Neep help with Epic tactics

[Brainpiercing]

@Operation Shoestring: Not necessarily.

• Where would you get all those spell slots to power your casting frenzies, anyway?
• Sometimes you may need to do other things with the actions at hand; I've played in a high-epic (50 gestalt) arena in which the competent opponents were immune to a lot of stuff, including whole classes of spells.
• Indeed, much of epic tactics centers around grabbing piles of immunities.
• What happens if/when you run into a counterspelling maniac with a lot of slots? I've geared up one character to pull off that trick with more spells per school than most casters would have in total.
• How would you penetrate the immunities of your opponents - the sorts that can block classes A-Z of effects, with high saves, Evasion, and Mettle? Sometimes you may need to pull out a dispel. Either MDJ (which has its own wonky consequences, and which is kinda likely to be countered by a savvy opponent) or an epic Dispel (hint: convert it to an area).
• Many immunities are powered by spells of various sorts. So what happens if you use the Ward seed to shut down the likely candidates? Or you block your opponent's likely offensive spells?

Got to a bit of rambling there...

This is pretty accurate. Most of the critters (and PCs, if they are buffed) are largely immune to many things. What still seems to work is plain clobbering and select blasting.  Dispelling is probably the most dangerous thing WE are facing right now. The thing about this campaign is that you don't even need epic dispells to counter a CL 50 spell, because all spells that offer a scaling benefit up to CL20 have been uncapped, i.e. a simple GDM gives full CL bonus. Also, damage spells can put out hundreds of d6s (what with twinning, empowering, or even intensifying).
I do have to say though that blowing a gazillion spells is still fairly viable. Slots are not too big a problem. My cohort has 18 or so 9th level slots. The necro hasn't, because I didn't get an epic Cha buff for him (and only the Wilder had one, but he keeps not showing...), but I'll either see if I can make a Cha copy of Owl's Insight as spell research or buy an epic spell at the next opportunity.
However, whenever CL isn't that important, there is another nice epic critter that can fuel all your Nova-needs :). The Gibbering Orb. You can fire 24 eye rays as Su abilities every round, and even Disjunction. That should be enough blasting :).

@Brainpiercing: Odd. I'd always thought that demilich flight was supernatural, but upon rereading it seems that you retain supernatural flight in addition to gaining the best movement mode ever printed.

Another method I just thought of to counter disintegration. Is Halaster blasting you with ranged touch attacks? If so, try Persistent Ray Deflection - it'll block them all.

I do have Ray Deflection up at all times (on items, in fact, slotless, and well hidden away). The trouble is, as I've said in the opening post, that I keep forgetting stuff, and so does the DM. I'm quite certain he did Force damage to his Force Dragon shaped DMPC :). I'm NOT sure he told me what spell effects were rays and which weren't, but in any case, I forgot to ask. So yeah, Disintegrate is not a problem unless he casts stuff like BBoD or SoUD (and both are so slow I can easily outmaneuver them.)

[Brainpiercing]

I talked with my DM about this fight. Well, it turns out he didn't make so many mistakes, although he still doesn't describe his effects, basically at all.
What he did do, however, is apparently give his Demilich a Constitution boosting epic spell, which... right, which just plain doesn't work. At most that thing could have something like 780HP without shenanigans (so temp HP, whatever). Even if I only nicked it for 25 each swing so far, which is reasonable, because it has high DR and only takes half melee damage due to Sublime Revelry, it should still have fallen already or fall soon. AND I was stupid, before, because I never even checked for its buff spells. That's what happens when you start fights at 4am. NOONE thought about looking at its spell effects, and we'd talked about other people having Greater Arcane Sight up all the time, before.

[NeverGetDrunkButStaySober]

At 4 AM, you don't make mistakes, just creative reinterpretations. (Though I have made a demilich that was capable of benefiting from a Constitution buff. Many shenanigans were involved.)

[VennDygrem]

This thread just goes to show me that I may very well be completely screwed in my own epic-level-moving campaign. It's only set to go to 30 levels, but I'm worried that my Shadowcraft Mage/Ultimate Magus won't be effective. The reasons should be obvious. >_>

[Operation Shoestring]

I was trying to develop an epic spell that would allow you to redo any one round, so you can have a second chance on screwing up.  That's sorta like an immunity, right?

[NeverGetDrunkButStaySober]

So, Shadow seed, mimicing Reality Revision? Though there's no given ad hoc effect to remove burning XP, I could see how doubling the normal bonus might work out with most effects. Would the slot then be discharged, or not? (Essentially, what's limiting infinite retries?)

[Lycanthromancer]

I was trying to develop an epic spell that would allow you to redo any one round, so you can have a second chance on screwing up.  That's sorta like an immunity, right?

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/timeRegression.htm

[Brainpiercing]

I was trying to develop an epic spell that would allow you to redo any one round, so you can have a second chance on screwing up.  That's sorta like an immunity, right?

Shapechange into Horrid (or greater, I forget) Vasuthant, and you can do that three times per day. Hmm, that one may not be available anymore post-errata, now that sucks, as it's 30 or so HD, IIRC.

However, we agreed in this group that we would do no such thing, because rounds take long enough to do, and even rolling back the sheets can sometimes take a while.

This thread just goes to show me that I may very well be completely screwed in my own epic-level-moving campaign. It's only set to go to 30 levels, but I'm worried that my Shadowcraft Mage/Ultimate Magus won't be effective. The reasons should be obvious. >_>

Well, a Shadowcraft mage can always go for shadow Miracles, so you WILL be very effective, IMHO. Also, our house rules change the picture in quite a few areas. Normal epic groups, with errata, may be entirely different, because you won't always have to keep up with DMM Cleric/Dweomerkeeper Great Wyrm Force Dragon DMPCs... Oh, I don't usually engage in penis contests, but if it's the DMPC....

[KellKheraptis]

Ok BP, from the looks of it the absolute #1 key resource for epic FR casters is on the table.  You need a mythal.  Screw that CL up into the stratosphere and make sure to make it tenacious so it can never be dispelled, only suppressed.  Also, think of every spell you cast a lot of and every item you wish you had.  Now add those into it too.  That's a huge defensive boost and a decent utilitarian offense all covered in one go.  Wanna hose the system?  Buy it for 1,000 gp from Boccob's Reading Room.  100 gp X Spell Level, epic spells are considered 10th level spells.  Need a Cha boost?  Same deal.  Hell, integrate an epic cloak of charisma into the mythal.  And as for other means of retaining effectiveness at epic...imagine a constant metamagic rod...or 8.  The math to make them is there (they are usually 3/day, pay for constant, on the same to save $$).  And oh yeah...you guessed it.  That can be emulated by the elven force field too.  You're an ancient elf who's extended his lifespan beyond it's years with no care for the pathetic ruminations of the warm-bodies.  Break out the big guns! 

[Brainpiercing]

Ok BP, from the looks of it the absolute #1 key resource for epic FR casters is on the table.  You need a mythal.  Screw that CL up into the stratosphere and make sure to make it tenacious so it can never be dispelled, only suppressed.  Also, think of every spell you cast a lot of and every item you wish you had.  Now add those into it too.  That's a huge defensive boost and a decent utilitarian offense all covered in one go.  Wanna hose the system?  Buy it for 1,000 gp from Boccob's Reading Room.  100 gp X Spell Level, epic spells are considered 10th level spells.  Need a Cha boost?  Same deal.  Hell, integrate an epic cloak of charisma into the mythal.  And as for other means of retaining effectiveness at epic...imagine a constant metamagic rod...or 8.  The math to make them is there (they are usually 3/day, pay for constant, on the same to save $$).  And oh yeah...you guessed it.  That can be emulated by the elven force field too.  You're an ancient elf who's extended his lifespan beyond it's years with no care for the pathetic ruminations of the warm-bodies.  Break out the big guns! 

How do I make the Mythal tenacious? Can I just use Tenacious Magic? The problem here is that I would need to make it with my necro to get all that Shadow-weave stuff for cheap, rather than my Cohort, who already has Epic Spellcasting. And that would suck.

[NeverGetDrunkButStaySober]

Ok BP, from the looks of it the absolute #1 key resource for epic FR casters is on the table.  You need a mythal.  Screw that CL up into the stratosphere and make sure to make it tenacious so it can never be dispelled, only suppressed.  Also, think of every spell you cast a lot of and every item you wish you had.  Now add those into it too.  That's a huge defensive boost and a decent utilitarian offense all covered in one go.  Wanna hose the system?  Buy it for 1,000 gp from Boccob's Reading Room.  100 gp X Spell Level, epic spells are considered 10th level spells.  Need a Cha boost?  Same deal.  Hell, integrate an epic cloak of charisma into the mythal.  And as for other means of retaining effectiveness at epic...imagine a constant metamagic rod...or 8.  The math to make them is there (they are usually 3/day, pay for constant, on the same to save $$).  And oh yeah...you guessed it.  That can be emulated by the elven force field too.  You're an ancient elf who's extended his lifespan beyond it's years with no care for the pathetic ruminations of the warm-bodies.  Break out the big guns! 

You wouldn't be able to cast all those spells directly, not with the campaign's limits on mitigation (ie, no more than half non-mitigated). So you'd be emulating (Persistent) Miracle - which I'd already mentioned - or the Shadow seed, which is rather goofy. Definitely in ad hoc territory.

How would you be adding items or at least their effects into the mythal? The seed itself mentions nothing of the sort, and even Wish can only produce things - not incorporate them. Perhaps prevalent powers would work, though that's also in ad hoc territory.

And you can't "buy" it from Boccob's Reading Room. Epic spells are only considered 10th-level spells in situations where spell level is forced to matter. ("Epic Spell Levels: Epic spells have no fixed level. However, for purposes of Concentration checks, spell resistance, and other possible situations where spell level is important, epic spells are all treated as if they were 10th-level spells.")

So I don't see how all the craziness you're talking about can actually happen without massive amounts of ad hoc. Don't get me wrong, mythals are still rather crazy if you know what you're doing (Metamagic'd Miracle, Tenacious Magic, target/area editing, and Keyed [all but the party] Arointed [everything] all work), but some of that stuff you're mentioning is not referred to or implied at all by the seed as given.

[KellKheraptis]

Ok BP, from the looks of it the absolute #1 key resource for epic FR casters is on the table.  You need a mythal.  Screw that CL up into the stratosphere and make sure to make it tenacious so it can never be dispelled, only suppressed.  Also, think of every spell you cast a lot of and every item you wish you had.  Now add those into it too.  That's a huge defensive boost and a decent utilitarian offense all covered in one go.  Wanna hose the system?  Buy it for 1,000 gp from Boccob's Reading Room.  100 gp X Spell Level, epic spells are considered 10th level spells.  Need a Cha boost?  Same deal.  Hell, integrate an epic cloak of charisma into the mythal.  And as for other means of retaining effectiveness at epic...imagine a constant metamagic rod...or 8.  The math to make them is there (they are usually 3/day, pay for constant, on the same to save $$).  And oh yeah...you guessed it.  That can be emulated by the elven force field too.  You're an ancient elf who's extended his lifespan beyond it's years with no care for the pathetic ruminations of the warm-bodies.  Break out the big guns! 

You wouldn't be able to cast all those spells directly, not with the campaign's limits on mitigation (ie, no more than half non-mitigated). So you'd be emulating (Persistent) Miracle - which I'd already mentioned - or the Shadow seed, which is rather goofy. Definitely in ad hoc territory.

How would you be adding items or at least their effects into the mythal? The seed itself mentions nothing of the sort, and even Wish can only produce things - not incorporate them. Perhaps prevalent powers would work, though that's also in ad hoc territory.

And you can't "buy" it from Boccob's Reading Room. Epic spells are only considered 10th-level spells in situations where spell level is forced to matter. ("Epic Spell Levels: Epic spells have no fixed level. However, for purposes of Concentration checks, spell resistance, and other possible situations where spell level is important, epic spells are all treated as if they were 10th-level spells.")

So I don't see how all the craziness you're talking about can actually happen without massive amounts of ad hoc. Don't get me wrong, mythals are still rather crazy if you know what you're doing (Metamagic'd Miracle, Tenacious Magic, target/area editing, and Keyed [all but the party] Arointed [everything] all work), but some of that stuff you're mentioning is not referred to or implied at all by the seed as given.

Let's see here...ANY power in existence, bar nothing, is implied and expressed with a measly 50,000 of mythal creation.  We're talking bend over and take the Empire State Building in the arse Pun-pun power.  "Major Prevalent Power" alone breaks mythals in half, and I'm the black hatter here, so if I call it bad, it's worse than poison ivy on the privates.  SCM's can emulate mythals thanks to being Evocations.  Spell Storing rings can hold an epic spell if it's the 10 level one, and filling a ring is well within the power of a greater effect from a Shadow Miracle.  Even if BRR is axed, there's plenty of ways around high cost epic magic.  Hell, as a dread necro I would fully advocate both Liquid Pain and souls for mitigation.  Why lose your own power and XP when a perfectly viable (and willing, if you've got a means of mind control) sacrifice will do just fine?

If the Wilder shows up and you really wanna crank it up a notch (read : make the DMPC cry), have the Wilder give you a full reformat psionically, and use one of my SCM magi.  You'll already have the mythal pre-epic.

Also, as I recall, making an epic spell non-dispellable is a factor that is applied during creation.  I used to have the link from 339 but it's fried now that they went to the new WSoD inducing format.

[NeverGetDrunkButStaySober]

Ok BP, from the looks of it the absolute #1 key resource for epic FR casters is on the table.  You need a mythal.  Screw that CL up into the stratosphere and make sure to make it tenacious so it can never be dispelled, only suppressed.  Also, think of every spell you cast a lot of and every item you wish you had.  Now add those into it too.  That's a huge defensive boost and a decent utilitarian offense all covered in one go.  Wanna hose the system?  Buy it for 1,000 gp from Boccob's Reading Room.  100 gp X Spell Level, epic spells are considered 10th level spells.  Need a Cha boost?  Same deal.  Hell, integrate an epic cloak of charisma into the mythal.  And as for other means of retaining effectiveness at epic...imagine a constant metamagic rod...or 8.  The math to make them is there (they are usually 3/day, pay for constant, on the same to save $$).  And oh yeah...you guessed it.  That can be emulated by the elven force field too.  You're an ancient elf who's extended his lifespan beyond it's years with no care for the pathetic ruminations of the warm-bodies.  Break out the big guns! 

You wouldn't be able to cast all those spells directly, not with the campaign's limits on mitigation (ie, no more than half non-mitigated). So you'd be emulating (Persistent) Miracle - which I'd already mentioned - or the Shadow seed, which is rather goofy. Definitely in ad hoc territory.

How would you be adding items or at least their effects into the mythal? The seed itself mentions nothing of the sort, and even Wish can only produce things - not incorporate them. Perhaps prevalent powers would work, though that's also in ad hoc territory.

And you can't "buy" it from Boccob's Reading Room. Epic spells are only considered 10th-level spells in situations where spell level is forced to matter. ("Epic Spell Levels: Epic spells have no fixed level. However, for purposes of Concentration checks, spell resistance, and other possible situations where spell level is important, epic spells are all treated as if they were 10th-level spells.")

So I don't see how all the craziness you're talking about can actually happen without massive amounts of ad hoc. Don't get me wrong, mythals are still rather crazy if you know what you're doing (Metamagic'd Miracle, Tenacious Magic, target/area editing, and Keyed [all but the party] Arointed [everything] all work), but some of that stuff you're mentioning is not referred to or implied at all by the seed as given.

Let's see here...ANY power in existence, bar nothing, is implied and expressed with a measly 50,000 of mythal creation.  We're talking bend over and take the Empire State Building in the arse Pun-pun power.  "Major Prevalent Power" alone breaks mythals in half, and I'm the black hatter here, so if I call it bad, it's worse than poison ivy on the privates.  SCM's can emulate mythals thanks to being Evocations.  Spell Storing rings can hold an epic spell if it's the 10 level one, and filling a ring is well within the power of a greater effect from a Shadow Miracle.  Even if BRR is axed, there's plenty of ways around high cost epic magic.  Hell, as a dread necro I would fully advocate both Liquid Pain and souls for mitigation.  Why lose your own power and XP when a perfectly viable (and willing, if you've got a means of mind control) sacrifice will do just fine?

If the Wilder shows up and you really wanna crank it up a notch (read : make the DMPC cry), have the Wilder give you a full reformat psionically, and use one of my SCM magi.  You'll already have the mythal pre-epic.

Also, as I recall, making an epic spell non-dispellable is a factor that is applied during creation.  I used to have the link from 339 but it's fried now that they went to the new WSoD inducing format.

Interpreting Major Prevalent Power in that way seems extremely fishy to me, not only because the text itself only goes up to mentioning major magic items (not epic stuff!), but also because it suggests increasing the costs on stuff that's continuous (as opposed to triggering only once).

SCMs and Spell Storing Rings won't be able to pull any emulation, either. See that bit about "no fixed level"? Plus, the party doesn't actually have an SCM. (The OP's character does use the Shadow Weave, but that's slightly different.)

And like I'd noted (see above for the OP's bit on it), all mitigation is limited to "half of it's [sic] original value". So the use of Agony can go far, but you'd need a lot of it.

[Brainpiercing]

Well, as I see it you can make Miracles available to all attuned creatures within, which is bad enough. Basically you don't need to make anything else available, Miracles will do fine. The CL is a bit low, only 17 (or I have to pay more), but hey, I'm not using them for offence. By strict RAW, there would not even be a cost attached, since somehow it never mentions either components or XP costs. OR whoever casts it has to pay the cost, which is still fine, because you can emulate so many spells.

I've gotten a first draft of the Mythal down, it's around a 119 remaining DC, 40000+ XP and about a million gold. In this campaign there is neither encounter XP nor encounter gold, and the DM has gotten stingy recently, so that's actually a very significant investment - over one level, and I can't buy anything, either. If we take down Halastar I assume we're in for another fat payoff, but we're not quite there yet. While it's nice to have infinite miracles in one place, I'm not sure it's worth the investment right now, especially since it's a stationary thing, and it won't solve the adventure for me.

(Actually, NeverGetDrunk..., I don't use the Shadow weave, YET! It's an option I'm thinking about. Shadowcrafter is pretty nice for a few bonus feats IF I want to use it, that's why I was mentioning it.)