Author Topic: Help me min/max a first level grappler  (Read 6944 times)

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HCL

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Help me min/max a first level grappler
« on: December 17, 2009, 11:36:55 PM »
2 flaws and 2 traits allowed, all WoTC material with a couple exceptions most notably Dragon mag, BoVD, BoED, BoEF for obvious cheesons. I can take an LA +1 race but I would have to use a racial class and take my point of LA at second level (probably not a good option)

I think improved grapple is a no brainer since I don't want to provoke an aoo, and I am going to want IUS or the Unnapproachable East berserker lodge feat that substitutes for it if I go barbarian/avenger druid. I want the 10+ health from Shape Soulmeld: Rageclaws. Here is what I am thinking of for race

-Lesser Duergar for good con/saves and Enlarge person as SLA, disadvantage is less speed compared to human in light armor (though better with med/heavy) and I have to use a standard action to enlarge
-Lesser Aasimar or Buomman, possibly with Dragonborn template, +2 wis may be useful
-Azurin, extra feat and essentia point
-Synad, if it is a psychic warrior I could use the racial to quicken Expansion, or just get psionic tattoos of it and go to town
-Darfellan, more strength and extra iterative = extra grapple attempt
-Orc: lots of strength
-Warforged, natural attacks like Darfellan, lots of immunities but I would have to invest a feat or be low in armor

And for classes
-Barbarian (Most likely with Ferocity variant rage), gets speed, medium armor prof, and big strenth bonus from raging
-Totemist with Rageclaws and Girallon arms: Gets some armor proficiency, big health pool and grapple bonus
-Druid is a possibility, possibly with Avenger Variant, not sure exactly what advantages I could get from this
-Monk... gets IUS and Improved Grapple as bonus feats... but poor BAB, HP and AC
-Cleric- poor hitpoints but can get travel devotion or celerity domain for lots of speed, strength domain to enlarge self, and a choice between armor and knowledge devotion + skillpoints, but MAD
-Psychic Warrior or fighter for extra feat, PW can use expansion if I invest in 14+ wisdom

JaronK

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Re: Help me min/max a first level grappler
« Reply #1 on: December 18, 2009, 12:18:11 AM »
For sheer grappling power with 1 LA, nothing beats a Half Minotaur Water Orc.  Large size, tons of strength... what more do you need?

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PhaedrusXY

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Re: Help me min/max a first level grappler
« Reply #2 on: December 18, 2009, 12:34:43 AM »
For sheer grappling power with 1 LA, nothing beats a Half Minotaur Water Orc.  Large size, tons of strength... what more do you need?

JaronK
How about a dragonborn half-minotaur water orc?  :p
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

Operation Shoestring

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Re: Help me min/max a first level grappler
« Reply #3 on: December 18, 2009, 12:44:46 AM »
What, no lolth touched or Mineral warrior?

JaronK

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Re: Help me min/max a first level grappler
« Reply #4 on: December 18, 2009, 12:49:14 AM »
Dragonborn would remove some of the fun Half Minotaur abilities, but yeah, you could do it.  And no, Lolth Touched and Mineral Warrior aren't as good as Half Minotaur for this purpose, and we only have one LA to work with here.

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TheEndIsNear

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Re: Help me min/max a first level grappler
« Reply #5 on: December 18, 2009, 12:52:29 AM »
Mineral warrior isn't as great as y'all say there are better things, my top 5 are:
Half minotaur
Half ogre
Feral
Lolth touched
Goliath (race)

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HCL

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Re: Help me min/max a first level grappler
« Reply #6 on: December 18, 2009, 12:57:51 AM »
No templates other than dragonborn if that was not clear

Glutton

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Re: Help me min/max a first level grappler
« Reply #7 on: December 18, 2009, 04:08:33 AM »
is this purely a first level exorcise or did you want to have a character that could grow into something (and I don't mean with enlarge person)?

Runestar

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Re: Help me min/max a first level grappler
« Reply #8 on: December 18, 2009, 05:55:45 AM »
Bear sub from complete champion lets you swap out fast movement for improved grab (but this also means no pounce). However, I am unsure if the limitation that IG works only on foes up to 1 size smaller than yourself applies here or not (which would limit your barb to small foes or smaller).  :(
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HCL

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Re: Help me min/max a first level grappler
« Reply #9 on: December 18, 2009, 11:28:51 AM »
is this purely a first level exorcise or did you want to have a character that could grow into something (and I don't mean with enlarge person)?

its mainly an excercise, but I may end up running the character.

archangel.arcanis

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Re: Help me min/max a first level grappler
« Reply #10 on: December 18, 2009, 11:46:41 AM »
I seem to recall a wizard grappler build.
Octopus or Squid Familiar from i think Stormreach gave a +3 bonus.
Enlarge person was of frequent use.

I only vaguely remember it but the guy showed how he could consistently beat the grapple of most CR appropriate monsters until lvl 7 where you get polymorph and win D&D. It was on the old Wizards boards so the thread is probably dead now.
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RobbyPants

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Re: Help me min/max a first level grappler
« Reply #11 on: December 18, 2009, 11:55:18 AM »
I seem to recall a wizard grappler build.
Octopus or Squid Familiar from i think Stormreach gave a +3 bonus.
Enlarge person was of frequent use.
Yep.  I remember Frank describing it in great detail at TGD.  Here's the link to the entire thread and here's the relevant text:


Quote from: FrankTrollman
So as we all know, Monks suck. In part of my ongoing negative assessment of Monks, I'm going to produce a number of other characters that serve the purpose of a "Monk" without suffering from the painful reckoning of actually having any monk levels. Cause man, that would really suck!

So here it is: A grapple based wizard character. Not what you'd expect from a grapple build, but there you go.

Level 1: You are a human and have a single level of Wizard, and you get to select your feats and specialize and all that. You put your highest rolled stat in Intelligence because you aren't a moron, and your second highest goes into Strength. Rar! You take an Octopus as your familiar (It's Wet Outside), and you select Improved Unarmed Strike and Improved grapple as your feats. You specialize in Transmutation, and take Evocation and Enchantment as barred schools.

Combat: You grapple people! Having Improved Grapple means that you can initiate a grab without provoking an AoO. Assuming that you have a Strength of 14, you'll have a Grapple bonus of +9 at 1st level, which means that you expect to win. You're also going to cast babau slime on yourself, which means that you'll do 1d8 points of acid damage every round you stay in a grapple, which in turn is enough to make you totally lethal. You can take down enemies above your level no problem.

2nd level: Holy shiznit! You got a BAB bonus! Sweet. You now have Grapple onus of +10. But then you can have a spell left over for enlarge person that can jack your grapple bonus up to +16

3rd level: Now things go crazy. You learn fearsome grapple and bladeweave. You get a feat, and it's Aberration Blood. Your Grapple Bonus goes up to +12 and then you cast fearsome grapple, enlarge person,  and bladeweave - driving your Grapple bonus up to +22 (comparison: this is better than a Giant Octopus at +15). Further, your victim has to make a Will save every round or be dazed - which means that they can't even attempt to break out. This is where you pin your opponent and the Rogue uses a coup de grace.

4th level: You get a BAB hot diggity! You now have +23 Grapple when it's important (the equal of a Dire Bear, for those keeping track). You also learn some new spells I suggest Balor Nimbus and web

5th level: You get a bonus Metamagic Feat. I suggest either Sudden Extend, or Extend Spell. You also get 3rd level spells. You're probably going to get haste as well as something good like stinking cloud.

6th level: You get a Feat, which will probably be Sudden Maximize. Also you get a +1 to BAB so your grapple bonus just shot past that of a Dire Bear. Also you get some more spells which are Shivering Touch (so once per day you can hand out 18 points of Dex damage as a touch attack in case you come across a Dragon or Purple Worm that can actually beat you in a grapple), and then either shrink item (for all around utility), or girallon's blessing (for ripping peoples' faces right off).

7th level: You may take a prestige class. Or not. I don't even care, because you just got polymorph and the cheese stands alone. Apply all your grapple bullshit as a Remorrhaz, or whatever. I don't even care at this point.

-Frank 

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Steve: You underestimate my power!
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[/spoiler]

Havok4

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Re: Help me min/max a first level grappler
« Reply #12 on: December 18, 2009, 02:48:41 PM »
The major problem I can see with that build is the d4 hit die issues. The wizard is very strong and can grapple amazingly well but it fragile. That build reminds me of the facehugger from alien for some reason.

RobbyPants

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Re: Help me min/max a first level grappler
« Reply #13 on: December 18, 2009, 03:01:48 PM »
It certainly is fragile.  In a 1v1 fight, it might work well because the opponent will likely be unable to act.  When against many opponents, you'll have to rely on spells or other party members for help.

Of course, this is a wizard we're talking about, so, as he gains levels and it is harder to grapple effectively, he also gains a crap ton of spell slots.
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

JaronK

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Re: Help me min/max a first level grappler
« Reply #14 on: December 18, 2009, 08:39:56 PM »
Yeah, that build is just to demonstrate that the monk class is really weak and that a Tier 1 class can do it better, but at the end of the day that's not a grappling build, it's just a Tier 1 class deciding to grapple right now.  I'm sure anyone playing it would first Glitterdust/Cloudkill/whatever to take out the battlefield, and then go grapple one person just for giggles.

For an actual dedicated grappler, Barbarian, Psychic Warrior, and Totemist are probably the best bets.  Druid would work but it has the same problem as the Wizard... it's just a guy who can grapple awesomely but can also do anything else awesomely too.  Though with Druid you could always just trick out your pet to be a grappler and you could focus on other things.

JaronK

ninjarabbit

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Re: Help me min/max a first level grappler
« Reply #15 on: December 18, 2009, 09:23:05 PM »
A cleric with the strength domain works too but like wizard and druid it does everything well

HCL

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Re: Help me min/max a first level grappler
« Reply #16 on: December 18, 2009, 09:49:01 PM »
Question: Can you use Alter self to both change into another race AND grow a size category?

Runestar

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Re: Help me min/max a first level grappler
« Reply #17 on: December 18, 2009, 11:22:13 PM »
A grappling wizard...

Just when I thought I had seen everything... :o
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JaronK

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Re: Help me min/max a first level grappler
« Reply #18 on: December 19, 2009, 12:03:02 AM »
Well, the Tier 1s really can do anything.  I made a great non casting Wizard for a level 1 arena competition, and no one could beat it (except other people using the same trick).

JaronK

DerWille

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Re: Help me min/max a first level grappler
« Reply #19 on: December 19, 2009, 01:36:06 AM »
Dude, I love the grappling Wizard. That is like the perfect solution to the boring, "I pull out my crossbow and plink" problem that plagues wizards from levels 1 to 2. I wanna try this.

 If you want more of a traditional grappler, I'd go with the Totemist and try to get as much as I could into Garillion arms. I believe it's a +2 to grapple for just having them and then another +2 for every point of essentia put into it. I remember seeing another soul meld that helps with strength checks, but I can't remember it off the top of my head. I also can't remember if the soul melds still work if you turn into a bear with bear warrior.