Author Topic: Musings on the Factotem...  (Read 5875 times)

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KellKheraptis

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Musings on the Factotem...
« on: November 05, 2009, 06:46:05 PM »
What is the exact wording on the capstone ability (the one that lets you emulate any class feature of any class)?  Is it strictly base classes, or can PrC abilities be mimicked as well?  And also, is it only 1 min/day?  Would save a lot of the run around of making a feasible 9's Chameleon (without using homebrew that is) if it could mimic more than just base classes.
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Re: Musings on the Factotem...
« Reply #1 on: November 05, 2009, 06:49:00 PM »
Base classes only

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Re: Musings on the Factotem...
« Reply #2 on: November 05, 2009, 06:52:33 PM »
Base classes only

+1 it would have said prestige class, if it worked on them

KellKheraptis

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Re: Musings on the Factotem...
« Reply #3 on: November 05, 2009, 06:54:47 PM »
Base classes only

Ok, then going off of that, is there a way to extend the capability?  Through Sanctum Spell/Power, we can get 9th level capability.  If we're considered a 15th level initiator but have 20 levels of Factotem, our IL is 25, meaning 9th level maneuvers too.  There's gotta be some way to make that kind of versatility and raw power last longer than 10 combat rounds :P

Also, does it explicitly say "base classes" or does it say "classes?"  Remember, I'm the Black Hat guy everyone hates around here  :lmao
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JaronK

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Re: Musings on the Factotem...
« Reply #4 on: November 05, 2009, 07:03:29 PM »
What is the exact wording on the capstone ability (the one that lets you emulate any class feature of any class)?  Is it strictly base classes, or can PrC abilities be mimicked as well?  And also, is it only 1 min/day?  Would save a lot of the run around of making a feasible 9's Chameleon (without using homebrew that is) if it could mimic more than just base classes.

It says "standard character class" which in the DMG and PHBII at least is synonymous with base class.  So it's just base classes.  With that said, because spellcasting really is extraordinary, and it works for any one ability, options like "A Fighter's Bonus Feats" and "A Sorcerer's Spellcasting" and "A Warblade's Manuevers" become quite reasonable.  Wizard casting isn't, because you don't have time to memorize spells.  Still, it's a PLENTY powerful ability, and if you want the effects to last a while, why not just get Shapechange (from Sorcerer casting), cast that, shapechange into a Solar, and have Cleric casting for a good long time?  Feel free to cast other long duration buffs while you've still got the Sorcerer casting. 

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Re: Musings on the Factotem...
« Reply #5 on: November 05, 2009, 07:06:11 PM »
Spellcasting is (Ex)? Where does it say this?

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Re: Musings on the Factotem...
« Reply #6 on: November 05, 2009, 07:09:22 PM »
What is the exact wording on the capstone ability (the one that lets you emulate any class feature of any class)?  Is it strictly base classes, or can PrC abilities be mimicked as well?  And also, is it only 1 min/day?  Would save a lot of the run around of making a feasible 9's Chameleon (without using homebrew that is) if it could mimic more than just base classes.

It says "standard character class" which in the DMG and PHBII at least is synonymous with base class.  So it's just base classes.  With that said, because spellcasting really is extraordinary, and it works for any one ability, options like "A Fighter's Bonus Feats" and "A Sorcerer's Spellcasting" and "A Warblade's Manuevers" become quite reasonable.  Wizard casting isn't, because you don't have time to memorize spells.  Still, it's a PLENTY powerful ability, and if you want the effects to last a while, why not just get Shapechange (from Sorcerer casting), cast that, shapechange into a Solar, and have Cleric casting for a good long time?  Feel free to cast other long duration buffs while you've still got the Sorcerer casting.  

JaronK

So a factotum can use the ability *is actually a cleric* 1/day?  Nifty.

I remembered someone recommended using the Knight's "does not die ability"

Also, it's an ability granted before level 15, but you're considered your factotum level for the purposes of using it.  So you could get 11 bonus fighter feats.  For silly-ness, make at least of of those extra action points, so you can use this ability again.

I wonder if you can use this to get ACF powers?

Spellcasting is (Ex)? Where does it say this?

nowhere, which is the point, IIRC. If it's not listed as SLA or Su, it's Ex.

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Re: Musings on the Factotem...
« Reply #7 on: November 05, 2009, 07:10:22 PM »
Spellcasting is (Ex)? Where does it say this?

MMV, for one.  But also page 180 of the PHB makes it clear that spellcasting is neither Spell Like nor Supernatural, leaving only Natural or Extraordinary as options (since anything that's not Sp, Su, or Ex is Natural).  And natural abilities are innate to the person, so they're not given as class abilities.  End result: class based casting has to be Ex (though I would have said Solar casting is Natural, until I saw the MMV reference).  All that logic of course became unneccesary when MMV outright said it though.

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KellKheraptis

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Re: Musings on the Factotem...
« Reply #8 on: November 05, 2009, 07:11:55 PM »
What is the exact wording on the capstone ability (the one that lets you emulate any class feature of any class)?  Is it strictly base classes, or can PrC abilities be mimicked as well?  And also, is it only 1 min/day?  Would save a lot of the run around of making a feasible 9's Chameleon (without using homebrew that is) if it could mimic more than just base classes.

It says "standard character class" which in the DMG and PHBII at least is synonymous with base class.  So it's just base classes.  With that said, because spellcasting really is extraordinary, and it works for any one ability, options like "A Fighter's Bonus Feats" and "A Sorcerer's Spellcasting" and "A Warblade's Manuevers" become quite reasonable.  Wizard casting isn't, because you don't have time to memorize spells.  Still, it's a PLENTY powerful ability, and if you want the effects to last a while, why not just get Shapechange (from Sorcerer casting), cast that, shapechange into a Solar, and have Cleric casting for a good long time?  Feel free to cast other long duration buffs while you've still got the Sorcerer casting.  

JaronK

I'd thought about that as well, given the sheer number of available critters with spellcasting.  The ultimate purpose of this thread is creating the devil-lord of versatility (to quote Doc Rock), being capably proficient in all manner of magic and combat if at all possible.  Ultimately, if I could replicate Maneuvers with Psionics, I can emulate/utilize the other two major magic systems with spells/powers (Incarnum and Binding), thus giving access to all of them with a Spell to Power erudite (who once he's learned all his spells he wants/needs, switches his choice to mantled erudite and snags all powers as well).  Is there any precedent at all for maneuvers as spells or powers, other than Arcane Swordsage (which is fishy at best)?

Quote from: Operation Shoestring
So a factotum can use the ability *is actually a cleric* 1/day?  Nifty.

I remembered someone recommended using the Knight's "does not die ability"

Also, it's an ability granted before level 15, but you're considered your factotum level for the purposes of using it.  So you could get 11 bonus fighter feats.  For silly-ness, make at least of of those extra action points, so you can use this ability again.

I wonder if you can use this to get ACF powers?

Action points as in there's a way to re-use 1/day class abilities with action points?
« Last Edit: November 05, 2009, 07:15:16 PM by KellKheraptis »
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awaken DM golem

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Re: Musings on the Factotem...
« Reply #9 on: November 05, 2009, 07:13:37 PM »
Supporting this, is the Polymorph fix-o that allowed in a Monsters spell casting ability, so long as it wasn't (su) or (sp).

JaronK

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Re: Musings on the Factotem...
« Reply #10 on: November 05, 2009, 07:14:36 PM »
So a factotum can use the ability *is actually a cleric* 1/day?  Nifty.

Pretty much.  Sorcerer and Favored Soul casting is better than Wizard/Cleric casting when you get to chose your spells right them anyway.  But the Solar casting thing is awesome, since that lasts a good long time.

Quote
Also, it's an ability granted before level 15, but you're considered your factotum level for the purposes of using it.  So you could get 11 bonus fighter feats.  

Bingo.  Really nasty when combined with a poison based factotum build... all of a sudden your archery abilities go through the roof while your poison abilities destroy everything.  That only works against non immune targets of course (a big issue at this level), but a poison Factotum probably has a decent bow by this level anyway (Assassination and Splitting being obvious) so they can just deal out a heck of a lot of damage.

Quote
I wonder if you can use this to get ACF powers?

Not sure really.  I suppose you could, but "Standard Character Class" is not a well defined term... it's just used interchangeably with base class.  So probably, but there's no gaurentee (Lion Totem Pounce + Fighter Bonus Feats would be fun though!).

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Re: Musings on the Factotem...
« Reply #11 on: November 05, 2009, 07:17:36 PM »
Action points as in there's a way to re-use 1/day class abilities with action points?
Yeah. At least, if you're using UA action points rather than Eberron action points.
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Re: Musings on the Factotem...
« Reply #12 on: November 05, 2009, 07:19:51 PM »
Action points as in there's a way to re-use 1/day class abilities with action points?
Yeah. At least, if you're using UA action points rather than Eberron action points.
Do you remember the name of the feat/spell that give extra action points?

KellKheraptis

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Re: Musings on the Factotem...
« Reply #13 on: November 05, 2009, 07:22:27 PM »
Action points as in there's a way to re-use 1/day class abilities with action points?
Yeah. At least, if you're using UA action points rather than Eberron action points.

Hmm...did the Eberron ones mention UA at all (as in was it a "in addition to UA, here we use these here monstrosity broken abilities with AP's!")?  Also, I know of ways of getting temporary action points, so if either has a means of utilizing more than 1/day use of the emulation ability, I'm all ears.  I could see this dude going from super versatile to OMG WTF PWNZORZ once he's dumped a few spells/SLA's out in the morning, if the AP mechanic is there.

Operation Shoestring, it's in my Ultimate Mage thread, so it's not far away.  I wanna say Uncanny Heroism or somesuch?
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Re: Musings on the Factotem...
« Reply #14 on: November 05, 2009, 07:28:18 PM »
Action points as in there's a way to re-use 1/day class abilities with action points?
Yeah. At least, if you're using UA action points rather than Eberron action points.

Hmm...did the Eberron ones mention UA at all (as in was it a "in addition to UA, here we use these here monstrosity broken abilities with AP's!")?  Also, I know of ways of getting temporary action points, so if either has a means of utilizing more than 1/day use of the emulation ability, I'm all ears.  I could see this dude going from super versatile to OMG WTF PWNZORZ once he's dumped a few spells/SLA's out in the morning, if the AP mechanic is there.
Nope, Eberron APs don't have the UA borkedness.
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KellKheraptis

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Re: Musings on the Factotem...
« Reply #15 on: November 05, 2009, 07:35:44 PM »
Action points as in there's a way to re-use 1/day class abilities with action points?
Yeah. At least, if you're using UA action points rather than Eberron action points.

Hmm...did the Eberron ones mention UA at all (as in was it a "in addition to UA, here we use these here monstrosity broken abilities with AP's!")?  Also, I know of ways of getting temporary action points, so if either has a means of utilizing more than 1/day use of the emulation ability, I'm all ears.  I could see this dude going from super versatile to OMG WTF PWNZORZ once he's dumped a few spells/SLA's out in the morning, if the AP mechanic is there.
Nope, Eberron APs don't have the UA borkedness.

Well, regardless, in any game that uses both...I pity a DM that pisses off the Factotem player now...

-next day- Ok, gonna use an SLA to get infinite uses of my emulation, and emulate ALL BASE CLASSES.  Now we'll psyref all those useless feats into something nasty, and enjoy my upteen spell lists.  And since I can stop time at will and my lists will be refreshed every 60 seconds, I can blow spell slots as desired with 0 care of the consequences.  Muahahaha, Black Hatter strikes again! /endrant

PS : Yes, I'll admit it...I look for shit like this, just to see if I can do it.  I'd only ever take the kid gloves off like that though if the DM was a real pratt.
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Re: Musings on the Factotem...
« Reply #16 on: November 05, 2009, 08:01:47 PM »
what was your breakdown to get 25 IL?
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KellKheraptis

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Re: Musings on the Factotem...
« Reply #17 on: November 05, 2009, 08:06:01 PM »
what was your breakdown to get 25 IL?

15 Emulating a level 15 initiator, +1/2 class levels (which is 10 at level 20).
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KellKheraptis

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Re: Musings on the Factotem...
« Reply #18 on: November 05, 2009, 08:29:10 PM »
Hate double posting, but this is big...the action point combo doesn't just break the Factotem.  Use an action point from your spell giving you temp ones to activate a class ability, namely a unique power per level per day (and even more important if it's power per day, not following the text).  Goodbye restrictions on powers for erudites!  Action point game = no disputing Tier 1 status of Erudites.
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Re: Musings on the Factotem...
« Reply #19 on: November 05, 2009, 09:03:24 PM »
15 Emulating a level 15 initiator, +1/2 class levels (which is 10 at level 20).

Won't work.  You'll just treat your Factotum levels as Warblade levels for purposes of this (because you now have the ability) so you're just an IL 19 or 20 Warblade for purposes of manuevers.  That's it.  Still solid, of course.

As to Action Points, I'm pretty sure the UA and Eberron action point systems are independent of each other, so I don't think you can use them together.  I could be wrong though.

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