Optimizing a Beguiler - Rainbow Servant!

[fun_at_funerals]

Hey guys, I'm require a bit of help optimizing this build for a Beguiler-Rainbow Servant.

The build is as follows:
Illuminian (Aesh-Krau) Beguiler 1 / Rainbow Servant 10 / Sacred Exorcist 1 / Contemplative 1 / (Non-Racist) Shadowcraft Mage 3 / 4X

Feats: Assumes 2 Flaws
ECL 1 (3) Precocious Apprentice and Improved Krau (Early Qualification for Rainbow Servant), Extend Spell
ECL 3 (1) Persistent
ECL 6 (1) DMM:Persistent
ECL 9 (1) Extra Turning
ECL 12 (1) Spell Focus: Illusion
ECL 15 (1) Heighten Spell
ECL 18 (1) Residual Metamagic

Bonus Domain from Contemplative: Either Spell or Trickery Domain.

The main consideration for the bonus domain from Contemplative is a question of which spell pays off more in the end: Draconic Polymorph (replicated via the Greater Anyspell Spell) or Polymorph Any Object (Trickery).

I'm tending towards Draconic Polymorph over POA. Transforming into something with monstrous strength, +8 Str from the spell, AeshKrau, and DMM Persist make for a huge number of bonus spells. If there were only a way to get Bite of the WereBear into the build's spell list for +16 Str. I can always get a +8 to Int from Necrotic Empowerment replicated and persisted through Miracle.

Cleric Spells granted by Rainbow Servant also grant me access to Planar Ally which is just awesome with Shadowcraft Mage. Planning on Planar Binding a Skurid (aka: Shadow Squirrel) (MM4) and casting a Persistent Planar Bubble on it. Grants me free Maximize Spell the whole day.

Other benefits are:
Turn Earth Creatures from Air Domain, Turn Undead, and Extra Turning for both make for a lot of fuel for DMM. Throw in a Night Stick for good measure and we're golden.

My main concerns are this:

(1) I don't feel as though I'm getting the most out of SCM due to the fact I can't perform the Miracle trick. Is there anyway to still be able to accomplish this with the current build?

(2) I've never really been fond of the Beguiler Spell List, and until I hit level 11, I'm going to be nothing but a Beguiler. I'm thinking of moving SCM down earlier but I can't decide whether delaying gaining access to the entire Cleric Spell List is worth the access to Wiz/Sorc Evoc/Conj spells. What do you think? Then again, would Mage of the Arcane Order be a better pick?

(3) What do you propose I fill the remaining 4 levels with?

(4) Any way to make this build less tight on feats?

[OblivionSmurf83]

No way of accomplishing the Miracle trick without having the Sor/Wiz spell list. Mind you, you do actually have Miracle, so it's not a complete loss.

One of the 'diviney' books (I think Complete Champion?) has a spell called "Domain Substitution", or "Domain Swap" or some such. Since the Domains you get as a Rainbow Servant are fairly lacklustre, you may as well use that spell to get rid of them, rather than branching into Contemplative. As the spell has a day/level duration, it's fine for most needs. This gives you another level in your build to play with.

From here, you would have 5 extra levels to play with. Incantatrix could be a good option. Alternatively, you could abuse the fact that you have both Arcane and Divine spells in the one class, and see about grabbing some sort of dual casting class to massively boost your character class.

Also, I'm not sure that Turning Earth creatures qualifies for DMM (Ie, Turn Undead and Extra Turning will, just not the turn attempts you get from Turning earth creatures)

[fun_at_funerals]

Good point on the Substitute Domain Spell. Completely forgot about that. I can get both Trickery and Spell.

I checked the rules for DMM and you're right. It only works for Turn Undead. However, I think using Greater Turning could legitimately fuel DMM. We can use that level of Contemplative to gain access to the Sun Domain and enter Radiant Servant of Pelor. That should give us [3+Cha Mod + 4 (Extra Turning)] x 2 points to burn on DMM. That's a lot of DMM.

Question, can I use the Substitute Domain spell to qualify for Radiant Servant of Pelor? The prestige class requires that I have access to the Sun Domain. Technically, I do have access to it because of the spell. Considering sawping Air, Law, and Good for Sun, Spell, and Undeath (for even more Turn attempts) and using Contemplative to gain the Planning Domain for Extend Spell to free up a feat for either Easy Metamagic: Heighten or Versatile Spellcaster.

[CantripN]

I think you could qualify with the spell, but you'd lost the class features once you lose the domain. As for the Greater Turning, it's up to your DM => RAW, the answer is a pure and simple no.

What would work, while cheesy, are Channel Incarnum / Divine Counterspell / Turn Energy / Rebuke Dragons / Turn Undead combined somehow. Not all work RAW, but some do stack as per RAW. At the very least, you could get 2 of them.

[OblivionSmurf83]

Doubt it, if only because you don't actually have the Domain in question, you're just 'borrowing' it for lack of a better word. Someone else on the boards may be able to answer this one better, as I'm sure it would come up for a lot of builds (I'm thinking things like using Chameleon to qualify for Incantatrix, or some such).

[fun_at_funerals]

What would work, while cheesy, are Channel Incarnum / Divine Counterspell / Turn Energy / Rebuke Dragons / Turn Undead combined somehow. Not all work RAW, but some do stack as per RAW. At the very least, you could get 2 of them.

Ooh, where can I find these?

I think you could qualify with the spell, but you'd lost the class features once you lose the domain. As for the Greater Turning, it's up to your DM => RAW, the answer is a pure and simple no.

RAW, yeah, probably wouldn't fly. But if we're strict with the RAW then it just ceases to make sense. Why is using a more potent form of the prerequisite ability not a legitimate fuel for an ability that requires less? It's not like we're trying to shove D cell batteries into a chamber built for AAA's. I'm pretty sure it'll fly if I reason it well enough.

I could just as easily enter RSoP through the bonus domain granted by Contemplative. What I was hoping for was to free up a feat by using the Planning Domain to gain a free Extend Spell. Is it legal to swap a feat granted by a domain for another if you already possess it?

Doubt it, if only because you don't actually have the Domain in question, you're just 'borrowing' it for lack of a better word. Someone else on the boards may be able to answer this one better, as I'm sure it would come up for a lot of builds (I'm thinking things like using Chameleon to qualify for Incantatrix, or some such).

Well, the text did just say you needed "Access".

[CantripN]

What would work, while cheesy, are Channel Incarnum / Divine Counterspell / Turn Energy / Rebuke Dragons / Turn Undead combined somehow. Not all work RAW, but some do stack as per RAW. At the very least, you could get 2 of them.

Ooh, where can I find these?

I think you could qualify with the spell, but you'd lost the class features once you lose the domain. As for the Greater Turning, it's up to your DM => RAW, the answer is a pure and simple no.

RAW, yeah, probably wouldn't fly. But if we're strict with the RAW then it just ceases to make sense. Why is using a more potent form of the prerequisite ability not a legitimate fuel for an ability that requires less? It's not like we're trying to shove D cell batteries into a chamber built for AAA's. I'm pretty sure it'll fly if I reason it well enough.

I could just as easily enter RSoP through the bonus domain granted by Contemplative. What I was hoping for was to free up a feat by using the Planning Domain to gain a free Extend Spell. Is it legal to swap a feat granted by a domain for another if you already possess it?

1 - Races of the Dragon, Magic of Incarnum, Complete Mage.

2 - Actually, by a more sane reading, the Greater Turning uses are not in addition to your regular ones, but rather serve to empower the ones you use up to that amount, which makes more sense. Each and every game I'd seen use it, anywhere, ruled it like that.

3 - You can't legally retrain that, no, but you could retrain your earlier feat, or ask your DM. I'd allow it free of charge.

[fun_at_funerals]

2 - Actually, by a more sane reading, the Greater Turning uses are not in addition to your regular ones, but rather serve to empower the ones you use up to that amount, which makes more sense. Each and every game I'd seen use it, anywhere, ruled it like that.

3 - You can't legally retrain that, no, but you could retrain your earlier feat, or ask your DM. I'd allow it free of charge.

2 - But the description states that your regular turning isn't replaced or that you have to option to perform a Greater turning in place of one of your regular turning uses. It specifically states that you are able to perform a Greater Turning a number of times equal to 3 + Cha Mod. That sounds like a separate turning ability all together.

3 - I suppose I could just negotiate that with him. I doesn't sound too unreasonable to upgrade the feat to Persistent Spell since we already have the prereq. Does it? If not, I can always replace it with Heighten Spell.

Oh, and I'd really like to hear your thoughts on the second question I posted in the OP

(2) I've never really been fond of the Beguiler Spell List, and until I hit level 11, I'm going to be nothing but a Beguiler. I'm thinking of moving SCM down earlier but I can't decide whether delaying gaining access to the entire Cleric Spell List is worth the access to Wiz/Sorc Evoc/Conj spells. What do you think? Then again, would Mage of the Arcane Order be a better pick?

[CantripN]

It really depends on what level you start, how fast do you advance, and WHY you don't like the Beguiler spell list. If it's because you're inoffensive, then just go with SCM and forget Rainbow Servant, as that won't help with that at all, and the benefits are very slow to come.

Options I see:
1 - Talk to your DM. See if you can get other domains instead of the 3 you get from RS. Try for Shadow as one of them, perhaps. Or maybe Blackwater, for Black Tentacles as a 3rd level spell. I'd allow this option. HERE. Spirit Domain might be fun, as could Destiny, Healing, Transformation and Warforged. And of course, there's Planning and Undeath.

2 - Make the same build on a Warmage or a Dread Necromancer base. DN would even grant Rebuke Undead, so I favor that one.

3 - Pick one or the other. Delaying one for the other isn't that amazing, but it really depends on what your campaign and playstyle are like.

4 - Unless you go with option 1, in which case you might consider delaying the Cleric Spell List for SCM and make do with your 1/2 domains for a while.

[fun_at_funerals]

It isn't that I'd rather be a blaster, it just that the spells don't seem to offer much BC-wise. Yeah you have some basic BC spells, like Solid Fog, as well as your basic buffs like Haste and Invisibility, not to mention Freedom of Movement, and Silent Image is always a gas to use, but other than that it doesn't have any of the gems on the Wiz/Sorc list, like Freezing Gaze or Ray of Stupidity. Not being able to gain the benefit of Advanced Learning makes it even worse. If I had access to more Enchantment, Illusion, and Divine Spells, I'd find this class much more appealing.

1 - I suppose I could negotiate with my DM to replace the Couatls with some other Outsider.

2 - I dislike the Warmage spell list even more than that of the Beguiler. Dread Necromancer seems like a good choice, Rebuke Undead would allow me to drop Sacred Exorcist and I would be able to persist spells sooner. But the DN spell list doesn't look particularly attractive either. What do you think?

3 - Probably going to stick with getting Cleric ASAP. They do have their fair share of BC spells.

I suppose I could manage earlier on with Substitute Domain to gain access to Domain spells that I particularly need. It is a 2nd Level spell after all so I can make use of it early.

[CantripN]

Personally, I'm on the fence between Beguiler and Dread Necromancer. I actually prefer the Beguiler Spell list, and think it's decent, but that's a matter of playstyle, as I said, and I'm not in favor of Necromancy and debuffs, while buffs and trickery are my strong suits. In any case, Dweomerkeeper is cool.

As a Beguiler, I had this idea:
Beguiler 1 / Rainbow Servant 10 / Nightcloak 7 / Nightmare Spinner 2 (Int to Saves is sexy)

As a Dread Necromacer:
Dread Necromancer 1 / Rainbow Servant 10 / Dweomerkeeper 9 (Supernatural Spells are even sexier)

Feats:
1st - Versatile Spellcaster
3rd - Grell Alchemy
6th - Extend Spell
9th - Persistant Spell
12th - DMM: Persistant Spell
15th - Initiate of Mystra
18th - Practiced Metamagic (Persistant Spell)

[fun_at_funerals]

Sadly, I do not possess the source material containing Dweomerkeeper or Nightcloak. What does one gain exactly through those prestige classes? Also, what does Grell Alchemy do?

[CantripN]

Sadly, I do not possess the source material containing Dweomerkeeper or Nightcloak. What does one gain exactly through those prestige classes? Also, what does Grell Alchemy do?

They're both free online, luckily! Here, in fact: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20040522a

As for Grell Alchemy: Here it is: http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Grell_Alchemy

You need Grell Alchemy for Dweomerkeepr since you need an Item Creation feat, and this is the only one that has use besides that, and a decent use, no less. You could take Craft Wondrous Item, instead.

[Unbeliever]

It isn't that I'd rather be a blaster, it just that the spells don't seem to offer much BC-wise. Yeah you have some basic BC spells, like Solid Fog, as well as your basic buffs like Haste and Invisibility, not to mention Freedom of Movement, and Silent Image is always a gas to use, but other than that it doesn't have any of the gems on the Wiz/Sorc list, like Freezing Gaze or Ray of Stupidity. Not being able to gain the benefit of Advanced Learning makes it even worse. If I had access to more Enchantment, Illusion, and Divine Spells, I'd find this class much more appealing.

A friend of mine who is into the trickster thing played a straight beguiler w/ the de rigeur dip into mindbender to great effect.  He was able to jack his DCs really high, which meant that more like than not the "save or suck" spells had great effect.  Also, he used Illusory Pit as an awesome form of BC -- seriously, it effectively ended several fights.  He also made very effective use of the Stay the Hand type spells:  often the baddies would go to do something useful and find their tactics ruined by his meddling.  

All that requires a fair number of opponents that are vulnerable to your beguiling.  He had a runestaff and UMD to compensate for the rest, but those fights were not his strong suit.  We had a small party -- 3 PCs and only 1 melee fighter.  This meant that the more targeted spells that a beguiler has access to had more impact and also that a single target buff like Displacement worked quite well.  YMMV.  

At the least, though, I would talk to the GM about putting other thematically-appropriate spells on your list.  If he has no problem w/ a wizard casting Freezing Glance (and, he wouldn't be crazy to) or Ray of Stupidity (which he's sort of stuck w/ IMHO), then he shouldn't object to a Beguiler doing so.  I find it silly to discourage all the thematic spellcaster just b/c D&D didn't do a great job updating their lists.  

[fun_at_funerals]

They're both free online, luckily! Here, in fact: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20040522a

As for Grell Alchemy: Here it is: http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Grell_Alchemy

You need Grell Alchemy for Dweomerkeepr since you need an Item Creation feat, and this is the only one that has use besides that, and a decent use, no less. You could take Craft Wondrous Item, instead.

Wasn't particularly impressed by the Nightcloak. Plus, RS's alignment issues kinda closed the door on it. Int to saves is pretty good, but spontaneously casting evoc and conj spells and effectively multiplying my higher level spell slots kinda seemed the better way to go.

Still curious about Dweomerkeeper. Everyone keeps talking about it but I've never had a chance to look over it.

@Unbeliever: I agree. Still, I feel a tad uncomfortable asking for special rules to be made. I mean, it's alright to switch around the domains of the Radiant Servant since the rules do make room for adaptation, allowing you the option of choosing other outsiders, but there was no such provision made for the Beguiler. The Advanced Learning class feature actually discourages this since the Beguiler does have a built in option to expand its spell list, it's just that I won't be able to make use of it due to the build.

Illusory Pit doesn't seem to be on the Beguiler list. *Sigh*

[fun_at_funerals]

Alternatively, how does this Gish sound? Been reading a bunch of threads on Sword of the Arcane Order + Battle Blessing and thought I'd give it a shot.

Dread Necromancer 1/Rainbow Servant 8/Prestige Paladin 1/Rainbow Servant +2/Contemplative 1/Ordained Champion 3/Radiant Servant of Pelor 1/Geomancer 2
ECL 1 (3) Precocious Apprentice, Improved Krau, Extend Spell
ECL 3 (1)
ECL 6 (1) 
ECL 9 (1) Battle Blessing
ECL 12 (1) Sword of the Arcane Order
ECL 14 (4) (from trading Air, Sun, Law, and Good Domain Powers for fighter feats)
ECL 15 (1)
ECL 18 (1)

I'm not entirely certain as people have been giving various readings of the rules so please correct me if I'm wrong here:
- Prestige Paladin adds all Paladin Spells to our spells known and basically makes our Dread Necromancer spellslots count as Paladin spellslots since. Therefore,  we can prepare wizard spells in them.
- SotAO basically gives me the ability to learn any Wizard spells, allowing me access to a spell list previously closed to me.

Questions:
1. How does Battle Blessing interact with my DN and Wizard spells? Do they all count as Paladin Spells and hence benefit from the feat?
2. How will the Substitute Domain spell interact with the Combat-Feat-Domain-Power trade class feature of Ordained Champion? Will I gain the domain powers of the domains I switch to via this spell?

[The_Mad_Linguist]

If you're a dread necromancer, be a necropolitan, and have a free taint feat of "eltritch corruption", which gives early qualification without Precocious or Improved sigil.  You NEEEEEED versatile spellcaster.

[fun_at_funerals]

Ooh, good point. Did not know that. That'll allow me to be human and gain another bonus feat.

Necropolitan (Human Base) Dread Necromancer 1/Rainbow Servant 8/Prestige Paladin 1/Rainbow Servant +2/Contemplative 1/Ordained Champion 3/Radiant Servant of Pelor 1/Geomancer 2
ECL 1 (4) Eldritch Corruption, Heighten Spell, Versatile Spellcaster, X
ECL 3 (1) X
ECL 6 (1) X
ECL 9 (1) Battle Blessing
ECL 12 (1) Sword of the Arcane Order
ECL 14 (4) (from trading Air, Sun, Law, and Good Domain Powers for fighter feats)
ECL 15 (1) X
ECL 18 (1) X

[The_Mad_Linguist]

Eldritch corruption renders heighten spell completely pointless.

You still need a metamagic to qualify for it, though.

May I recommend "fell energy spell"?

[fun_at_funerals]

Oh yeah, you're right. More room to play around in then.

Anyway, returning to the original build, I was able to work things out with my DM and we came to these resolutions.

1) We've agreed to adapt the Rainbow Servant class to worship another outsider: a Solar. Doing so, we've changed the bonus Domains to the following: Sun, Air, and Good. We've renamed the class to the Radiant Servant.
2) I am allowed to trade spells on the existing Beguiler spell list for spells on the Sorc/Wiz list provided that (1) the number of spells I replace per spell level does not exceed 2/3 of the total number of spells listed for that level, (2) the substitute spell must match the substituted spell in both level and school, and (3) I can only swap spells of the Illusion, Enchantment, or Divination school.

These game birth to the following build: The Black Sun

Name: Kiaroskuro Brightshadow  (the name is Greek for "Interplay of Light and Shadow")
Stats: Str 8, Dex 12, Con 12, Int 18, Cha 17, Wis 11
Illuminian (Aesh-Krau) Beguiler 1 / Rainbow Servant 10 / Contemplative 1 (Planning Domain) / (Non-Racist) Shadowcraft Mage 3 / Sacred Exorcist 1 / Radiant Servant of Pelor 1 / Mindbender 1 / SCM 2 /

Feats: Assumes 2 Flaws
ECL 1 (3) Precocious Apprentice, and Improved Krau (Early Qualification for Rainbow Servant), Extend Spell (Retrained to Heighten Spell at ECL 12)
ECL 3 (1) Persistent Spell
ECL 6 (1) Versatile Spellcaster
ECL 9 (1) Residual Metamagic
ECL 12 (2) Spell Focus: Illusion, Extend Spell
ECL 15 (1) DMM:Persistent (Delayed until 16th level)
ECL 18 (1) Extra Turning

Build Benefits:
- Extremely versatile and powerful spontaneous casting capable of responding to almost any situation or demand on the fly:
---- Capable of spontaneously casting any spell from the Cleric spell list by ECL 11
---- Capable of spontaneously casting Shadow Evocation or Shadow Conjuration and mimicking any Soc/Wiz Evocation, Conjuration (Creation and Summoning) spell of the appropriate spell level by ECL 15.
---- Potent Shadow spells (mimicked spell's level + 30% quasireality)
---- Shadow spells extended by default
---- Multiple ways of multiplying higher level spell slots (Versatile Spellcaster + Residual Metamagic)
- Illuminian Aeshkrau Power Word allows us to use Str instead of Int to determine bonus spells. Great with some Draconic Polymorphing
- +2 Racial bonus on saves against Shadow spells
- Great spell Persisting capabilities by ECL 16 and peaks at ECL 17 with Greater Turning (gains even more Turn Undead attempts through Night Sticks and swapping Air and Good Domain for Undeath and Charm via the Substitute Domain spell)
- Telepathy and Read Thoughts at will
- Radiance: Light spells cast at +1 spell level and offer twice the illumination
- Cloak of Shadows offer 40% concealment
- Immune to all diseases
- Has wings and limited flight capability with good maneuverability
- Pretty damn sexy thematically (glowing power sigil + cloak of darkness = cool)  

Tricks:
1. Planar Bind a Skurid (CR 1/2 Native of the Plane of Shadow) into my service and cast Planar Bubble on it for free maximization and +10% quasireality on Shadow Evocation and Shadow Conjuration
2. Switch any current domain to the Spell Domain via Substitute Domain and use Greater Anyspell to replicate Draconic Polymorph and morph into anything with high Str and then persist it. The selected form, the +8 Str from the spell, and the Aeshkrau Power Word will allow for a good number of bonus spell slots. When 9th level spells are accessible, use Miracle to replicate and persist Bite of the Werebear for a +16 enchantment bonus to Str for even more bonus spells!

Concerns:
I'd like to retrain Precocious Apprentice into something else a little more useful. Legally, I can since the rules for retraining a feat only require that the choice for the substitute feat should be one that I could have legally made that the level that I acquired the feat to be substituted. However, I'm wondering what effect this will have on the rest of the build considering the fact that I used Precocious Apprentice to merit early entry into Rainbow Servant.

Anyway. Critiques? Constructive criticism, anyone?

Also, I'd like to lower my dependence on the Substitute Domain spell to gain access to other powers. I was wondering if you guys could suggest any Outsider that, thematically, would allow me access to the Sun (To quality for Radiant Servant of Pelor), Spell (Needed for Greater Anyspell to replicate Draconic Polymorph), Planning (For the free Extend Spell), and/or Undeath (for Extra Turning) domains? Sun and Planning are the domains that are a real must and essential for the build. Undeath and Anyspell would be nice but not quite as necessary. Really can't imagine anything besides a Solar. The Sun domain fits and I guess Planning is a good substitute for Law I suppose. Getting planning through Rainbow Servant would obviate the need to take Contemplative and allow me to get other class features (specifically, Turn Undead or Shadow Illusion) sooner.