Author Topic: Versitile Spellcaster (RoDr) !!!??  (Read 6105 times)

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MyndBulletz

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Re: Versitile Spellcaster (RoDr) !!!??
« Reply #20 on: December 10, 2009, 02:16:56 AM »
Ahh.It appears that we are reading the feat differently. I am proposing that VS provides the ability to cast the spell of a higher level without providing a higher level slot.
Having read and reread the text, I am inclined to agree. You have to have access to the slot, i.e. be able to cast spells of that level, to use the ability.
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Re: Versitile Spellcaster (RoDr) !!!??
« Reply #21 on: December 10, 2009, 05:45:32 AM »
The argument goes:

If I have heighten and versatile spellcaster, and am a beguiler (for example, beguiler 1)
1)  Versatile spellcaster will let me cast a spell 1 level more
2)  I can then heighten any of my 1st level spells
3)  Per the text of heighten, this is a 2nd level spell in all ways.
4)  I am now able to cast 2nd level spells.
5)  Per the text of beguiler, I know all the spells on my list, once I have access to a certain level of spell (I've seen people argue against this last one).
6)  I can now cast any 2nd level beguiler spell.  I still need to use versatile caster to get the spell slot.

Best,
David
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The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Versitile Spellcaster (RoDr) !!!??
« Reply #22 on: December 10, 2009, 06:29:40 AM »
Yeah, I posted about it during the summer some time. How it works is that every spell has a minimum caster level.

Says who?

 The PHB, page 172 under Caster Level.
Varies from class to class and character to character.  What's the minimum caster level to cast lesser restoration?  Or irresistible dance?
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Re: Versitile Spellcaster (RoDr) !!!??
« Reply #23 on: December 10, 2009, 10:20:52 AM »
so, despite the dm throwing books at you.

if your a flawed and precocious but versatile beguiler.. (at this point your also probably a kobald or an illuminarian)

 do you versitilly cast 2x 1st's to gain a second, to pair w/ your precocious 2nd, and get a third?

Actually I'll be playing a bastardized Dark Template Drow I gave up a lot of Drow stuff and some of the Template stuff but end up with the nice stat boosts, Hide in plain site, and only +1 LA.

Anyways, DM looked at the feat and I got a "that's nice" sort of response but on thinking about it I better clarify if we are reading it the same way.  That is, even without other feats I can cash in 2 1st level spells for a 2nd.
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DerWille

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Re: Versitile Spellcaster (RoDr) !!!??
« Reply #24 on: December 10, 2009, 01:35:24 PM »
Yeah, I posted about it during the summer some time. How it works is that every spell has a minimum caster level.

Says who?

 The PHB, page 172 under Caster Level.
Varies from class to class and character to character.  What's the minimum caster level to cast lesser restoration?  Or irresistible dance?

 Depends on base class. For Lesser Restoration it's caster level 3 for a Cleric, and probably 4 for a Favored Soul, but I'd need to look at the class. In order to determine the minimum caster level first find what level the spell is (Level 2 for Clerics) then see when that base class would naturally learn level 2 spells. For a cleric, a caster level of 3 is needed at minimum.

 So, instead of each spell having a definite minimum level built into, each spell has a relative minimum depending on who is casting the spell.

genERRORic

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Re: Versitile Spellcaster (RoDr) !!!??
« Reply #25 on: December 10, 2009, 03:19:06 PM »
so, despite the dm throwing books at you.

if your a flawed and precocious but versatile beguiler.. (at this point your also probably a kobald or an illuminarian)

 do you versitilly cast 2x 1st's to gain a second, to pair w/ your precocious 2nd, and get a third?

Actually I'll be playing a bastardized Dark Template Drow I gave up a lot of Drow stuff and some of the Template stuff but end up with the nice stat boosts, Hide in plain site, and only +1 LA.

Anyways, DM looked at the feat and I got a "that's nice" sort of response but on thinking about it I better clarify if we are reading it the same way.  That is, even without other feats I can cash in 2 1st level spells for a 2nd.

Only if you can already cast 2nd level spells. Otherwise you don't actually know any.

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Re: Versitile Spellcaster (RoDr) !!!??
« Reply #26 on: December 10, 2009, 03:24:26 PM »
so, despite the dm throwing books at you.

if your a flawed and precocious but versatile beguiler.. (at this point your also probably a kobald or an illuminarian)

 do you versitilly cast 2x 1st's to gain a second, to pair w/ your precocious 2nd, and get a third?

Actually I'll be playing a bastardized Dark Template Drow I gave up a lot of Drow stuff and some of the Template stuff but end up with the nice stat boosts, Hide in plain site, and only +1 LA.

Anyways, DM looked at the feat and I got a "that's nice" sort of response but on thinking about it I better clarify if we are reading it the same way.  That is, even without other feats I can cash in 2 1st level spells for a 2nd.

Only if you can already cast 2nd level spells. Otherwise you don't actually know any.

This is going from memory, but while I think you can cash in 2 1st level slots to cast a 2nd level spell, I don't think you can cast 3rd level spells because you don't actually have any 2nd level slots.  Your second level spells are cast from 1st level slots, and you never gain 2nd level slots.

Someone please confirm, as this is from memory.

Best,
David
Some Cool Quotes:  [spoiler]
Quote from: unknown
Non-PC activities like out of combat healing should be left to wands and NPCs. It's not fun to play a walking wand of CLW. Likewise, being a combat wall is not a viable PC role. A Wall of Force could do that.

-Sort of, but you left out the important note that a Wall of Force does it better.

Quote from: Runestar / skydragonknight
The most powerful character is the one that you actually get to play.

Quote from: Operation Shoestring
I often have to remind people not to underrate divination.  The ability to effectively metagame without actually metagaming beats the ability to set things on fire more times than not.
[/spoiler]
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The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Versitile Spellcaster (RoDr) !!!??
« Reply #27 on: December 10, 2009, 03:54:12 PM »
so, despite the dm throwing books at you.

if your a flawed and precocious but versatile beguiler.. (at this point your also probably a kobald or an illuminarian)

 do you versitilly cast 2x 1st's to gain a second, to pair w/ your precocious 2nd, and get a third?

Actually I'll be playing a bastardized Dark Template Drow I gave up a lot of Drow stuff and some of the Template stuff but end up with the nice stat boosts, Hide in plain site, and only +1 LA.

Anyways, DM looked at the feat and I got a "that's nice" sort of response but on thinking about it I better clarify if we are reading it the same way.  That is, even without other feats I can cash in 2 1st level spells for a 2nd.

Only if you can already cast 2nd level spells. Otherwise you don't actually know any.

This is going from memory, but while I think you can cash in 2 1st level slots to cast a 2nd level spell, I don't think you can cast 3rd level spells because you don't actually have any 2nd level slots.  Your second level spells are cast from 1st level slots, and you never gain 2nd level slots.

Someone please confirm, as this is from memory.

Best,
David
You're correct.  You can't "pyramid" versatile spellcaster slots.  

Yeah, I posted about it during the summer some time. How it works is that every spell has a minimum caster level.

Says who?

 The PHB, page 172 under Caster Level.
Varies from class to class and character to character.  What's the minimum caster level to cast lesser restoration?  Or irresistible dance?

 Depends on base class. For Lesser Restoration it's caster level 3 for a Cleric, and probably 4 for a Favored Soul, but I'd need to look at the class. In order to determine the minimum caster level first find what level the spell is (Level 2 for Clerics) then see when that base class would naturally learn level 2 spells. For a cleric, a caster level of 3 is needed at minimum.

 So, instead of each spell having a definite minimum level built into, each spell has a relative minimum depending on who is casting the spell.
It also varies from character to character of the same class  (archivist, clerics with domains, et cetera).  A beguiler using versatile spellcaster + heighten spellcaster has a lower minimum CL for casting his second level spells than an equivalent wizard, or a beguiler without the combination.

IIRC, that section is about reducing the power level fo the spell anyway, so it doesn't come up if you're just casting it.
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Re: Versitile Spellcaster (RoDr) !!!??
« Reply #28 on: December 10, 2009, 04:44:36 PM »
So a second level Krau-sigil illuminian beguiler would be able to use versatile spellcaster to cast a 2nd level spell?

Does versatile spellcaster let you do that more than once?

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Re: Versitile Spellcaster (RoDr) !!!??
« Reply #29 on: December 10, 2009, 07:24:22 PM »
So a second level Krau-sigil illuminian beguiler would be able to use versatile spellcaster to cast a 2nd level spell?

Does versatile spellcaster let you do that more than once?

I'ld say so. And yes, you can use versatile spellcaster as many times as you wish.

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Re: Versitile Spellcaster (RoDr) !!!??
« Reply #30 on: December 10, 2009, 07:37:11 PM »
So a second level Krau-sigil illuminian beguiler would be able to use versatile spellcaster to cast a 2nd level spell?

Does versatile spellcaster let you do that more than once?
The Krau sigil benefit is capped at your total character level. It is useless for single-classed casters.
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Re: Versitile Spellcaster (RoDr) !!!??
« Reply #31 on: December 10, 2009, 08:18:19 PM »
So a second level Krau-sigil illuminian beguiler would be able to use versatile spellcaster to cast a 2nd level spell?

Does versatile spellcaster let you do that more than once?
The Krau sigil benefit is capped at your total character level. It is useless for single-classed casters.

I believe OpShoe was referring to the the improved sigil(krau) feat, which gives a free level of heighten.

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Re: Versitile Spellcaster (RoDr) !!!??
« Reply #32 on: December 10, 2009, 11:04:11 PM »
On this topic, does a Human Warmage 1 / Rainbow Servant 1 with Versatile Spellcaster / Earth Sense / Earth Spell / Heighten Spell have 2nd/3rd level spells all day long?

I know the combination of feats allows for early entry, but what's the exact breakdown of the mechanics.

I just want to know if the character I am playing right now is only able to cast 1st-level spells and cantrips, or not.

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Re: Versitile Spellcaster (RoDr) !!!??
« Reply #33 on: December 10, 2009, 11:36:06 PM »
On this topic, does a Human Warmage 1 / Rainbow Servant 1 with Versatile Spellcaster / Earth Sense / Earth Spell / Heighten Spell have 2nd/3rd level spells all day long?

I know the combination of feats allows for early entry, but what's the exact breakdown of the mechanics.

I just want to know if the character I am playing right now is only able to cast 1st-level spells and cantrips, or not.

When touching the ground, you can cast a heightened first level spell using two first level slots, which thanks to Earth Spell is a third level spell.  This means you are capable of casting second and third level spells, which qualifies you for RS.

Now, as soon as you're capable of casting second level spells (heightened magic missle, let's say), your warmage brain goes "WOAH!  I CAN SEE ETERNITY", and the knowledge of second level spells embedded during basic warmage training flows into you, and they're now your spells known.

You can sacrifice two first level spell slots and cast a single second level spell that you know.  Since you now know second level spells, pick one.
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Re: Versitile Spellcaster (RoDr) !!!??
« Reply #34 on: December 12, 2009, 12:37:27 AM »
Yeah, I posted about it during the summer some time. How it works is that every spell has a minimum caster level.

Says who?

 The PHB, page 172 under Caster Level.
Varies from class to class and character to character.  What's the minimum caster level to cast lesser restoration?  Or irresistible dance?

 Depends on base class. For Lesser Restoration it's caster level 3 for a Cleric, and probably 4 for a Favored Soul, but I'd need to look at the class. In order to determine the minimum caster level first find what level the spell is (Level 2 for Clerics) then see when that base class would naturally learn level 2 spells. For a cleric, a caster level of 3 is needed at minimum.

 So, instead of each spell having a definite minimum level built into, each spell has a relative minimum depending on who is casting the spell.
It also varies from character to character of the same class  (archivist, clerics with domains, et cetera).  A beguiler using versatile spellcaster + heighten spellcaster has a lower minimum CL for casting his second level spells than an equivalent wizard, or a beguiler without the combination.

IIRC, that section is about reducing the power level fo the spell anyway, so it doesn't come up if you're just casting it.
[/quote]

 I've never said it was a good system, but you're right, it does vary. Spells are not an absolute system, but a relative system. I'm not familiar with archivists, but for the Beguiler I'm assuming you're talking about doing this, please correct if I'm wrong:

 You use versatile spellcaster + heighten spell to be able to cast 2nd level spells while you are below level 4. Let's assume for some reason they can at level 1 just for simplicity. He does this trick and sees eternity to gain knowledge of 2nd level spells. So far so good. However, the minimum CL does not change to 1 for those 2nd level spells. They still require CL 4 because that is when a Beguiler would naturally learn them. All that Versatile Spellcaster + Heighten spell is doing for him is giving knowledge of those second level spells.

 That same argument would say that because a Wizard is able to write down a spell into his spell book that the minimum CL for that spell has changed. It has not.

 Remember that all spells require CL, Slot, and Knowledge. This doesn't change for Clerics with domains.

 Domains are different, but follow the same principals. The big one is that that require special slot, a domain slot. If they were a gun, they require a super awesome barrel because domains are super awesome. Let's say there's the Awesome Domain that lets a Cleric cast Mass Lesser Vigor at level 1 with a domain slot. For that individual domain, the minimum CL is 1. Normally Mass Lesser Vigor is a level 3 spell, so it requires a minimum 5 for the CL. So to cast Mass Lessor Vigor as a domain spell, it's CL 1. To cast normally, it's CL 5.

 Do I believe this system is really stupid? Yes. Very stupid. Will getting spells before your level be banned or get a book thrown at you? Yes. But this is the only consistent way that spells work across all classes.

 An extension of what I'm saying is that whenever a caster levels up they receive the following things. A caster level, a spell slot (if applicable), and knowledge of the spell in some way. The system knows whether or not to grant you a different level of spell based on the CL relative to your caster level. Each class maintains a seperate list with a seperate minimum requirement for each and every spell. So let's say we have the jack of all trades, but really sucks at everything caster of Wizard 5/Sorcerer 5/Cleric 5/Druid 5

This character has 5 different spell lists. Wizard, Sorcerer, Cleric, Druid, and Domain. Each list uses their own seperate spell slots. And to cast a spell from a class, each class must have a minimum spell level. In other words, each list is independent of each other. A Wizard spell cannot be put in a Sorcerer spell slot unless the Sorcerer list also has knowledge of that spell. A Cleric cannot put a domain spell in a Druid spell slot. A Sorcerer Glitterdust needs a minimum CL 4 while the Wizard one needs a CL 3. Even if they're from the same character. Each list is independent.

 Sorry if my explanation or writing got a little confusing.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2009, 12:40:11 AM by DerWille »