Author Topic: I want Charisma but dislike Sorcerers. How do I optimize this?  (Read 4151 times)

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Endarire

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I want Charisma but dislike Sorcerers. How do I optimize this?
« on: November 17, 2009, 05:49:39 PM »
Intro
Charisma intrigues me.  With the proper abilities, CHA can replace any other stat.  On its own, CHA is weak.

I'd prefer to be the party's face, a supporter, and a combatant.  Spells are a secondary thing for me, though I'll take them if it's convenient.

I've read Inspire Courage Optimization (and its ENWorld version) and being a drummer- possibly using my elbows to play while whacking foes- interests me.  Complete Adventurer has info on masterwork instruments.

I'm considering Marshal and Warblade

Sample Build
Human Bard2/Warblade1/Cleric1/Bard+1/Barbarian1/Uhh...

1: Improved Initiative, [Inspire Courage +1], Lingering Song, Melodic Casting, -=FEAT=-
3: Song of the White Raven
6: Song of the Heart?

Notes
-All material is available, pending DM approval.
-No favored classes or multiclass penalties.
-32 point buy
-We start from ECL1.  I wish to be viable from levels 1 onward.
-Evil-only builds are probably a no-go.
Hood - My first answer to all your build questions; past, present, and future.

Speaking of which:
Don't even need TO for this.  Any decent Hood build, especially one with Celerity, one-rounds [Azathoth, the most powerful greater deity from d20 Cthulu].
Does it bug anyone else that we've reached the point where characters who can obliterate a greater deity in one round are considered "decent?"

Rebel7284

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Re: I want Charisma but dislike Sorcerers. How do I optimize this?
« Reply #1 on: November 17, 2009, 06:06:11 PM »
Finishing with more Warblade is probably good.
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JaronK

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Re: I want Charisma but dislike Sorcerers. How do I optimize this?
« Reply #2 on: November 17, 2009, 06:12:14 PM »
If you want to fight in melee with Charisma and no spells, Iajuitsu Master is your friend.  Accept no substitutes.

JaronK

Alastar

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Re: I want Charisma but dislike Sorcerers. How do I optimize this?
« Reply #3 on: November 17, 2009, 06:13:40 PM »
Finishing with more Warblade is probably good.

Also

More Cowbell

ninjarabbit

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Re: I want Charisma but dislike Sorcerers. How do I optimize this?
« Reply #4 on: November 17, 2009, 06:47:15 PM »
I've been digging the Wilder lately, specifically the educated wilder which gives you more expanded knowledges. It can tank with the vigor/share pain/psicrystal combo and is an excellent blaster with wild surge and psionic shot with energy ray being able to do 4d6 damage at level 1
« Last Edit: November 17, 2009, 06:49:26 PM by ninjarabbit »

PhaedrusXY

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Re: I want Charisma but dislike Sorcerers. How do I optimize this?
« Reply #5 on: November 17, 2009, 08:10:47 PM »
BINDER!!!111!!  :D Slap a half-fey or phrenic template on it for awesomeness.
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: I want Charisma but dislike Sorcerers. How do I optimize this?
« Reply #6 on: November 17, 2009, 08:17:29 PM »
Ghost Savage Progression.


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Balmas

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Re: I want Charisma but dislike Sorcerers. How do I optimize this?
« Reply #7 on: November 17, 2009, 08:29:49 PM »
If you want to get the most out of your charisma, consider replacing warblade with Crusader.
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Arz

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Re: I want Charisma but dislike Sorcerers. How do I optimize this?
« Reply #8 on: November 18, 2009, 12:43:28 PM »
Every lvl of non-bard takes away from inspire courage/heroism. Don't sack your primary for your secondary role. Inspiring bards can easily go 4rounds of song/spell action before touching a weapon actively.

Prime32

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Re: I want Charisma but dislike Sorcerers. How do I optimize this?
« Reply #9 on: November 18, 2009, 01:13:14 PM »
See if you can get these feats approved - they make druids Cha-based. One of them doubles the effects of your bardic music on your animal companion.

Play a druid/prestige paladin of slaughter (or any version of paladin that can be neutral and thus multiclass with druid) and take the variant which trades detect evil for Inspire Courage. Now take the Devoted Tracker, Fey Blood, Leader of the Pack and Leadership feats and designate your cohort as your special mount (which is also your animal companion) for +2 LADMG. Let the good times roll. :D

Heck, this build could designate a human as its animal companion then turn into a mount for it to ride. :p
« Last Edit: November 18, 2009, 02:00:39 PM by Prime32 »
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The tier system in a nutshell:
[spoiler]Tier 6: A cartographer.
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Tier 3: An expert marksman, cartographer and chef who can tie strong knots and is trained in hostage negotiation or a marksman so good he can shoot down every bullet fired by a minigun while armed with a rusted single-shot pistol that veers to the left.
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PlzBreakMyCampaign

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Re: I want Charisma but dislike Sorcerers. How do I optimize this?
« Reply #10 on: November 18, 2009, 01:14:10 PM »
Carnivore isn't here anymore, so I'll do it:

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An interesting read, nice to see a civil discussion
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PhaedrusXY

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Re: I want Charisma but dislike Sorcerers. How do I optimize this?
« Reply #11 on: November 18, 2009, 01:41:12 PM »
Every lvl of non-bard takes away from inspire courage/heroism. Don't sack your primary for your secondary role. Inspiring bards can easily go 4rounds of song/spell action before touching a weapon actively.
I see it rather differently.... You have to sink 8 levels into Bard to get to a +2 bonus on Inspire Courage. It just isn't worth it in most cases.

However, even with 1 level of bard, you get Inspire Courage +1, which you can boost with magic items, spells, and feats. And you can take the Extra Music feat to get more uses of it. And there are ways to even continue your Inspire Courage progression and get more uses of it via PrCs and feats. So I see very little reason to take more than the barest minimum of bard levels, even in a build that focuses quite a bit on Inspire Courage.

I might go to 4th to get a few more spell slots for the spell that adds a +1 to it whose name I forget, but I wouldn't even put that as a priority. A wand of that would cost 750 gp and also be a swift action to use, and you could stick it in a wand chamber.
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

zavule

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Re: I want Charisma but dislike Sorcerers. How do I optimize this?
« Reply #12 on: November 18, 2009, 02:18:08 PM »
Damn, you took the words out of my mouth.  Either that or try hexblade 3 paladin of tyranny 2 occult slayer 5 witch slayer 5 for crazy awesome caster killing fun time.  You get charisma to your saves, charisma to your saves again (against arcane spells), mettle and more!

BINDER!!!111!!  :D Slap a half-fey or phrenic template on it for awesomeness.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2009, 10:34:25 PM by zavule »
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Arz

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Re: I want Charisma but dislike Sorcerers. How do I optimize this?
« Reply #13 on: November 18, 2009, 02:28:24 PM »
Every lvl of non-bard takes away from inspire courage/heroism. Don't sack your primary for your secondary role. Inspiring bards can easily go 4rounds of song/spell action before touching a weapon actively.
I see it rather differently.... You have to sink 8 levels into Bard to get to a +2 bonus on Inspire Courage. It just isn't worth it in most cases.

However, even with 1 level of bard, you get Inspire Courage +1, which you can boost with magic items, spells, and feats. And you can take the Extra Music feat to get more uses of it. And there are ways to even continue your Inspire Courage progression and get more uses of it via PrCs and feats. So I see very little reason to take more than the barest minimum of bard levels, even in a build that focuses quite a bit on Inspire Courage.

I might go to 4th to get a few more spell slots for the spell that adds a +1 to it whose name I forget, but I wouldn't even put that as a priority. A wand of that would cost 750 gp and also be a swift action to use, and you could stick it in a wand chamber.

Bards are like alcoholics, they can't fall off the wagon.

Yeah 8 lvls are harsh but they do turn the corner at 9th and start making ground again. As you mention you do get spells and other songs along the way. Unfortunately, if you want inspire courage there is no better way than bard.

Above you'll note lvls of cleric and barbarian that are not useful for buffing; marshal or crusader might be better. Also melodic casting is iffy for only dipping bard.

Alastar

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Re: I want Charisma but dislike Sorcerers. How do I optimize this?
« Reply #14 on: November 18, 2009, 02:34:00 PM »
I present to you a fully functionnal bard build that has 2 levels of bard!

Bard 2/Paladin 4/Crusader 14

TADA!!

Take song of the white raven and devoted performer, and you have LOTS of charisma synergy, level 9 maneuvers, and inspire courage +5.

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Re: I want Charisma but dislike Sorcerers. How do I optimize this?
« Reply #15 on: November 18, 2009, 02:35:47 PM »
And some fun with Divine Might among other things :)
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Re: I want Charisma but dislike Sorcerers. How do I optimize this?
« Reply #16 on: November 18, 2009, 11:20:00 PM »
I would advise at least 3 levels of Bard, for Song of the Heart.

Bard 6/Crusader14.  With a Vest of legends and a masterwork Lute, you have the IC of a 26th level bard, or +5.  (WoC doubles this to 10, but it's frequently banninated)  Song of the Heart at level 3 adds +1, as does the Inspirational Boost spell.  Heroes badge gives another +1.  This gives you IC+8.  And you have smite too.  Yous shouldn't miss very often.

altpersona

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Re: I want Charisma but dislike Sorcerers. How do I optimize this?
« Reply #17 on: November 19, 2009, 02:32:13 AM »
[spoiler]where did carnivore go?[/spoiler]
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awaken DM golem

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Re: I want Charisma but dislike Sorcerers. How do I optimize this?
« Reply #18 on: November 20, 2009, 05:53:05 PM »
Yeah, HEY !!


Carnivore isn't here anymore ...


What ?!

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I'll 2nd the Phrenic ... you could go Wilder and be "almost" not a spellcaster.

PhaedrusXY

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Re: I want Charisma but dislike Sorcerers. How do I optimize this?
« Reply #19 on: November 20, 2009, 06:46:21 PM »
Where in the world is Carni Vore?
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]