Author Topic: Will this actually work?  (Read 2151 times)

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fun_at_funerals

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Will this actually work?
« on: December 12, 2009, 12:05:27 PM »
Not sure if this has been considered before. Thought to bring it up in case it actually does work.

I'm well aware of the traditional Wiz/Mindbender/Ur-Priest/M. Theurge build but I always though that it kinda sucked that Mystic Theurge doesn't really offer any class features that allow for greater synergy between the two spellcasting classes. Ultimate Magus on the other hand is really great for the synergizing options it provides and I was wondering if it were possible to apply its spellcasting progression to the Ur-Priest. Hence the following:

Wizard 5/Mindbender 1/Ur-Priest 1/Ultimate Magus 10/Mystic Theurge 3
ECL 1 (3: 1 Base, 1 Flaw) Iron Will, Spell Focus: Evil
ECL 3 (1) Extend Spell
ECL 5 - Spontaneous Divination
ECL 6 (1) Alternative Spell Source

Basically, use the Wizard's Spontaneous Divination ACF to singularly fulfill all the requirements of Ultimate Magus. Alternative Spell Source kinda, but not really, turns the Ur-Priest into an alternate arcane spell casting class since it is functionally capable of casting arcane spells now, so UM spellcasting advancement can be applied to it. In the end, we get dual 9's and some great spellcasting options.

Does this work or does it simply abuse the rules way too much?
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CantripN

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Re: Will this actually work?
« Reply #1 on: December 12, 2009, 12:23:57 PM »
Up to your DM, as usual. RAW, no, not really, for the same reason that Wizard isn't a Spontaneous Spellcaster, even with S. Divination. While you can qualify with Wizard, you only get the Prepared Levels for Wizard, and Ur-Priest isn't really an Arcane Caster, even if it can cast Arcane Spells.
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fun_at_funerals

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Re: Will this actually work?
« Reply #2 on: December 12, 2009, 02:07:23 PM »
Damn. Thought it might considering all the Sword of the Arcane Order shenanigans going about recently. 

I guess Wiz 6 (Spontaneous Divination)/Mindbender 1/Ur-Priest 1/Prestige Paladin 1 (Sword of the Arcane Order)/Ultimate Magus is equally out of the question as well.
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CantripN

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Re: Will this actually work?
« Reply #3 on: December 12, 2009, 02:23:48 PM »
Quite, yes. Being able to cast Arcane Spells doesn't make your class an Arcane Spellcaster.
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Negative Zero

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Re: Will this actually work?
« Reply #4 on: December 12, 2009, 03:01:36 PM »
What about using Exalted Arcanist? Or the Dragonsblood Pool?

bearsarebrown

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Re: Will this actually work?
« Reply #5 on: December 12, 2009, 03:36:53 PM »
Quite, yes. Being able to cast Arcane Spells doesn't make your class an Arcane Spellcaster.

I think it's dishonest to call this RAW. By all means, I may be wrong, but it doesn't actually say that anywhere. So all we can do is interpret, and honestly, ability to cast arcane spells is a logical way to define arcane spellcaster.

But, as I said, I may be wrong. I'd love to see any sources you have to back it up.

CantripN

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Re: Will this actually work?
« Reply #6 on: December 12, 2009, 03:47:01 PM »
Well, as I said, it really is up to your DM. That's part of the reason he exists.
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SorO_Lost

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Re: Will this actually work?
« Reply #7 on: December 12, 2009, 05:09:10 PM »
Quite, yes. Being able to cast Arcane Spells doesn't make your class an Arcane Spellcaster.

I think it's dishonest to call this RAW. By all means, I may be wrong, but it doesn't actually say that anywhere. So all we can do is interpret, and honestly, ability to cast arcane spells is a logical way to define arcane spellcaster.

But, as I said, I may be wrong. I'd love to see any sources you have to back it up.
And in the same token of logic.
You have 5th level X spell casting abilities (X = 5).
You found a way to treat X as Y type casting when preparing or casting them (Y = X).
You take 4 levels in a PrC that advances Y casting (Y + 4).

What is your level in X?
A. 9, because 5+(Y=X) is how I stack it. The +4 divine spell casting boosts my arcane spell casting when I prepare my arcane spells as divine spells.
B. 5, becuase (Y+5) = X. No matter what you do to the divine side, your divine spells are still directly based off your arcane spells.

B makes the title of arcane or divine spell caster worth nothing unless the class abilities in the PrC are worth giving up your desired spell casting for.

Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]

bearsarebrown

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Re: Will this actually work?
« Reply #8 on: December 12, 2009, 05:12:43 PM »
And in the same token of logic.
You have 5th level X spell casting abilities (X = 5).
You found a way to treat X as Y type casting when preparing or casting them (Y = X).
You take 4 levels in a PrC that advances Y casting (Y + 4).

What is your level in X?
A. 9, because 5+(Y=X) is how I stack it. The +4 divine spell casting boosts my arcane spell casting when I prepare my arcane spells as divine spells.
B. 5, becuase (Y+5) = X. No matter what you do to the divine side, your divine spells are still directly based off your arcane spells.

B makes the title of arcane or divine spell caster worth nothing unless the class abilities in the PrC are worth giving up your desired spell casting for.

Assuming I understand what you're trying to say, I agree with you. It's not a clear rule and both rulings seem to have unintended consequences.