWL]

I agree with the others.  Fochlucan Lyrist, "It's a trap!".  I love the class, but I would never play one unless:
1)  There was very loose multiclassing in place
2)  We were starting at level 16+

In addition, the watered down bardic music (mediocre) is not worth delaying wildshape (awesome) and animal familiar (awesome) for 5 levels.

Bard 2/Druid 3/Arcane Heirophant 10/Green Whisperer 5
Feats:
H) Versatile Spellcaster
1) able learner
3) heighten spell
6) theurgic bond
9) natural spell

Note:  Uses Versatile spellcaster to cast a heightened 1st level spell = 2nd level spells = qualifies for Arcane Hierophant.

However, strictly speaking, this would be much better done with a Sorcerer or Wizard.
Sorcerer 1/Druid 4/Arcane Heirophant 10/Mystic Theurge 5
Feats:
H) Versatile Spellcaster
1) heighten spell
3) theurgic bond
6) natural spell

You get vastly better arcane casting (focus on utility instead of blasting), and have a better druid level for casting/wildshape/animal familiar.  Use spells to take the place of skillmonkey.  Take the spirit companion sub-level for sorcerer.

Best,
David

[Etarran]

Though FL is a wonderful class, making it work properly requires a lot of things that are only really possible in a game that allows dipping of prestige classes (Sublime chord, ur-priest, spelldancer, or divine oracle if your dm rules that that works). For your game, the arcane heirophant is much easier and will be much stronger in the end.

If you can't get greenbound summoning, can you get Rashemi Elemental Summoning? It fulfills the same purpose of having stronger summons, but at higher levels and with more versatility. Doomspeak (Champions of Ruin IIRC) would give you some extra utility for your bardic music uses which lose a lot of their lustre at higher levels, and is great for party support. Dragonfire Inspiration (Drac) and Words of Creation (Boed) will probably be disallowed by the DM, but if you can get them (Shouldn't be too difficult to flavour in line with the natural magic of the island), they can really give your party an enormous boost, especially in a low-magic environment. Past that, though, just getting as much druid casting as possible will make the support role very easy to fill.

[DavidWL]

Oh, and I forgot to mention ... in a low magic item environment, 2 great feats:
1)  Craft Wondrous Item!
2)  Ancestral Relic (pray for the item you want!)

Best,
David

[wotmaniac]

okay, first I want to thank everyone for the feedback thus far.

And scratch my previously posted build frames .... I just rediscovered "practiced spellcaster" (I don't know what I was thinking   ).  Also, I got the DM to finally approve greenbound summoning; however, it is being enforced as per its original intent
new chassis:
[spoiler]
1) druid 4/bard 1/GW 5/AH 10
2) rogue 2/druid 2/bard 1/GW 5/FL 10
Feats:
1 - practiced spellcaster (bard)
3 - obtain familiar
6 - theurgic bond
both builds now give me 9th level druid spells and 6th level bard spells and I still keep the animal companion maxed-out.

If I go AH, then I deed to take able learner and chaos music (unless you guys think that "inspire heroics" just isn't very good -- I like it a lot)
If I go FL, then I'm quite torn on my other 1st level feat (I'm thinking "melodic casting", but I'm still open to suggestion)
[/spoiler]

Yes, I'm spending 3 feats on getting a proper companion; but as a said before, I'm trying to fill the void left by losing the barbarian.
Given the make up of the party, here is how I set my priorities:
1) animal companion
2) bardic music
3) caster level
4) skills
5) everything else
(feel free to articulate how I may have mis-prioritized -- just keep party composition in mind, and the idea that I mainly want to facilitate and support) (also, is chaos music worth the feat?)

Oh, and another thing -- this DM likes to reward party diversity (i.e., if the whole party were wizards, then we'd spend a lot of time in anti-magic effects; if we all play rogues, then most of our encounters would be immune to sneak attack; etc.) -- he likes to take turns (on an encounter-by-encounter basis) choosing which character gets to be ineffective for that encounter, so that the rest of the party has to figure out how to compensate.

basically, I couldn't decide on whether to play a druid or a bard -- I really want to play both (and leadership is not an option).  And given how often I get to be a player, as opposed to DM (first long-term campaign in over 10 years), I figured I might not get another chance for a while -- so I decided to cram both bard and druid in to the same character (with some flavor variations, of course -- hence the "savage bard" option).

That being said, let me discuss my methodology:
[spoiler]
- with the rest of the party not being optimized, I didn't want to go optimization-crazy (never mind that the DM won't really let me)
- with 2 full casters in the party, I figured that maxed casting didn't need to be the highest priority;
- with the barbarian gone (and the fighter being anti-optimized), my AC did need to be maxed (hence theurgic bond)
- since my playing urges are all over the place, I wanted to be as eclectic as possible, while still staying rooted in the original concept (and yes, I am prepared to sacrifice depth for breadth).
Now for the "math" that I looked at:
          FL           AH
BAB     15           13
fort     12           13
ref      11            5
will      16           17
skills   151          125       (and INT will be a quartary stat, so I probably won't be getting any bonus points)
feats    FL gets 2 extra feats to play with at 1st lvl, since it won't need able learner or chaos music

music   16(20)     6(10)   (#'s in parenthesis are with "chaos music" -- still waiting for approval)          
level      

caster  17/16        19/16
level  
[/spoiler]
so, by my "math", I concluded that:
(6 reflex)+(26 skill points)+(2 feats)+(10 levels of bardic music uses and abilities)+(2 bab) > (2 caster lvls)+(1 fort)+(1 will)+(belated wild shape)

Now to address individual concerns:

Note:  Uses Versatile spellcaster to cast a heightened 1st level spell = 2nd level spells = qualifies for Arcane Hierophant.

DM has ruled this to not work, as you don't actually "know" any 2nd level spells until 4th level (which is articulated in the feat description) -- and I concur.

Unless there's some sort of houserule in place, Obtain Familiar is going to be a waste of a feat for the AH build. The AH must dismiss any familiar it has, and the companion familiar does not require having a familiar in the first place. If your DM allows you to use your total Arcane CL instead of "arcane spellcasting class level" with the feat, then it might be worth it, but I'm not too sure even then.

Well, the feat description explicitly states that all caster levels stack -- this will allow my GW levels to advance my familliar (and thus my animal companion, via theurgic bond) -- ergo, the only real benefit that I gain from AH (as far as the AC is concerned) is that the companion gets a boost to INT

I like the AH build better: more focused and less of a pain in the ass.

Though I'd go bard4/druid3/AH3/sublimechord1/AH7/mystictheurge2, I guess it depends on your DM and hoe much you like green whisperer and bardic abilities

but multiple PrCs isn't?  besides, this is a no-go; as I can only have 1 open PrC at a time.
and even if I could, bard 2/druid 3/GW 2/AH 2/SC 1/AH 8/MT 1 would be strictly better

Over the summer I played a FL. Then as the game started, I began to take AH levels.

I 100% regret the FL levels. If I could go back I'd drop them completely and go straight AH.

FL sounds good but it's too all over the place. Bardic Knowledge isn't too helpful and your music won't compare to anything your druid casting can do. And Familiar companion can get RIDICULOUS. At level 19 I had an elk that could put put 500 damage a round with an AC in the 50s.

- bardic knowledge is being replaced by bardic knack
- I'll already have a maxed-out AC, thanks to theurgic bond.  
also, my music will also boost my summoned creatures -- even if I take greenbound summoning, thanks to "green ear" (which GW gets for free at 5th level).


If I seem like I'm trying to be a contrarian -- I promise, I'm not.  Before I make a final decision, I've just gotta make sure that I've fully and properly tested all avenues; so any perceived push-back that you may see is just me testing the theory.

thanks a bunch -- and keep it coming
_{(and just to reiterate -- I'll probably be starting at around 6th level)}

[Phaenix]

Unless there's some sort of houserule in place, Obtain Familiar is going to be a waste of a feat for the AH build. The AH must dismiss any familiar it has, and the companion familiar does not require having a familiar in the first place. If your DM allows you to use your total Arcane CL instead of "arcane spellcasting class level" with the feat, then it might be worth it, but I'm not too sure even then.

Well, the feat description explicitly states that all caster levels stack -- this will allow my GW levels to advance my familliar (and thus my animal companion, via theurgic bond) -- ergo, the only real benefit that I gain from AH (as far as the AC is concerned) is that the companion gets a boost to INT

Hmmm... The Companion Familiar description states that "you add your arcane heirophant class level to your arcane spellcasting class level" to determine the CF's familiar abilities. My reading says Bard 1 + GW 5 + AH 10 gets you to 16.

Obtain Familiar says "for purposes of determining familiar abilities ... your levels in all classes that allow you to cast arcane spells stack." That is also Bard 1 + GW 5 + AH 10 = 16.

Unless you're getting arcane casting from Druid, or your DM rules that Green Whisperer isn't an "arcane spellcasting class," I'm not seeing how that feat is doing you any good.

[wotmaniac]

Unless there's some sort of houserule in place, Obtain Familiar is going to be a waste of a feat for the AH build. The AH must dismiss any familiar it has, and the companion familiar does not require having a familiar in the first place. If your DM allows you to use your total Arcane CL instead of "arcane spellcasting class level" with the feat, then it might be worth it, but I'm not too sure even then.

Well, the feat description explicitly states that all caster levels stack -- this will allow my GW levels to advance my familliar (and thus my animal companion, via theurgic bond) -- ergo, the only real benefit that I gain from AH (as far as the AC is concerned) is that the companion gets a boost to INT

Hmmm... The Companion Familiar description states that "you add your arcane heirophant class level to your arcane spellcasting class level" to determine the CF's familiar abilities. My reading says Bard 1 + GW 5 + AH 10 gets you to 16.

Obtain Familiar says "for purposes of determining familiar abilities ... your levels in all classes that allow you to cast arcane spells stack." That is also Bard 1 + GW 5 + AH 10 = 16.

Unless you're getting arcane casting from Druid, or your DM rules that Green Whisperer isn't an "arcane spellcasting class," I'm not seeing how that feat is doing you any good.

good call -- but here's the rub:
the DM has ruled that that whole paragraph (the one talking about familiar abilities) does not apply unless you (previously) have the ability to gain a familiar (I know that there is nothing there about that, but I do understand where he's coming from).
But even if that were not the case, I'd be stuck with a 4th-lvl druid's AC all the way until I hit 11th level (ouch!).  Also, check this out:
- no obtain familiar (@20th lvl): familiar companion = 14th lvl AC abilities + 0 familiar abilities (by my DM)
- with obtain familiar (or without as per RAW): familiar companion = 14th lvl AC abilities + 16th lvl familiar abilities
- obtain familiar + theurgic bond (one time): 20th lvl AC abilities + 16th lvl familiar abilities (and if I go the FL route, I still get a 20th-level AC!)
As it pertains to Practiced spellcaster:
- not taking it, I get theurgic bond at either 12th lvl, or at 9th lvl if I sacrifice a druid level for a bard level;
- if I take it, I can have theurgic bond at 6th level, without sacrificing any druid casting
I also must keep in mind that this character is going to be starting at level 5 or 6 -- requiring a much different approach than if I were starting at a higher level. (and the DM doesn't allow retraining)

so, given that, is there something else that I might be missing?   (that's a real question, not a rhetorical one )