Author Topic: Agita's trying out his first Binder. Help!  (Read 4025 times)

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Agita

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Agita's trying out his first Binder. Help!
« on: December 13, 2009, 08:17:46 PM »
As the title says, I'm trying to make a 10th-level Binder. I'm not sure whether I'll actually play him or her, as I'm very torn on whether I should be joining new games right now, but I want to build one anyway, if only as an exercise. For now, we'll assume no flaws or other variants. I'd like to do one point buy with 38 points (for the specific campaign I'm looking at), and one for 32 points (general-purpose). Now, while I've given the Handbook a read, it still seems complicated (perhaps actually more so than before reading it :lol), so that's where the community comes in.
My very first question would be, is Binder 20 focusing on versatility viable, or is it better to focus on one role? The former appeals more to me, personally, and seems to be the route that the one Binder I've seen in action (Kuroi's in a game I DM) is taking. Also, since it will probably be used for an application-based PbP game, I don't really know beforehand how the party will look.

As far as the point buy is concerned, a good general-purpose one seems to be (assuming Human as a good default race), with 32, 14/14/14/12/8/16. With a 38, we can neatly make that 16 Cha an 18. Would the six extra points be better invested elsewhere, say, making Con a 16 and Int a 14?

On to feats. Improved Binding is, naturally, mandatory. I don't need a handbook to see that. With that, we can have fun with Zceryll, Chupoclops, and other funny friends from beyond the traditional world order of the planes at level 10. Expel Vestige and Ignore Special Requirements seem pretty nifty too. However, both of these are bonus feats, should they be relegated to levels 11 and 18 in favor of taking other feats? Is it better to take general-purpose feats, specialize in one role and pick feats accordingly, or take feats appropiate to different roles?

Of course, equipment also needs to be chosen. For this campaign, assume 8th level WBL for now, though there is the expectation of looting dragon hoards. Vestige Phylactery looks as nifty as it is expensive, though it is just that, expensive.

Finally, of course, there is the matter of Vestiges to bind. Naturally, the individual vestiges should be tailored to whatever I want to do that day, but I'll have two vestiges to choose from the entire list of 6th-level and lower vestiges. That's a lot, so it would be nice to have a quicklist handy. Chupoclops plus something that grants me more attacks (Ipos?) if the party needs a charging damage dealer, Chupoclops+Paimon for a more mobile one, Savnok+Dahlver-Nar for a tank, Naberius+??? for a face, Paimon+Otiax for AoOs, Zceryll+Haures for a secondary BC caster?
« Last Edit: December 13, 2009, 08:38:33 PM by Agita »
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Shadowhunter

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Re: Agita's trying out his first Binder. Help!
« Reply #1 on: December 13, 2009, 09:34:25 PM »
Quote
My very first question would be, is Binder 20 focusing on versatility viable, or is it better to focus on one role?

I'd say go for versatility, especially if you're not going to take KotSS.
Binders seem to have a lot of options if one knows how to tweak them, might aswell take advantage of it.
Speaking of KotSS, it's a great PrC, but I'm not one of the ones that thinks taking it is mandatory.
Only really good reason is if you find any "fiver" ability that you want to use more often, or that your final BAB score will be 16 (epic for one thing).

Quote
As far as the point buy is concerned, a good general-purpose one seems to be (assuming Human as a good default race), with 32, 14/14/14/12/8/16. With a 38, we can neatly make that 16 Cha an 18. Would the six extra points be better invested elsewhere, say, making Con a 16 and Int a 14?

Definitly Con/Int raise.
Cha 18 is only better if you have a specific goal in mind that will include Save DC's.
Going for versatility, more HP and skills are preferable.

As far as Feats go, I'd pick a few good general ones, much as the handbook suggests.
Improved Initative is good on any character, Power Attack is good on any melee one etc.

If you eventually find out what you'll be doing, then a few more specialized feats are in order, like [X Archery-Feat] or [Y Charging-Feat], or perhaps [Z Badass-Feat].
Specialization is only good if you have a clear goal in mind, otherwise constructing towards versatility is better.
Options are, as we all know, a good thing.

I've never played a Binder, but Ignore Special Requirements seems pretty useful.
Not only can you bind vestiges that hate eachother, but you won't have to be in the Abyss for contacting Astaroth (Disclaimer: I know there's one vestige that can only be contacted on the "X"th level Somewhere. I don't know if it's Astaroth, nor if it's the Abyss. But there is someone.) nor do you have to have a body of water near to bind whoever requires that.

Given the choice of Expel Vestige and Ignore Special Requirements, I'd go for the former sooner.
You might be able to wait for ISR for you're 11th level bonus feat, but I'd take it into consideration sooner.
Then you can take Expel Vestige at 11th and you're pretty much set for all Binder-needed feats.

As far as equipment goes, Veil of Allure (Sandstorm/MiC) is really good, Circlet of Persuasion will help you a lot and you already mentioned the expensive Phylactery.
Otherwise, there's the good 'ol standard gear in +1 Something Weapons, +saves items, belt of battle, +1 Warning Eager gauntlet, extradimensional storage utilities, scrolls, potions, wands, caltrops, rope, marbles, lard, 11+ foot poles etc.


Picking Vestiges:
I'd say that you write down a quick summary of the different abilities the vestiges have on pieces of paper, then mix them up and draw two at random. Ponder what you could do with those two, write anything that seems good down and repeat.
That's how I figure out new card-combos in CCG's and it should work here.
The vestige-combo section of the handbook helps, I'd advice you to take second look through it.
Formating sucks, but the advice is still valid ;)
[Spoiler]
Quote from: Runestar
the most effective optimization is the one you can actually get away with.  :smirk

Quote from: Vinom
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I often have to remind people not to underrate divination.  The ability to effectively metagame without actually metagaming beats the ability to set things on fire more times than not.
[/quote]
[/spoiler]

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Re: Agita's trying out his first Binder. Help!
« Reply #2 on: December 13, 2009, 09:38:10 PM »
If you are going human, I recommend Knowledge Devotion and some Scion of Dantalion levels, its generally better than pure binder if you don't mind using Dantalion in one of your spots :)

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Re: Agita's trying out his first Binder. Help!
« Reply #3 on: December 14, 2009, 01:01:22 AM »
I made my first binder today as well. He is a human Binder 6/ Knight of the Sacred Seal 2. His patron is Buer (the other party member is a wizard or sorcerer, I haven't seen her yet, she is my fiancee's character), and the other vestige is Amon for the ram horns lol. I have Imp. Initiative, Expel Vestige, Rapid Pact Making, Weapon Focus (longsword) and Improved Binding:) The KOTSS is an awesome prc, you may want to look into it.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2009, 01:06:44 AM by johnboy069 »
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Agita

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Re: Agita's trying out his first Binder. Help!
« Reply #4 on: December 14, 2009, 02:48:46 PM »
Quote
As far as the point buy is concerned, a good general-purpose one seems to be (assuming Human as a good default race), with 32, 14/14/14/12/8/16. With a 38, we can neatly make that 16 Cha an 18. Would the six extra points be better invested elsewhere, say, making Con a 16 and Int a 14?
Definitly Con/Int raise.
Cha 18 is only better if you have a specific goal in mind that will include Save DC's.
Going for versatility, more HP and skills are preferable.
Indeed, I think the extra durability and skills might be better. With a 16 Con and average hp/HD, I've got 78 hp at 10, 93 if all three pact augments go into hp (like, say, if I find myself in the tank role). That's comparable to those of a d10 or d12 class with similar Con. Also, having played around with skills, 2+Int does hurt if the class isn't Int based.

As far as Feats go, I'd pick a few good general ones, much as the handbook suggests.
Improved Initative is good on any character, Power Attack is good on any melee one etc.

If you eventually find out what you'll be doing, then a few more specialized feats are in order, like [X Archery-Feat] or [Y Charging-Feat], or perhaps [Z Badass-Feat].
Specialization is only good if you have a clear goal in mind, otherwise constructing towards versatility is better.
Options are, as we all know, a good thing.
Right now, I've got a general-purpose set of Improved Binding (1), Improved Initiative (Human), Power Attack (3), [Expel Vestige or ISR] (Bonus), and two free ones. If the DM lets me, I'll probably fill those in once the party makeup is more or less fixed.

I've never played a Binder, but Ignore Special Requirements seems pretty useful.
Not only can you bind vestiges that hate eachother, but you won't have to be in the Abyss for contacting Astaroth (Disclaimer: I know there's one vestige that can only be contacted on the "X"th level Somewhere. I don't know if it's Astaroth, nor if it's the Abyss. But there is someone.) nor do you have to have a body of water near to bind whoever requires that.
It's Ahazu, a 3rd-level vestige. His seal must be drawn in a ridiculously specific location on the 73rd layer of the Abyss. Sure, I could ask the wizard to planeshift me there and go on a little adventure to get my vestiges bound every other day before breakfast, but I'm not exactly a morning person, so scribbling "Ignore Special Requirements" on a sheet of paper seems easier.
Ahazu is pretty damn H4XX to make up for it, though he might be considered setting-specific, as he's from Savage tide IIRC.
So yeah, still undecided on Expel/Ignore.

Given the choice of Expel Vestige and Ignore Special Requirements, I'd go for the former sooner.
You might be able to wait for ISR for you're 11th level bonus feat, but I'd take it into consideration sooner.
Then you can take Expel Vestige at 11th and you're pretty much set for all Binder-needed feats.
??? Contradiction here.

As far as equipment goes, Veil of Allure (Sandstorm/MiC) is really good, Circlet of Persuasion will help you a lot and you already mentioned the expensive Phylactery.
Otherwise, there's the good 'ol standard gear in +1 Something Weapons, +saves items, belt of battle, +1 Warning Eager gauntlet, extradimensional storage utilities, scrolls, potions, wands, caltrops, rope, marbles, lard, 11+ foot poles etc.
Given that wbl has been limited to 8th level, I'll probably only be able to afford one of phylactery/veil, if that. Cheap utility, mundane or magical, is a consideration for after I'm down to hundreds of gp. Circlet of Persuasion is a must (in fact, after Circlet and synergy bonuses, I don't think I even need any more to be an effective diplomancer, even without Naberius and Triad bound. With them... yeah.


Picking Vestiges:
I'd say that you write down a quick summary of the different abilities the vestiges have on pieces of paper, then mix them up and draw two at random. Ponder what you could do with those two, write anything that seems good down and repeat.
That's how I figure out new card-combos in CCG's and it should work here.
The vestige-combo section of the handbook helps, I'd advice you to take second look through it.
Formating sucks, but the advice is still valid ;)
That's an interesting suggestion, hadn't even thought of that.
And yes, I'm currently looking through the combos section over and over.

If you are going human, I recommend Knowledge Devotion and some Scion of Dantalion levels, its generally better than pure binder if you don't mind using Dantalion in one of your spots :)
Yeah, Knowledge Devotion and Dantalion did come to mind. I hadn't considered pairing it with Scion, though, as the only ability that goes with that seems to be the reroll. But yeah, if one were to use Dantalion often for KD purposes, there's really not much to lose by going Scion. KD is plenty good on its own though, I think.
Speaking of Dantalion's +8, is there a way for Binders to treat all knowledge skills as trained? I know of Naberius, which works for 3 skills with 16 Con; with feats there's Jack of All Trades and Breadth of Knowledge; and then there'd be the DFA dip, which I'm trying to avoid. Unfortunately, KD specifically says 'at least one rank', rather than 'trained, though.

I made my first binder today as well. He is a human Binder 6/ Knight of the Sacred Seal 2. His patron is Buer (the other party member is a wizard or sorcerer, I haven't seen her yet, she is my fiancee's character), and the other vestige is Amon for the ram horns lol. I have Imp. Initiative, Expel Vestige, Rapid Pact Making, Weapon Focus (longsword) and Improved Binding:) The KOTSS is an awesome prc, you may want to look into it.
It is pretty cool, but I'm not sure it's what I want. I don't want to specialize too much on my first try with a Binder, but if enough people tell me to PrC out, I suppose I'll succumb to peer pressure.
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zavule

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Re: Agita's trying out his first Binder. Help!
« Reply #5 on: December 14, 2009, 04:56:44 PM »
Do you have access to all the fancy dragon magazine and online supplement vestiges?  Its an important question because it makes you a LOT more versatile if you do.  I'm playing a binder in a game and I use them all the time.
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Re: Agita's trying out his first Binder. Help!
« Reply #6 on: December 14, 2009, 05:16:58 PM »
Given the choice of Expel Vestige and Ignore Special Requirements, I'd go for the former sooner.
You might be able to wait for ISR for you're 11th level bonus feat, but I'd take it into consideration sooner.
Then you can take Expel Vestige at 11th and you're pretty much set for all Binder-needed feats.
??? Contradiction here.

Ah, easy to misstake.

What I meant was that you should take ISR in one of your normal feat slots, wait for Expel at 11th and pick Improved Binding at 1st. Then you have everything you need by lvl 11 and won't have to wait until...what, like 17th level?
17th until you have what's required: not a solid idea.

The general purpose you've taken seems solid, I'd go with ISR and then just see what you'll be needing.
[Spoiler]
Quote from: Runestar
the most effective optimization is the one you can actually get away with.  :smirk

Quote from: Vinom
(A group of nerds are called a murder because like crows we are anti-social, like shiny things, and often squack at each other over nothing for hours)

I often have to remind people not to underrate divination.  The ability to effectively metagame without actually metagaming beats the ability to set things on fire more times than not.
[/quote]
[/spoiler]

Binder? You're Welcome

Zceryll makes Binders go from tier 3 to tier 2.
Cagemarrow is a Genius

Before giving the advice that build X would be better of with Fist of the Forest, take a long, good look at Primal Living. Twice.

Agita

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Re: Agita's trying out his first Binder. Help!
« Reply #7 on: December 15, 2009, 11:18:13 AM »
Yes, I asked and Dragon is okay. I also asked about Dungeon and online; he only said "Dragon" but didn't specifically deny any of the others I mentioned. Hmm.
I was warned against hunting down stuff that I personally feel is unbalanced just for the sake of min/maxing, but I didn't plan to do that anyway. This was issued to everyone interested, though, so it's not specific to me.

Stuff I noticed last night: Andras+Paimon=50 ft.-long Dance of Death with a 15-20 crit chance on everything.
Andras+Chupoclops=Obvious.
Otiax+Tenebrous=Touch attacks that deal cold damage for red dragons. It's no Shivering Touch, of course.
Naberius+Astaroth (the Dragon one)=Pretend to be a regular customer at the local magic mart. Buy stuff on credit. Walk away quickly.

Looking at special requirements, most of them except for vestiges that hate each other are easily to automatically fulfilled (skill reqs are easy, as is speking Giant. Savnok and Marchosias can be satisfied with some backstory.) - only Shax and Ahazu have location-based requirements (the latter's is especially silly). I can see the Triad causing problems if the DM says that having bound with Tenebrous in the past counts as association with the plane of shadow. Getting soil from a grave for Chupoclops shouldn't be hard. (When in doubt, bury an enemy I've killed and then take the soil from his grave with me in a jug or something. Or, y'know, use his dead body. Nothing says bodies can't be reused.) On the other hand, Expel Vestige seems really useful.
It's really just a question of what I take at 4th and what at 11th.
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zavule

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Re: Agita's trying out his first Binder. Help!
« Reply #8 on: December 15, 2009, 05:03:01 PM »
Actually, Zceryll is who I was asking after.  http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070718

She's pretty much made of awesome.  Summon monster 1/5 rounds.  Telepathy.  Free template.  Other stuff too, but...  The summon monster gets you lots of fancy monsters with spell like abilities eventually.  Or an angry screaming death monster.  Your choice.
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DM: Yes.
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Re: Agita's trying out his first Binder. Help!
« Reply #9 on: December 15, 2009, 05:07:32 PM »
Actually, Zceryll is who I was asking after.  http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070718

She's pretty much made of awesome.  Summon monster 1/5 rounds.  Telepathy.  Free template.  Other stuff too, but...  The summon monster gets you lots of fancy monsters with spell like abilities eventually.  Or an angry screaming death monster.  Your choice.
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Re: Agita's trying out his first Binder. Help!
« Reply #10 on: December 17, 2009, 01:51:01 AM »
Actually, Zceryll is who I was asking after.  http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070718

She's pretty much made of awesome.  Summon monster 1/5 rounds.  Telepathy.  Free template.  Other stuff too, but...  The summon monster gets you lots of fancy monsters with spell like abilities eventually.  Or an angry screaming death monster.  Your choice.
That's right. She also goes well with Abysm. You can qualify for some of the awesome feats that let you combine psionics and magic from Dragon by just binding those two vestiges. I stuck a post in the Binder handbook on it.
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Re: Agita's trying out his first Binder. Help!
« Reply #11 on: December 21, 2009, 07:52:31 PM »
Update: DM's allowing one flaw and one trait. With that, I could take both ISR and Expel Vestige. What would be a good flaw to choose? Vulnerable and Murky-Eyed are always prime picks for me, anything else?

Also, restating a question that's gone unanswered so far in both the simple question thread and the handbook:
Quote
- Haures's Major Image does NOT require concentration to maintain: the effect is as the spell, but it automatically lasts Binder level rounds.
What's the reasoning behind this? Looking at Haures's Major Image, I don't see any clause that would override MI's duration.
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Re: Agita's trying out his first Binder. Help!
« Reply #12 on: December 21, 2009, 10:18:50 PM »
Update: DM's allowing one flaw and one trait. With that, I could take both ISR and Expel Vestige. What would be a good flaw to choose? Vulnerable and Murky-Eyed are always prime picks for me, anything else?

Also, restating a question that's gone unanswered so far in both the simple question thread and the handbook:
Quote
- Haures's Major Image does NOT require concentration to maintain: the effect is as the spell, but it automatically lasts Binder level rounds.
What's the reasoning behind this? Looking at Haures's Major Image, I don't see any clause that would override MI's duration.

ToM page 19 states "The use of a vestige-granted power does not require a Concentration check unless its description specifies otherwise." Maybe that's the reasoning?

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Re: Agita's trying out his first Binder. Help!
« Reply #13 on: December 21, 2009, 10:26:43 PM »
people keep referring back to web enhancement vestiges. I've looked at the wizards archives and not seen a Tome of Magic enhancement. Are the vestiges spread around in the enhancements of other books? If so, could you tell me which ones? I'm working on a binder build myself right now and it would be a great help.

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Re: Agita's trying out his first Binder. Help!
« Reply #14 on: December 21, 2009, 10:36:41 PM »
people keep referring back to web enhancement vestiges. I've looked at the wizards archives and not seen a Tome of Magic enhancement. Are the vestiges spread around in the enhancements of other books? If so, could you tell me which ones? I'm working on a binder build myself right now and it would be a great help.

I happen to have a couple tabs open:

Arete, Abysm, and Triad
Astaroth & Desharis
Zceryll

See also the Consolidated Binder Handbook

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Re: Agita's trying out his first Binder. Help!
« Reply #15 on: December 21, 2009, 10:57:26 PM »
And here's Vanus
I am constantly amazed by how many DM's ban Tomb of Battle.  The book doesn't even exist!

Quotes:[spoiler]
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Re: Agita's trying out his first Binder. Help!
« Reply #16 on: December 22, 2009, 10:22:49 AM »
Update: DM's allowing one flaw and one trait. With that, I could take both ISR and Expel Vestige. What would be a good flaw to choose? Vulnerable and Murky-Eyed are always prime picks for me, anything else?

Also, restating a question that's gone unanswered so far in both the simple question thread and the handbook:
Quote
- Haures's Major Image does NOT require concentration to maintain: the effect is as the spell, but it automatically lasts Binder level rounds.
What's the reasoning behind this? Looking at Haures's Major Image, I don't see any clause that would override MI's duration.

ToM page 19 states "The use of a vestige-granted power does not require a Concentration check unless its description specifies otherwise." Maybe that's the reasoning?
I don't think that would apply, as it refers to "Concentration checks", as in skill checks.
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Re: Agita's trying out his first Binder. Help!
« Reply #17 on: December 22, 2009, 03:49:38 PM »
As far as I can tell you do need to concentrate on the image but you cannot be interrupted.

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Re: Agita's trying out his first Binder. Help!
« Reply #18 on: March 02, 2010, 09:33:37 AM »
Ignore Special Requirements is practically mandatory, Agita.

Not only does it allow you to ignore the notes about certain Vestige combinations not meshing (like Amon and Chupoclops, just to give you an example), it also allows you to circunvent a DM's prime 'Fuck you' to a Binder - namely "you can't bind that shit right now!".

Expel Vestige is nice, but a Vestige Phylactery works better. Why? The Phylactery has no chance of failure, unlike Expel Vestige. The -10 penalty is awful hefty too, and the item actually lets you switch out vestiges in combat (action-economy wise). At higher levels, you can own multiple phylacteries.  :D
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Re: Agita's trying out his first Binder. Help!
« Reply #19 on: March 02, 2010, 10:34:12 AM »
Well, Vestige Philactery was too expensive to start with, and now it's too late anyway. :P I can still take the damn thing as a bonus feat at 11th; until then, I trust my planning skills to see me through. I made a point of buying several sheets of parchment in case there were no surfaces to write on and note a clay jug filled with grave soil on my sheet.
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