New to Optimalization looking for some feedback and guidance

[Thistledown Thurbertaut]

You are forgetting we are using Savage Species with the LA here and that my DM is likely giving me 1 HD per racial class level.  You are also forgetting the Pixies +2 Ref and Will Saves.

Feats: Dodge, Weapon Finesse [racial]
Level 1 Feat: Magic in the Blood
Level 3 Feat: Darkstalker
Fighter Bonus Feat: Flyby Attack (perhaps not strict fighter but applies to a pixie and prob can be negotiated)
2nd Fighter Bonus Feat: Mobility
Level 6 Feat: Improved Flyby
Level 9 Feat: Shadow Blade
Level 12: Daring Outlaw
Level 15: Two Weapon Fighting
Level 18: Great Flyby Attack

Now admittedly this is an odd area, since we are using a sort of combo between Savage Species and LA Buyoff with the DM giving me 1 HD per racial class level and still starting me off at ECL 5.

If I have to I can swap the Fighter Feat out for TWF, and taking Flyby at 6 and Improved Flyby at 15.
Other than those negotiable areas what do you think?

[Thistledown Thurbertaut]

aaaaand here's number 2!!!

Mordekai DevilsbaneBackground:Build Notes:DFA 18/Warblade2

[cru]

You are forgetting we are using Savage Species with the LA here and that my DM is likely giving me 1 HD per racial class level.  You are also forgetting the Pixies +2 Ref and Will Saves.

RAW: A pixie character exchanges its 1 HD of fey for its first class level. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/sprite.htm#pixie)
I.e., a pixie without class levels has 1 fey HD and 4 LA. A pixie fighter 1 has 1 fighter HD and 4 LA.

If you're getting a fey HD for each point of LA, you're starting as fey 4, fighter 1. Here's what fey HD gives you: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#feyType

[Thistledown Thurbertaut]

I get what the RAW is but my DM was concerned about survivability and said he would likely just give me a hD per fey level.  Also the bonus of using the savage species progression is that it doens't upn the level adjustment for OID...just needs a min Cha of 20 and you can freely make Sleep and Memory Loss arrows as if you had all the prereqs.

Do you like the build?  More importantly, assuming it is legal for the game given the DMs house rule, does it look effective/optimized?

[Thistledown Thurbertaut]

*nudge*

[Thistledown Thurbertaut]

Perhaps it would help if I asked more specific questions.

Part of the problem is I don;t know what is considered "good" regarding things like damage potential, BAB, saves and the like.

So looking at my Pixie first, how does he stack up?  Also, for that one level I have lfet what are the best single level dips?  Was it a mistake to dip cleric for the luck and freedom of movement? I know at that level the spells are trivial (although I once read an article about how even low level spells and abilities can always be useful in the hands of the creative...it isn't always about rawn god-power...)

Secondregrdinf the pixie, I can see the DM going one of two ways...He either starts me off at level 5 (fighter 1+LA 4) OR we use the 5 level Pixie class and he starts me off at level 2 or 3.

If we go with the latter then I end up getting only 9 cumulative levels in swashbuckler/rogue and I still need a good one level dip (or would it be better to take a 3rd level in swordsage?)  What would be the best choice to snag another level of SA, since with only 9 Daring Outlaw levels and SS 2 I net +6d6...?  Would the sudden strike ability of the Nona/Avenging Executioner stack for Sneak Attack?

If we go for the former LA option then I end up with Daring Outlaw 11 which is 7d6 SA and I can use the cleric as the last dip...or is their another better idea?

Lastly I think the DFA looks pretty good...but in the low levels I will have to be content with really low damage.  If the DM decides to start a new game  (instead of the 3rd level one he is currently running) I may go with this choice since an LA of 1 is trivial compared with starting of at Level 5 unless we go with Savage Species...

Thoughts?

[Thistledown Thurbertaut]

Did I inadvertantly offend everyone? 

[Thistledown Thurbertaut]

Assuming I did not somehoe offend everyone and that you guys come back and post, I have another relevant question...how important are max skill ranks and specifically how important is it to max out UMD?

See if my DFA build I assumed only the base number of skills, being 4 points per level and that is probably not going to change.  Given that the DM uses a roll system for attributes and I am taking a -2 penalty hit to Int, I probably won't have any bonus skill points to work with after putting my top rolls into Con, Cha, Wisdom and Dex. 

If it isn't as necessary then maybe I could drop some ranks out of UMD to put more into Bluff and Diplmacy since I am aiming to pull double duty as the party's demonic "face"  Also considering taking some flaws for more low level invocations....

[DavidWL]

Hi,

No, you haven't offended people ... it is just a lot to read and it can often take people at least a day to reply.  Still, asking specific questions helps.  I haven't read the whole thread, but a few comments:
1)  UMD > Diplomacy or Bluff
2)  Dragonfire Adept + Entangling Exhalation is pretty awesome, and will keep you effective.
3)  If flaws are allowed, definitely take them.

I'd offer more advice, but these types of builds aren't my specialty (I'm more of a multi-threat caster sort of guy).

Best,
David

[Thistledown Thurbertaut]

Hey Thanks.

Here's another easy one...I have heard it said several places that Dispel Magic loses its effectiveness as you progress in levels.  Why is this?

[DavidWL]

Because dispel magic is capped at +10.  As you get to be higher levels, the DC increases, but your dispel check does not.  A 20th level caster casting dispel magic rolls D20 + 10.  A 20th level spell has a DC of 31.  You can never dispel it with dispel magic.

Best,
David

[Thistledown Thurbertaut]

So I have a DFA with the Voracious Dispelling Invocation and the guide says to swap it out for something else when it becomes less useful...around what level should I consider the swap?

[cru]

There's not much left to discuss. The builds are OK, the second one is probably even legal (although possibly somewhat MAD).

@voracious dispelling: Why don't you actually play the build and then, when you start feeling that it becomes less effective, you swap it? How 'bout that?

[Thistledown Thurbertaut]

What does MAD stand for?

Things still worth discussing:  What would be a good 1-3 level dip for the Sneak-Buckler?

[DerWille]

MAD = Multiple Attribute Dependency (Needing lots of different stats for your different functions. Monks are this. Druids are not)

[Prime32]

Perhaps it would help if I asked more specific questions.

Part of the problem is I don;t know what is considered "good" regarding things like damage potential, BAB, saves and the like.

You might want to take a look at Optimisation by the Numbers.

[Shadowhunter]

Thistledown, perhaps I among other spoiled your first impression of the boards, normally we don't post and critique at the pace we've done here

Let's see here then:

Pixie
[spoiler]First of, two-weapon fighting and Flyby Attack don't really mesh. Full-round attacks aren't compatible with flybys, and the only time TWF kicks in is during the former. Greater Flyby isn't that impressive either, since it's a straight line.

Dipping cleric has never been a bad thing in general, at least as long as you pick your domains carefully. Luck and Freedom is good choices.

Dipping another level in Swordsage is also an idea, or even two (kicking cleric and exemplar) for Dancing Mongoose and Tiger Claw Maneuver X to qualify.

However, there is no denying that a single dip into cleric is better than the 3rd level of swordsage, especially considering the spell list you gain and the help it provides for UMD purposes.
 [/spoiler]

DFA
[spoiler]The DFA build is very detailed, though we don't need a level-by-level progression most of the time.
You've listed Frightful Presence at two different levels, as an invocation and as a extra invocation through feat.
Pick it once and then go to Drow of the Underdark and get yourself Imperious Command. Trust me, that will be awesome

I don't see the reason why you should multi-class a DFA with warblade really.
Sure, you net some HP and some maneuvers, but you loose out on Force Breath and a d6 of damage (and immunities, how much difference those makes...).

You take Wall of Blades, but any serious melee monster (not necessarily a monster per se, might as well be a normal halfling for all purposes) WILL have a better attack bonus than you. Remember, DFA have wizard BAB; your BAB is 11.

Iron Heart Surge is a good maneuver though, I'll grant you that. But it's also available through Martial Study or as an Item (the book talks about this around the section about White Raven Crown).

Action Before Thought is the Ref substitute?
Ref tends to be the least important save, just a thing to keep in mind.

Sure, you do get some nice stuff, but Force Breath will really, really help when you're up against that thing with immunity to both cold and fire. Or just helpful in general, killing of incoporeal stuff, ignoring most effects etc.

I'm more inclined to go straight DFA, especially if you can get the item version of the better maneuvers.[/spoiler]

[Thistledown Thurbertaut]

Yeah I guess you did spoil me!

Ok, the TWF and flyby aren't meant to mesh together.  He has the option of going nuts on a single opponent or strafing a line of several, and as far as I know he could do a SA on either since he is going to be invisible while he does it.  His UMD is pretty much through the roof.  I will probably drop at least exemplar.  Would the sudden strike ability of the Avenging Executioner stack and give me an extra SA die?  Trying to find a way to optimize there since a 1 level dip in cleric at level 20 doesn;t seem the sanest choice.

Regarding the DFA, I pretty much cut and pasted from the worksheet I used to figure things out.  However there are some errors in the pixie build because the LA buyoff confused me...he should have an extra level of progression in there.  One of those Frightful Presences is the feat from the Draconmicon and it stacks with the invocation.  The reason for the Warblade dip is simple...optimizing for the fivefold breath of Tiamat.  In order to take Iron Heart Endurance, I need two other Iron HEart Maneuvers as prereq, Iron Surge seemed like the best choice and it has a prereq of 1 maneuver and again Wall of Blades seemed the best choice out of the ones available to me.

With the 5FBoT losing a D6 doesn't matter *too* much (net loss of 5d6 out of a total 45ds), and the immunities may be helpful but I optimized for 5FBoT.  Losing Force Breath doesn't hurt either since I will be using Draughts or Wands of MEtabreath magic to gain abilities like Ethereal Breath.

I used this very handy DFA guide and it has some amazing builds, advice and tactics...very comprehensive...

http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19870954/The_New_Dragonfire_Adept_Handbook


And that by the numbers thread was very confusing for a relative noob.

Thistledown, perhaps I among other spoiled your first impression of the boards, normally we don't post and critique at the pace we've done here

Let's see here then:

Pixie
[spoiler]First of, two-weapon fighting and Flyby Attack don't really mesh. Full-round attacks aren't compatible with flybys, and the only time TWF kicks in is during the former. Greater Flyby isn't that impressive either, since it's a straight line.

Dipping cleric has never been a bad thing in general, at least as long as you pick your domains carefully. Luck and Freedom is good choices.

Dipping another level in Swordsage is also an idea, or even two (kicking cleric and exemplar) for Dancing Mongoose and Tiger Claw Maneuver X to qualify.

However, there is no denying that a single dip into cleric is better than the 3rd level of swordsage, especially considering the spell list you gain and the help it provides for UMD purposes.
 [/spoiler]

DFA
[spoiler]The DFA build is very detailed, though we don't need a level-by-level progression most of the time.
You've listed Frightful Presence at two different levels, as an invocation and as a extra invocation through feat.
Pick it once and then go to Drow of the Underdark and get yourself Imperious Command. Trust me, that will be awesome

I don't see the reason why you should multi-class a DFA with warblade really.
Sure, you net some HP and some maneuvers, but you loose out on Force Breath and a d6 of damage (and immunities, how much difference those makes...).

You take Wall of Blades, but any serious melee monster (not necessarily a monster per se, might as well be a normal halfling for all purposes) WILL have a better attack bonus than you. Remember, DFA have wizard BAB; your BAB is 11.

Iron Heart Surge is a good maneuver though, I'll grant you that. But it's also available through Martial Study or as an Item (the book talks about this around the section about White Raven Crown).

Action Before Thought is the Ref substitute?
Ref tends to be the least important save, just a thing to keep in mind.

Sure, you do get some nice stuff, but Force Breath will really, really help when you're up against that thing with immunity to both cold and fire. Or just helpful in general, killing of incoporeal stuff, ignoring most effects etc.

I'm more inclined to go straight DFA, especially if you can get the item version of the better maneuvers.[/spoiler]

[Thistledown Thurbertaut]

Oh yeah, and I took the Diamond Mind Technique because it allows a concentration check for Reflex saves.  I get the it is the least important save in the game and with one level was just thinking to bolster a weak spot since it is the weakest save for DFAs.