Summon mirror mephit: CL 8 simulacrum as a second level spell

[The_Mad_Linguist]

Some spells are described as conjuring creatures (such as summon monster, mordenkaiden's faithful hound, and prismatic sphere).  Simulacrum isn't one of them.  Conjure is only used as a verb in reference to conjuration spells throughout the rules text.

So if I find one instance of it being used not to reference a conjuration spell or effect then does that prove I'm correct?

I doubt you can find a reference when specifically referencing the effect of a spell.

It's a really big stretch to say "conjure" does not mean "create through conjuration".  Especially given the description of the conjuration school.

[Azrael]

Or maybe the writers were just using conjure as the word...because...you know...the word has been around for quite a bit longer than D&D has and it does have a meaning completely independent of any D&D material. Besides, if they wanted to reference conjuration effects specifically couldn't they have just said conjuration spells and effects?

You could even say that illusion spells conjure images. Just because its not a conjuration spell or effect my usage of said word remains grammatically correct. Read the first line of Prismatic Sphere, which is an Abjuration spell.

"This spell functions like prismatic wall except you conjure an immobile, opaque globe of shimmering, multicolored light..."

See, this is my point exactly. If I can make even the slightest bit of a logical argument contrary to your point any DM with half of a brain will do the same thing.

[PhaedrusXY]

Using your logic, you could claim that any spell or SLA "conjures" something. You've generalized the term to all-inclusive meaningless. You also seem to go out of your way to be a dick. Are you Kaelic with a different user name?

[Azrael]

I'm just playing the "devils advocate" i.e. every DM I have ever played with.

I have become accustom to DMs pulling out every trick in the book in order to nerf everything I do. Therefore, unless its 99.99% unarguable, I usually just write it off since I would never be allowed to use it because some dick DM will come up with an excuse like the ones I mentioned.

Also, yes, by that logic it does become all-inclusive except for the fact that the summon mirror mephit spell says "cannot summon or otherwise conjure another creature."

Therefore, the "all-inclusiveness" of said word (conjure) is limited to only affects (SLA or otherwise) which create other creatures. Also notice the word "otherwise," this actually eludes to the fact that their intent is to exclude the mirror mephit from performing any action which creates another creature; since they mention "summon" and "conjure" exclusively.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

Like, say, conjuration(creation) or conjuration(calling)?

[Azrael]

Or if you go with the "all-inclusive" argument, any affect which produces another creature out of nothing.

Believe me, I would like to use it in that manner but I think I have made a good enough argument that any DM (if the same argument is replicated) will rule in opposition to it. Neither of are arguments are 100% solid; it seems more like a 50/50 situation here, therefore, by default, its the DM's job to adjudicate.

On another note, assuming it does work, how can we get this Mirror Mephit (CL 8) to make a simulacrum of a 20th level caster?

[PhaedrusXY]

Believe me, I would like to use it in that manner but I think I have made a good enough argument that any DM (if the same argument is replicated) will rule in opposition to it.

This is a very silly statement. As if all DMs are the same, and are robots or something. I DM, and I still don't agree with you... I'd guess that most of the DMs I play under wouldn't either.

[Azrael]

Believe me, I would like to use it in that manner but I think I have made a good enough argument that any DM (if the same argument is replicated) will rule in opposition to it.

This is a very silly statement. As if all DMs are the same, and are robots or something. I DM, and I still don't agree with you... I'd guess that most of the DMs I play under wouldn't either.

Sorry, I meant to say that any DM I have played with.

Still, all or not, there are those that will...which is the reason I still want to know how to get it to simulacrum a 20th level caster. Just in case I ever actually get to use it; which would actually be beneficial to the DM because I would probably end up playing the campaign with the 10th level simulacrum while my 20th level character waits in an extradimensional space until needed. In most campaigns I have played in, my 10th level builds are usually more than enough to take on most 20th level challenges.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

You simulacrum a level 20 caster by using it as a means to enter the efreeti wish chain.

[Azrael]

By using the mirror mephit...

[The_Mad_Linguist]

By using the mirror mephit...

Yeah.  Efreeti are less than eight HD.

So a half-as-powerful efreeti would have something greater than or equal to limited wish.  At which point you can duplicate planar binding, get a real efreet, and thereby a real wish.

[Azrael]

So a half-as-powerful efreeti would have something greater than or equal to limited wish.  

What an assumption that is...who says!?!

In fact, there's some evidence to the contrary. If you note the section about Noble Djinn it says they have the ability to create wishes and are 10 HD. Therefore, one might assume that you need at least 10 HD to have the wish SLA. And there's no evidence that says when you de-advance a creature's HD it retains lesser forms of SLA's it once had.

Besides, in order to get an Efreeti you need to either encounter one or use planar binding yourself (in which case you don't need the mirror mephit).

Isn't there any way to give the mirror mephit a CL boost or something simple like that.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

The limited wish thing was snarking.

[snakeman830]

On the other hand, there is nothing stating that creatures lose spell-like abilities as they lose HD either.  Only a few creatures gain Sp abilities as they advance, but those are very specific cases.  Most simply advance HD and gain no new abilities, hinting that the opposite, losing HD, would also not lose any abilities.


If you Sirmiculum a Githyanki, the copy could easily be argued to lose spell-like abilities because Githyanki DO gain more abilities as they advance.  If you do the same to a Malrith, things become far more questionable, since they gain no new abilities as they advance in HD.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

I suppose you could also simulacrum an advanced HD efreet as well, since simulacrums are of specific entities.  That would give a 8 HD simulacrum, instead of the original 10 hd.

Toss 'em a couple of CL-increasing items (I think there's a holy symbol and some optional material components) to increase CL by two, and presto.

[PhaedrusXY]

Besides, in order to get an Efreeti you need to either encounter one or use planar binding yourself (in which case you don't need the mirror mephit).

No you don't. SLAs don't require components. So you don't need a piece of one. An appropriate knowledge (the planes) check would tell you everything you need to know about efreet.

[Azrael]

True...I guess I forgot about that.

So we are basically talking about Pun Pun at level 1? (without the Pazuzu trick; which I always found a bit sketchy anyway).

[Archmage Joda]

That would depend upon whether Manipulate Form (also perhaps divine rank?) are counted as abilities that the simulacra in question would have, I think

[Azrael]

Not really...you use the mephit to simulacrum an efreeti the efreeti grants wishes, you use one to call a Sarrukh, you tell Sarrukh to give you the manipulate form ability...the rest should be obvious.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

If you have 200 gp of starting gold, you can buy Agony (liquid pain) for 200 gp.  Increases the CL of a single spell by 2... not sure if optional material components work with slas, though.