Author Topic: Beating the Wild Hunt (MMV) at Level 12 with practical optimization - possible?  (Read 5782 times)

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Brainpiercing

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Yesterday our DM wanted to show us how pissed he is with the CR15 monsters he had been pulling against us. We had a sort-of mechanism to just request an encounter on the spot, a card we have to play, and we did it twice in order to get a level up, and got two CR15 one-rounders, which did basically no damage against us. So we chose to do it a third time (because we could still no level), and he wanted to annoy us, I guess, so he pulled out the Wild Hunt. He later said it was just a pseudo-encounter, and rolled back to before the encounter, but whatever. We got the Master and two Hounds. They have ACs in the 40s, DR, and a manageable number of HP, as well as SR, which was unbeatable for our casters in that situation.

Well, we each got ready-actions off initially, but they didn't do much. Then I got one good charge in on the Master, which did about a 180 damage (before DR), and punted him into a hound and tripped him. (I was asked not to get a valorous weapon, hence the low damage.) The hounds were pretty bad, however, they quite easily spring-attacked me and the DMPC and really chewed us up - even with one attack, 70+damage. We were, as usually, tired, so I forgot that the master should not have been able to hit me due to being out of reach and prone, well, whatever, the DM said he stays prone and just beats us, and basically killed my character and put another character near death. We stopped playing at that point, and rolled back.

My DM seems to think that the group is too strong. I don't think that's the case. The reason for his problems is that he wants to take monsters out of the books, ideally single monsters, and give us interesting encounters like that. I keep telling him that won't work, but he says he just doesn't have any more time. But that's just an aside.

Now, I am interested, what kind of group of Lvl 12 Chars (ideally a diverse group) can beat the Wild Hunt without losing more than one or two PCs, with just the master and two hounds, and as they were presented to us? There were five of us, so I guess there should be five again. Any WoTC material is allowed, but it should be strictly practical optimization, i.e. no infinite loops, no wish farming, etc. For the sake of identical conditions, no valorous weapon multipouncers, either, because I was asked not to do that. (I.e. no Hood, unfortunately.) Normal pouncing without multipliers is fine.

Our group, who didn't make it, were:
DMPC: A Stalwart Battlesorc/AbCha gish
An illusionist with basically ZERO defensive capabilities, but good DCs on his spells
A Hellfire Warlock
A WoC Bard/SubChord with a nice +10 IC
And my no-instagib charger/AoOer with Knockback and Thicket.

The arena is open desert, and the critters appear basically where you want them, but you have no control over the exact placement, i.e. one or all could appear 100ft in the air, so no putting them in Forcecages or traps. You can ready one standard action before they appear, and all the usual buffs you would have up for a four-encounter day, plus, if necessary, Fly or equivalent, if you have it.

Tenebrous Apostate

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I don't know if it constitutes a strategy but I had some Ideas that even a generic party could acomlplish. Since you can wait for the creatures buffed a Cleric and wizard/sorccerer can cast Investure of the Amnizu (FCII) that would be maximized through a wand and empowered by merit of the Soul tick symbiont(FF). The wizard should have spectral hand on so he can deliver the touch attack from afar and the cleric should cast dispel magic in the Master's quiver of Ehlonna (several times if need be) so he cannot attack from range. While the Barbarian or fighter or what have you distracts the master (the hounds should be of the ring at round 3,max) The Rouge should go snatch (sunder) the quiver. After that flank the Master while the wizard switches between enervasion and rays of enfeeblement (true casting and Assay spell resistance should help with the master's magical defenses). After a few rounds of this the Warrior type should be able to sunder the master's halberd away as well. (he might be unable to survive that but that's why someone should keep dispeling and the fifth member of the teams should be a healer type. With a minimum of lucky rolls and ready actions (you can try adding a few summons into the mix) you should be able to kill that big bully with minimum effort and no casualties
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Bloody Initiate

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Lol, that would be pretty fantastic to see a party focused on Sundering putting the smack on a CR 22. Given that the power of a lot of high CR creatures has ties in their high-powered magic items, it does kinda make sense that a party determined to eliminate said items would occasionally stand a better chance against a high-CR encounter than a normal party.

The problem is that a party focused on destroying items is a rare concept, and in order to compete with the opposed checks of an encounter of that CR said party would not only have to be focused on destroying items but optimized for doing so. It's not really "practical optimization" in a lot of people's eyes, but in the right encounters I think eliminating items is way more effective than some would like to think. Then again one of the problems with item-eliminating characters is that they don't get us much loot and therefore don't advance as nicely.

On the exp reward tables there are no exp rewards listed for CRs higher than 8 levels apart, of course your DM rolled back the encounter so it's irrelevant, but I thought it worth mentioning.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2009, 01:59:39 PM by Bloody Initiate »
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Anklebite

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explosive runes.  alot of explosive runes.
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Tenebrous Apostate

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Hardly sunderers. Only the warrior type needs such advancement (Only one feat) the others could be for example, a frost mage an eldritch disciple, a Healer and a Hellbreaker. All perfectly capable of pulling of such strategies without losing focus on anything else. maybe the rouge should UMD a wand of Dispell instead of the wizard or cleirc doing it (wich is perfectly capable of different strategies)
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juton

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Correct me if I'm wrong but his only defense against Ray of Dizzyness is his high SR. Assay spell resistance takes that way. So for a 3rd and 4th level spell you drop his damage output per round to roughly a Monks, your beatsticks can just hack on him till he falls over, he doesn't seem to have any really offensive SLA. Lather, Rinse, Repeat for any of his pets.

Endarire

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Hood - My first answer to all your build questions; past, present, and future.

Speaking of which:
Don't even need TO for this.  Any decent Hood build, especially one with Celerity, one-rounds [Azathoth, the most powerful greater deity from d20 Cthulu].
Does it bug anyone else that we've reached the point where characters who can obliterate a greater deity in one round are considered "decent?"

CyMage

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Hood.

Netiquette

As someone pointed out, Assay Spell Resitance should help out a lot for your casters. 
« Last Edit: December 02, 2009, 04:04:53 PM by CyMage »

bearsarebrown

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Hood.

Netiquette

Not only that, but the reply doesn't even make sense. He's explicitly mentioned Hood and said it was it.

PhaedrusXY

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I don't remember the stats of the Wild Hunt, but I'd bet our group from Dispatching the Message could give them a run for their money. Since you have to pick 5, I'd say morthos, irthos, talsor, gabriel, and jarkar. In fact, without actually looking at their stats, and just going on what you said, I'd guess Gabriel might take them by himself... ;)
« Last Edit: December 02, 2009, 05:58:32 PM by PhaedrusXY »
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

The_Mad_Linguist

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Level twelve?  By that point I typically have a stronghold of some sort (even if it isn't mobile).  I'd let him bring the fight to me, and impale himself on my fortress.
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Brainpiercing

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Hood.
Oh, I'd love to, but NO, unfortunately. If I can't even get a valorous weapon, how are my chances of multipouncing? Also, the Hood has a problem if it's just flat ground and critters are flying even as low as 50ft. That's a DC80 jump check, if you're large and get a house-ruled 25ft reach (i.e. 15ft instead of 10, or else it's a DC100 jump check). Granted, I didn't need it this encounter, but highjump DCs generally do suck.

Endarire

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With a Dragonborn or Raptoran at level 12, you can fly.  That's extraordinary flight, allowing you to flap, flap to where you want to be and drop to where you want to go.
Hood - My first answer to all your build questions; past, present, and future.

Speaking of which:
Don't even need TO for this.  Any decent Hood build, especially one with Celerity, one-rounds [Azathoth, the most powerful greater deity from d20 Cthulu].
Does it bug anyone else that we've reached the point where characters who can obliterate a greater deity in one round are considered "decent?"

Negative Zero

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Hey, Brainpiercing, why do you keep bringing up multipouncing? Multipouncing means getting several pounces in a turn (usually through Shadowpouncing), not pouncing with tons of damage multipliers.

The_Mad_Linguist

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So, am I the only one who thinks that anything that lets you take out CRs nine above your own with no forewarning is by definition outside the realm of "practical" optimization.
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PhaedrusXY

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So, am I the only one who thinks that anything that lets you take out CRs nine above your own with no forewarning is by definition outside the realm of "practical" optimization.
:lol
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

The_Mad_Linguist

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I mean, if it were only eight CRs above your level that would be fine. :p

I assume that the standard buffs include some sort of flight.  That's all I need.

Factotum 8/Iaijutsu master 5, with feats of font of inspiration x4, quick draw, improved init, item familiar, and WF(katana), and a charisma of 24 (doable with an iaijutsu focus focused build).

Notable Equipment:  +1 focus katana of legacy, daggers out the wazoo, item familiar belt of battle.
Iaijutsu focus check:
16(ranks)
+16(Item familiar)
+7 (cha)
+10 (weapon of legacy)

total of +49, so always add 9d6 +63 damage on an IF attack

I assume you win init: there's the belt of battle bonus, you have improved initiative, and you're adding int, cha, and dex to init.

That's 5+1+2+3+4 = 15 inspiration points.  

Round 1:
Swift action: cast wraithstrike.  The master of the hunt's flatfooted touch AC is a measly 16, and your BAB is 11.  Picking up four points of attack bonus, so you only miss on a 1, isn't difficult.
Full round (item familiar belt of battle activates itself): CHAAAAARGE + iaijutsu
6 standard actions:
Draw + Iaijutsued maximized (weapon of legacy slot E) Vampiric touch + drop
Draw + Iaijutsu + drop x5

Damage total (assuming all attacks hit) is 5d4 (five daggers) + d10 (bastard sword) +24(vampiric touch) + 63d6+63*charisma mod + 7* str mod -15*6 (DR).  That's an average of
5*2.5+5.5+24+63*3.6-15*6+6*str+63*cha damage.  Let's assume, for sake of argument, that the character has a strength of four, and as previously stated, a cha of 24.

That's an average of 601.8 damage

Oh, and you gain 24+9d6+9*cha mod = 118.5 temp HP.  You'll need them if he isn't quite dead.


What do you expend in terms of non per-encounter resources?
Two of your spells (you have four, since item familiar gets a freebie)
One use of your sudden maximize/day
All three charges from your belt of battle.


The thing is, if you don't go nova and use up all your standard actions in one round, this is actually a pretty practical build.  And if you're fighting multiple opponents, you don't have nearly the same damage potential, since you can't just stand there and 7x iaijutsu them.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2009, 09:42:23 AM by The_Mad_Linguist »
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Brainpiercing

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So, am I the only one who thinks that anything that lets you take out CRs nine above your own with no forewarning is by definition outside the realm of "practical" optimization.
Well, as a means of finding out just how OFF the CR system can be, I don't think it is. While the definition of TO is vague, the amount of power you can gain with practical op is amazing, and as you go a little higher, 9 higher isn't really that much. It's just quite a bit at level 12.

Hey, Brainpiercing, why do you keep bringing up multipouncing? Multipouncing means getting several pounces in a turn (usually through Shadowpouncing), not pouncing with tons of damage multipliers.
Multipouncing is accomplished via the Battle Jump/Sudden Leap combo, quite an integral part of most Hood builds, or so I thought.

I mean, if it were only eight CRs above your level that would be fine. :p

[snip]

The thing is, if you don't go nova and use up all your standard actions in one round, this is actually a pretty practical build.  And if you're fighting multiple opponents, you don't have nearly the same damage potential, since you can't just stand there and 7x iaijutsu them.

This is actually quite nice. I still can't do it, because flaws are never allowed in any game I play in, for some reason, but for all practical terms this is very viable, and the build won't usually seem that overpowered.

In more practical terms it might be possible to do it with a Quickrazor build. Base damage is lower, but you get to actually put decent enhancements on your weapon, which a draw&drop build can't afford.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2009, 06:09:31 AM by Brainpiercing »

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No MM V at hand right now, butthe dogs can't fly, right? Taking out them afterwards should be a big problem with Forcecage shenanigans.

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The_Mad_Linguist

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If no flaws are around, add in a level of some flavor of cleric.

Select the war domain to pick up weapon focus: katana, and the time domain to pick up improved initiative.

Or, with five party members, just drop two fonts of inspiration and have two factota with four attacks each attack the master instead of one.  This is actually more effective than one guy, since you're doing eight total attacks instead of seven, and have two inspiration points to spend to add another 2d6 sneak attack damage to the vampiric touch (which, according to the sage, at least, is perfectly valid).


The other nice thing about the build is that it's effective at low levels, draws from only three sourcebooks outside the SRD, and has decent versatility even after alpha striking (most weapon of legacy abilities are still unassigned, and there's a lot of cash left over).  You can also cut out the weapon of legacy if you want, and replace it with a metamagic rod, masterwork tool, skill focus(IF) {from bonus feat}, a circlet of persuasion and that ivy armor what secretes pheromones.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2009, 09:57:12 AM by The_Mad_Linguist »
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