Author Topic: Multiple Magic Systems  (Read 7448 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

KellKheraptis

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 2668
  • What's the matter? I thought you had me...
    • Email
Multiple Magic Systems
« on: December 01, 2009, 08:20:14 AM »
Has anyone ever tried to put together a build that achieves at least dual 9's with significant to high capability it two or more other magic systems?  For example, a Totemist X/Ur-Priest 2/Binder 1/Anima Mage Y/Something Z ?  Maybe screw up 12 levels of psionic PrC's in there and add Ardent 1, or do similar with ToB (though even 8th level maneuvers will still own face with ToB).  Would love to see some variety builds like that that also retain functionality, and I'll see about posting my own when I get one made (if the case in point works, all the better!).

Ok, if I'm using an Illumian, I can get up to +3 EBL/CL/ML.  Does this also apply to Soulmelds for getting Essentia?  It's no biggie if it doesn't, as I can always use spells to open things up and fill the globes, so to speak (d2 slang...).  Totemist 4/Binder 1 gets into Ur-Priest quite handily, from there we pick up Ur 2/PrC Pally 1/Anima Mage 10?  That'd be buffzilla with three spell lists and nice EBL, plus lots of bonus abilities from soulmelds.  Um...last two levels would be fielder's choice?  Maybe Barb 1 for Pounce+Rage, and Totem Rager 1?  Routine when melee required would be buff from Ur-Priest and incarnum, pick up some nice passives from Binder, and then rip/shred/destroy in a rage.  Best I can do with 0 sleep thus far :P  Gotta be a way to get higher level binding on an Ur-Priest while still getting Psionics too (other than the psionic binds).
« Last Edit: December 01, 2009, 09:43:30 AM by KellKheraptis »
BG's Resident Black Hatter
The Mango List Reborn!
My Warmage Trickery (coming soon!)
My PrC Pally Trickery (coming soon!)
The D&D Archive
-Work in progress!

Rebel7284

  • Grape ape
  • *****
  • Posts: 1585
Re: Multiple Magic Systems
« Reply #1 on: December 01, 2009, 12:01:43 PM »
bloodlines are nice for this if allowed.
Negative level on a chicken would make it a wight the next day.  Chicken the other wight meat. -borg286

Prime32

  • Administrator
  • Organ Grinder
  • *
  • Posts: 7534
  • Modding since 03/12/10
Re: Multiple Magic Systems
« Reply #2 on: December 01, 2009, 12:09:12 PM »
There is a feat which is awesome for builds with access to multiple magic systems. It's called
[spoiler]Leadership. :P Seriously though, some thrallherd levels will give you more cohorts, and if you want all the casting in one character just make your cohorts Fiends of Possession.[/spoiler]
My work
The tier system in a nutshell:
[spoiler]Tier 6: A cartographer.
Tier 5: An expert cartographer or a decent marksman.
Tier 4: An expert marksman.
Tier 3: An expert marksman, cartographer and chef who can tie strong knots and is trained in hostage negotiation or a marksman so good he can shoot down every bullet fired by a minigun while armed with a rusted single-shot pistol that veers to the left.
Tier 2: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything, or the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.
Tier 1: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything and the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.[/spoiler]

KellKheraptis

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 2668
  • What's the matter? I thought you had me...
    • Email
Re: Multiple Magic Systems
« Reply #3 on: December 01, 2009, 12:31:35 PM »
I've noticed bloodlines work really well with binder/ardent.  Can Illumian progress Ur-Priest at all?  Also, it seems that with proper investment in spells/powers, a one level dip is all that's really needed to max out incarnum (or at least be really really good at it).  And when you can auto-persist things...Incarnum Apotheosis seems really sexy.  If Illumian can progress Ur-Priest though, I can get it all, 9th arcane and divine (my usual Ur-trick), full meldshaping, 8th level vestiges, 9th level powers, without a bloodline (though that may end up being more optimal, ironically).
BG's Resident Black Hatter
The Mango List Reborn!
My Warmage Trickery (coming soon!)
My PrC Pally Trickery (coming soon!)
The D&D Archive
-Work in progress!

Agita

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 5465
  • SFT is mai waifu.
Re: Multiple Magic Systems
« Reply #4 on: December 01, 2009, 12:44:59 PM »
I've noticed bloodlines work really well with binder/ardent.  Can Illumian progress Ur-Priest at all?  Also, it seems that with proper investment in spells/powers, a one level dip is all that's really needed to max out incarnum (or at least be really really good at it).  And when you can auto-persist things...Incarnum Apotheosis seems really sexy.  If Illumian can progress Ur-Priest though, I can get it all, 9th arcane and divine (my usual Ur-trick), full meldshaping, 8th level vestiges, 9th level powers, without a bloodline (though that may end up being more optimal, ironically).
:plot Is there any way to add lvl 9 maneuvers without gestalt? Perhaps using some rebuilding tech?
It's all about vision and making reality conform to your vision. By dropping a fucking house on it.

Agita's Awesome Poster Compilation
Lycanthromancer's Awesome Poster Compilation

shaikujin

  • Ring-Tailed Lemur
  • **
  • Posts: 41
Re: Multiple Magic Systems
« Reply #5 on: December 01, 2009, 01:56:30 PM »
I've noticed bloodlines work really well with binder/ardent.  Can Illumian progress Ur-Priest at all?  Also, it seems that with proper investment in spells/powers, a one level dip is all that's really needed to max out incarnum (or at least be really really good at it).  And when you can auto-persist things...Incarnum Apotheosis seems really sexy.  If Illumian can progress Ur-Priest though, I can get it all, 9th arcane and divine (my usual Ur-trick), full meldshaping, 8th level vestiges, 9th level powers, without a bloodline (though that may end up being more optimal, ironically).

Yup, illumian (improved sigil) +bloodlines works really well with binder/ardent! Then use the psionic variant of anima mage. It's not my idea, I read it on the CO boards. Throw in practiced manifester and improved binding for early qualification tricks to get into animal mage if wanted.

This part I am not so sure of, but Illumian +bloodlines should also boost initiator levels. To get level 9 maneuvers, you need to have IL of 17. Illumian give +3, 3 levels of bloodlines also gives +3. So that means you only need to get an IL of 11.

IL for multiclassed chars = half of total char levels PLUS the IL of any initiator classes. So a level 20 multiclassed character with only 1 level of crusader has an IL of (20/2 + 1) = 11. Just nice. However, I don't think you can take 9th level manuevers at crusader 1, in that case, you will need to take 1 more level of crusader (at character level 18 or higher) and use that level to learn the level 9 maneuvers.

If it all works out,
Illumian with improved sigils,
bloodlines 3/ardent 1/binder 1/anima mage 10/xxx 3/crusader 2

Should get 9/9/9, with 3 free levels for whatever else you want. Ur priest maybe? No restriction for Illumians taking levels in Ur priest. Or totemist... 9/9/9 + 2


Also for the ardent, have a erudite cohort with the convert spell to power ability Psychic Chirurgery converted divine/arcane/druid/paladin/bard spells to you. 9/9/9 + 2 + 9/9/9/9/9. If your gm only allows epic erudites to convert level 9 spells, ask him if he's ok with allowing you to find and pay an epic level NPC erudite to do it (just the level 9 spells).

I am currently trying to see if I can add in Illithid savant and gestalt the whole damn thing...
« Last Edit: December 01, 2009, 02:04:20 PM by shaikujin »

bearsarebrown

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 2616
Re: Multiple Magic Systems
« Reply #6 on: December 01, 2009, 02:22:53 PM »
I know PlzBreakMyCampaign has a triple 9 build out there somewhere... CL/ML/IL

KellKheraptis

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 2668
  • What's the matter? I thought you had me...
    • Email
Re: Multiple Magic Systems
« Reply #7 on: December 02, 2009, 12:54:52 AM »
I know PlzBreakMyCampaign has a triple 9 build out there somewhere... CL/ML/IL

His IIRC was arcane/divine/psionic.  Arcane/Psionic/ToB isn't too terribly hard, and counting Ur-Priest shenanigans is almost too easy.  Getting Divine/Psionic/ToB with Ur doubling for Arcane via SotAO trickery would be quad nines, now to work in binding and meldshaping.  One feat basically gives access to all meldshaping through incarnum spells, but the binding part is...tricky.
BG's Resident Black Hatter
The Mango List Reborn!
My Warmage Trickery (coming soon!)
My PrC Pally Trickery (coming soon!)
The D&D Archive
-Work in progress!

bearsarebrown

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 2616
Re: Multiple Magic Systems
« Reply #8 on: December 02, 2009, 12:57:57 AM »
I know PlzBreakMyCampaign has a triple 9 build out there somewhere... CL/ML/IL

His IIRC was arcane/divine/psionic.  Arcane/Psionic/ToB isn't too terribly hard, and counting Ur-Priest shenanigans is almost too easy.  Getting Divine/Psionic/ToB with Ur doubling for Arcane via SotAO trickery would be quad nines, now to work in binding and meldshaping.  One feat basically gives access to all meldshaping through incarnum spells, but the binding part is...tricky.

yeah you're right it was arcane/divine/psionic.

shaikujin

  • Ring-Tailed Lemur
  • **
  • Posts: 41
Re: Multiple Magic Systems
« Reply #9 on: December 02, 2009, 09:37:48 AM »
Totemist 4/Binder 1 gets into Ur-Priest quite handily, from there we pick up Ur 2/PrC Pally 1/Anima Mage 10?

I wanted to combine Ur Priest and the PRC Pally as well, prob is the alignment issue. Ur Priest needs to be evil, PRC Pally needs to be lawful good :(

KellKheraptis

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 2668
  • What's the matter? I thought you had me...
    • Email
Re: Multiple Magic Systems
« Reply #10 on: December 02, 2009, 09:46:56 AM »
Totemist 4/Binder 1 gets into Ur-Priest quite handily, from there we pick up Ur 2/PrC Pally 1/Anima Mage 10?

I wanted to combine Ur Priest and the PRC Pally as well, prob is the alignment issue. Ur Priest needs to be evil, PRC Pally needs to be lawful good :(


I'm gonna freakin' add this to my sig I say it so often :P  Ur-priest has an adaptation that has zilch alignment requirement.  In another thread I even specifically call out examples of GOOD dead gods.  Furthermore, paladins of all alignments exist.  By extension, given the parameters of utilizing PrC Pally, they would also exist as all alignments if they are in PrC form.  Thus, alignment and really deity is a nonissue.  My example was Ur-Priest while still being a Sanctified of Kord, as he was separated from his deity by planar boundries (FR instead of Greyhawk), and became even more powerful to spite Faerun's pantheon.  Fits mechanically, and thematically it's perfect for a follower of the god of strength to muscle through a petty setback like not having a divine tie anymore.
BG's Resident Black Hatter
The Mango List Reborn!
My Warmage Trickery (coming soon!)
My PrC Pally Trickery (coming soon!)
The D&D Archive
-Work in progress!

shaikujin

  • Ring-Tailed Lemur
  • **
  • Posts: 41
Re: Multiple Magic Systems
« Reply #11 on: December 02, 2009, 10:54:29 AM »
Totemist 4/Binder 1 gets into Ur-Priest quite handily, from there we pick up Ur 2/PrC Pally 1/Anima Mage 10?

I wanted to combine Ur Priest and the PRC Pally as well, prob is the alignment issue. Ur Priest needs to be evil, PRC Pally needs to be lawful good :(


I'm gonna freakin' add this to my sig I say it so often :P  Ur-priest has an adaptation that has zilch alignment requirement.  In another thread I even specifically call out examples of GOOD dead gods.  Furthermore, paladins of all alignments exist.  By extension, given the parameters of utilizing PrC Pally, they would also exist as all alignments if they are in PrC form.  Thus, alignment and really deity is a nonissue.  My example was Ur-Priest while still being a Sanctified of Kord, as he was separated from his deity by planar boundries (FR instead of Greyhawk), and became even more powerful to spite Faerun's pantheon.  Fits mechanically, and thematically it's perfect for a follower of the god of strength to muscle through a petty setback like not having a divine tie anymore.

Do you have a link? I'm very interested as I wanted to find a way to do this. When I read first the adaptation, I was thinking Mystra would be the perfect choice for me (I wanted to do sword of the arcane pally substitution as well). But folks pointed out to me that the requirement for Ur Priest was evil and the adaptation didn't say anything about being able to change the alignment requirement...

bearsarebrown

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 2616
Re: Multiple Magic Systems
« Reply #12 on: December 02, 2009, 11:01:14 AM »
It doesn't, but I think it's implied. Why would following a dead god be evil?

KellKheraptis

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 2668
  • What's the matter? I thought you had me...
    • Email
Re: Multiple Magic Systems
« Reply #13 on: December 02, 2009, 11:02:52 AM »
Totemist 4/Binder 1 gets into Ur-Priest quite handily, from there we pick up Ur 2/PrC Pally 1/Anima Mage 10?

I wanted to combine Ur Priest and the PRC Pally as well, prob is the alignment issue. Ur Priest needs to be evil, PRC Pally needs to be lawful good :(


I'm gonna freakin' add this to my sig I say it so often :P  Ur-priest has an adaptation that has zilch alignment requirement.  In another thread I even specifically call out examples of GOOD dead gods.  Furthermore, paladins of all alignments exist.  By extension, given the parameters of utilizing PrC Pally, they would also exist as all alignments if they are in PrC form.  Thus, alignment and really deity is a nonissue.  My example was Ur-Priest while still being a Sanctified of Kord, as he was separated from his deity by planar boundries (FR instead of Greyhawk), and became even more powerful to spite Faerun's pantheon.  Fits mechanically, and thematically it's perfect for a follower of the god of strength to muscle through a petty setback like not having a divine tie anymore.

Do you have a link? I'm very interested as I wanted to find a way to do this. When I read first the adaptation, I was thinking Mystra would be the perfect choice for me (I wanted to do sword of the arcane pally substitution as well). But folks pointed out to me that the requirement for Ur Priest was evil and the adaptation didn't say anything about being able to change the alignment requirement...

There isn't a link for it, it's an alternate entry requirement.  It states Ur-Priest can also be used to represent those cut off from their deity, those following a dead deity (gee, Waukeen comes to mind), or those attempting to reascend a deity (Bane, pre-reincarnation?).  None of these are inherently evil, as the initial class suggests, and quite frankly, the idea of a power leeching atheist isn't either.  Unethical, perhaps, but that's a whole different can of worms I warn will best be left to the M-forum if I get involved (stemming all the way back from 1st edition arguments about rangers using poison).
BG's Resident Black Hatter
The Mango List Reborn!
My Warmage Trickery (coming soon!)
My PrC Pally Trickery (coming soon!)
The D&D Archive
-Work in progress!

NeverGetDrunkButStaySober

  • That monkey with the orange ass cheeks
  • ****
  • Posts: 227
Re: Multiple Magic Systems
« Reply #14 on: December 02, 2009, 11:05:17 AM »
I know PlzBreakMyCampaign has a triple 9 build out there somewhere... CL/ML/IL
...  One feat basically gives access to all meldshaping through incarnum spells, but the binding part is...tricky.
How's this one done? You can get decent access to (fake) essentia and chakra binds, but I don't recall any spells that grant soulmelds.

altpersona

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 2939
  • BG forum Emperor Ad Litem
    • Altpersona.net
Re: Multiple Magic Systems
« Reply #15 on: December 02, 2009, 11:12:30 AM »
imo, if you focused your dual/tripple threat away from arcane/divine. but made sure you came out w/ shapechange, then you just added full arcane/divine to your arsenal.

actually, shapechange alone probably provides the full range of threats. if you can find the right creatures to become.
The goal of power is power. - idk
We are not descended from fearful men. - Murrow

The Final Countdown is now stuck in your head.

Anim-manga sux.


shaikujin

  • Ring-Tailed Lemur
  • **
  • Posts: 41
Re: Multiple Magic Systems
« Reply #16 on: December 02, 2009, 11:15:25 AM »
There isn't a link for it, it's an alternate entry requirement.

Sorry for not being clear, I mean the link to the thread where you mentioned this:

In another thread I even specifically call out examples of GOOD dead gods.  Furthermore, paladins of all alignments exist.  By extension, given the parameters of utilizing PrC Pally, they would also exist as all alignments if they are in PrC form.  Thus, alignment and really deity is a nonissue.  My example was Ur-Priest while still being a Sanctified of Kord, as he was separated from his deity by planar boundries (FR instead of Greyhawk), and became even more powerful to spite Faerun's pantheon.

KellKheraptis

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 2668
  • What's the matter? I thought you had me...
    • Email
Re: Multiple Magic Systems
« Reply #17 on: December 02, 2009, 11:33:34 AM »
No worries.  Here's the main one.  Might wanna bring the hard hat to game night if you bring either spellthief in that thread, and credit to anklebite for the inspiration for the original build.
BG's Resident Black Hatter
The Mango List Reborn!
My Warmage Trickery (coming soon!)
My PrC Pally Trickery (coming soon!)
The D&D Archive
-Work in progress!

bearsarebrown

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 2616
Re: Multiple Magic Systems
« Reply #18 on: December 02, 2009, 12:41:14 PM »
...  One feat basically gives access to all meldshaping through incarnum spells, but the binding part is...tricky.
How's this one done? You can get decent access to (fake) essentia and chakra binds, but I don't recall any spells that grant soulmelds.
[/quote]

I know there is a psionic power that lets you open ANY chakra bind with enough pp invested.

NeverGetDrunkButStaySober

  • That monkey with the orange ass cheeks
  • ****
  • Posts: 227
Re: Multiple Magic Systems
« Reply #19 on: December 02, 2009, 02:31:49 PM »
Er, that psionic power doesn't open all the chakra binds (most, but not Heart or Soul), and what I was getting at was that both that and essentia augment the meat of meldshaping - soulmelds.