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kobo1d

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Shadowcraft Oracle: Any suggestions?
« on: November 02, 2009, 03:36:59 AM »
Hello all, wizards board's refugee looking for any ideas to improve my character for an evil game. The basic concept is an insane, illusionist/diviner who believes he is in fact a fallen god. Perception is reality, and his abilities as a god are as real as the illusions he can make (so not really at all). "I'm a GOD! (Will save to disbelieve)" I liked the divination part too, because it seems pretty divine to me, seeing the future/knowing everything/etc.

Looking into ways to optimize this idea, I noticed a few things. Using Pathfinder (which we're using), cantrips are at will. Gnome substitution level (from Races of Stone) makes Silent Image a cantrip. Silent Image at will is pure awesome. Then I figure, if I'm going to be a gnome illusionist already, might as well make a killer gnome, right? The divination aspect was pretty easy to add to the concept too: Divine Oracle prestige class (Complete Divine) + Spontaneous Divination (Complete Champion). Seems like a pretty solid megalomaniac to me! Let's get to the detailed crunch.

Here's the current version:
[spoiler]

Nindo Shadowseer
Middle Aged Gnome
Stats at 4th:
[spoiler]Str 6, Dex 12, Con 16, Int 21, Wis 13, Cha 10   (Pathfinder Point Buy (20))[/spoiler]

Magic Items at 4th:
[spoiler]Headband of Vast Intelligence +2
Handy Haversack
Cloak of Resistance +1
[/spoiler]

Proposed Level/Feat Progression: (+Terrible formatting)
[spoiler]
Illusionist 1-----------Spell Focus (Illusion), Improved Initiative-----Chains of Disbelief, Gnome Substitution Level (Transmutation), Focused Specialist (Enchantment, Evocation, Necromancy), Combat Feat Wizard
Illusionist 2      
Illusionist 3-----------Craft Wondrous Items   
Illusionist 4-----------Skill Focus (Knowledge (Religion))------------Magical Location (Fane of the Frog God)
Illusionist 5-----------Heighten Spell------------------------------Spontaneous Divination
Divine Oracle 1---------------------------------------------------Oracle Domain, Scry Bonus
Divine Oracle 2-------Earth Sense---------------------------------Prescient Sense, Trap Sense +1
Shadowcraft Mage 1----------------------------------------------Cloak of Shadow
Shadowcraft Mage 2--Earth Spell----------------------------------Silent Illusion
Shadowcraft Mage 3----------------------------------------------Shadow Illusion
Shadowcraft Mage 4--Residual Magic------------------------------Extended Illusion
Shadowcraft Mage 5----------------------------------------------Powerful Shadow Magic
Divine Oracle 3-------Greater Spell Focus (Illusion)-----------------Divination Enhancement
Divine Oracle 4---------------------------------------------------Uncanny Dodge
Divine Oracle 5-------Arcane Mastery-----------------------------Trap Sense +2
Divine Oracle 6---------------------------------------------------Improved Uncanny Dodge
Divine Oracle 7-------Arcane Disciple (Luck)   
Divine Oracle 8---------------------------------------------------Trap Sense +3
Divine Oracle 9-------Quicken Spell   
Divine Oracle 10--------------------------------------------------Immune to Surprise

[/spoiler]

Spellbook at 4th:
[spoiler]Level 0:
All PHB Level 0 Spells
Unnerving Gaze
Silent Image
Ventriloquism

Level 1:
Karmic Aura
Mage Armor
Color Spray
Minor Image
Comprehend Languages
Detect Secret Doors
Identify
True Casting
True Strike
Vigilant Slumber
Enlarge Person

Level 2:
Arcane Turmoil
Resist Energy
Glitterdust
Detect Thoughts
Locate Object
See Invisibility
Invisibility
Major Image
Mirror Image
Fox's Cunning
Levitate[/spoiler]

[/spoiler]

Sources allowed (just what we have between all players)are Pathfinder core, and the following 3.5 books: DMG, DMG2, MM, MM3, UA, CA, CM, CD, CC, CW, RoS, BoVD, BoED, ToB) Dweomerkeeper is banned, Signature spell also unavailable, so it looks I'll be memorizing a few Heightened Silent Images... Game starts at level 4, unknown ending level at this time. Current possible evil villain party members: Vampire Human (only +2 LA in PF!) Rogue, Half-Fiend Changeling Paladin of Slaughter, Human Warblade, Pixie (no class levels yet), Werewolf (only +1 LA) Ranger, another Half-Fiend Human of unknown class, a completely unknown character, and myself. What a crazy campaign this shall be.

Is there anything I could improve here? I am not really attached to any specific element of the build, just the basic diviner/illusionist concept mostly. If there is another way to do it better, or even a small feat change I should make, let me know!

How's the spell selection thus far? Anything major I'm missing and should pick up? (remember, no spell compendium.  :bigeye)


Original Post
[spoiler]
Hello all, wizards board's refugee looking for any ideas to improve my character for an evil game. The basic concept is an insane, illusionist/diviner who believes he is in fact a fallen god. Perception is reality, and his abilities as a god are as real as the illusions he can make (so not really at all). "I'm a GOD! (Will save to disbelieve)" I liked the divination part too, because it seems pretty divine to me, seeing the future/knowing everything/etc.

Looking into ways to optimize this idea, I noticed a few things. Using Pathfinder (which we're using), cantrips are at will. Gnome substitution level (from Races of Stone) makes Silent Image a cantrip. Silent Image at will is pure awesome. Then I figure, if I'm going to be a gnome illusionist already, might as well make a killer gnome, right? The divination aspect was pretty easy to add to the concept too: Divine Oracle prestige class (Complete Divine) + Spontaneous Divination (Complete Champion). Seems like a pretty solid megalomaniac to me! Let's get to the detailed crunch.

Here's the basic build at the moment: Illusionist 5/Master Illusionist 4/Shadowcraft Mage 5/Divine Oracle 6
(Gnome substitution level [Transmutation](RoS), Chains of Disbelief (UA), Focused Specialist [Evocation, Necromancy, Enchantment](CM), Spontaneous Divination (CC))

My main question here is thus: I'm stuck in what order to take the classes. Which option is better?

Illusionist 5/ Divine Oracle 2/ Shadowcraft Mage 5/ Master Specialist 4/ Divine Oracle +4

or

Illusionist 3/ Master Specialist 4/ Shadowcraft Mage 5/ Illusionist +2/ Divine Oracle 6

or

something else! Feel free to suggest more or less levels of anything in any order.


Feats: Spell Focus: Illusion (1st)
Heighten Spell (3rd)
Skill Focus: Knowledge(Religion) (5th) (with option 1, otherwise take at 13th, Craft Wondrous items at 3rd, and Heighten spell here)
Earth Sense (7th) (RoS)
Earth Spell (9th) (RoS)
Residual Magic (11th) (CM)
Craft Wondrous Items (13th)
Arcane Mastery (15th) (CA)
Arcane Disciple(luck) (17th) (CD) <---at this point, perception really does become reality.
Quicken Spell (19th)
Scribe Scroll (Wiz-1)
Skill Focus: Spellcraft (MS-1)
Greater Spell Focus: Illusion (MS-3)

Sources allowed (just what we have between all players)are Pathfinder core, and the following 3.5 books: DMG, DMG2, MM, MM3, UA, CA, CM, CD, CC, CW, RoS, BoVD, BoED, ToB) Dweomerkeeper is banned, Signature spell also unavailable, so I'll be memorizing a few Heightened Silent Images... Game starts at level 4, unknown ending level at this time.

Is there anything I could improve here? I am not really attached to any specific element of the build, just the basic diviner/illusionist concept mostly. If there is another way to do it better, or even a small feat change I should make, let me know! Seems to me the weakest point is the last 4 levels of Divine Oracle, but I'm not sure what to replace them with.[/spoiler]
« Last Edit: November 07, 2009, 05:06:10 AM by kobo1d »

Emy

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Re: Shadowcraft Oracle: Any suggestions?
« Reply #1 on: November 02, 2009, 08:17:38 AM »
No Illusion Mastery [ACF] (or Spell Mastery [feat])? I'd want some way of spontaneously casting Silent Image, so that I could prepare only utility spells.

Rebel7284

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Re: Shadowcraft Oracle: Any suggestions?
« Reply #2 on: November 02, 2009, 09:29:18 AM »
I would drop master specialist and take divine oracle to full.  Immune to surprise is nice.
Negative level on a chicken would make it a wight the next day.  Chicken the other wight meat. -borg286

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Re: Shadowcraft Oracle: Any suggestions?
« Reply #3 on: November 02, 2009, 10:03:29 AM »
Proteous, is a feat from Exemplars of Evil that lest you Spont. cast all illusion spells, and quicken cast any you have prepared, IIRC.

It's only prereq is Spell Focus Illusion.

So broken.  So a must for SCM.

I second taking Oracle to full.  The only reason to take more than 3 levels of Oracle is for the capstone.

Rebel7284

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Re: Shadowcraft Oracle: Any suggestions?
« Reply #4 on: November 02, 2009, 10:24:50 AM »
Just looked up proteus.  It only works with illusion (glamer) spells.  Still, a pretty nice feat.
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PhaedrusXY

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Re: Shadowcraft Oracle: Any suggestions?
« Reply #5 on: November 02, 2009, 11:29:52 AM »
Dweomerkeeper is banned, Signature spell also unavailable, so I'll be memorizing a few Heightened Silent Images... Game starts at level 4, unknown ending level at this time.
If you can cast Silent Image spontaneously, then you can apply metamagic to it spontaneously as well. The only drawback is that it will take a full round action to cast them, as you're applying metamagic to spontaneously cast spells.
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

KellKheraptis

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Re: Shadowcraft Oracle: Any suggestions?
« Reply #6 on: November 02, 2009, 11:45:41 AM »
Dweomerkeeper is banned, Signature spell also unavailable, so I'll be memorizing a few Heightened Silent Images... Game starts at level 4, unknown ending level at this time.
If you can cast Silent Image spontaneously, then you can apply metamagic to it spontaneously as well. The only drawback is that it will take a full round action to cast them, as you're applying metamagic to spontaneously cast spells.

In which case, be sure to take Invisible Spell, to abuse Arcane Spellsurge mechanics.  Sanctum/Earth Spell both, for reducing the levels of spells and apply ASs, since that'll come in handy with Arcane Fusion and such.
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Re: Shadowcraft Oracle: Any suggestions?
« Reply #7 on: November 02, 2009, 04:33:52 PM »
Just looked up proteus.  It only works with illusion (glamer) spells.  Still, a pretty nice feat.

Huh, I missed that.

It's still pretty nifty.  Auto-quickened Greater Invisibility

kobo1d

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Re: Shadowcraft Oracle: Any suggestions?
« Reply #8 on: November 02, 2009, 04:58:46 PM »
Quote from: Emy
No Illusion Mastery [ACF] (or Spell Mastery [feat])? I'd want some way of spontaneously casting Silent Image, so that I could prepare only utility spells.

I didn't think Spell Mastery/Illusion Mastery worked that way; I thought that is what the usually recommended Signature Spell does.  Does this really work? Is there another way to get spontaneous Silent Image? Should I consider a Sorcerer base? Granted, I lose a lot, but is it worth the spontaneity?

Quote from: Rebel7284
I would drop master specialist and take divine oracle to full.  Immune to surprise is nice.

Strongly considered this, is always on Immune to Surprise worth more than +3 DC Illusions?

Currently checking out other recommendations...

PhaedrusXY

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Re: Shadowcraft Oracle: Any suggestions?
« Reply #9 on: November 02, 2009, 05:10:04 PM »
Just looked up proteus.  It only works with illusion (glamer) spells.  Still, a pretty nice feat.

Huh, I missed that.
So did I the first time I read it. I nearly crapped my pants. Then I reread it.
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

Akalsaris

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Re: Shadowcraft Oracle: Any suggestions?
« Reply #10 on: November 02, 2009, 05:35:25 PM »
I'd say it's worth more than 4 levels of master specialist, since you already went 6 levels in.  It depends on your DM though - if the DM never does surprise rounds, it's not worth it.

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Re: Shadowcraft Oracle: Any suggestions?
« Reply #11 on: November 02, 2009, 05:51:53 PM »
Quote from: Emy
No Illusion Mastery [ACF] (or Spell Mastery [feat])? I'd want some way of spontaneously casting Silent Image, so that I could prepare only utility spells.

I didn't think Spell Mastery/Illusion Mastery worked that way; I thought that is what the usually recommended Signature Spell does.  Does this really work? Is there another way to get spontaneous Silent Image? Should I consider a Sorcerer base? Granted, I lose a lot, but is it worth the spontaneity?



I think what that bit about Illusion Mastery/Spell Mastery was getting at was fulfilling the prerequisite for Signature Spell, which requires you to have spell mastery for the spell you want to use the feat for.
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kobo1d

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Re: Shadowcraft Oracle: Any suggestions?
« Reply #12 on: November 02, 2009, 09:04:06 PM »
I think what that bit about Illusion Mastery/Spell Mastery was getting at was fulfilling the prerequisite for Signature Spell, which requires you to have spell mastery for the spell you want to use the feat for.

If I could take Signature Spell, I would be all about Illusion Mastery. Sadly, PGtF is off limits.

Probably going with Illusionist 5/Divine Oracle 2/Shadowcraft Mage 5/Divine Oracle +8, I guess.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2009, 09:11:16 PM by kobo1d »

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Re: Shadowcraft Oracle: Any suggestions?
« Reply #13 on: November 03, 2009, 06:29:54 AM »
Proteus actually allows immediate action glamers.

And you might be able to free a feat with a magical location. One of them gives Skill focus (K: religion).

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Re: Shadowcraft Oracle: Any suggestions?
« Reply #14 on: November 03, 2009, 09:51:37 AM »
Proteus actually allows immediate action glamers.

And you might be able to free a feat with a magical location. One of them gives Skill focus (K: religion).

Seconded on buying the crappy skill focus feat.  Also, if it indeed allowed immediate action glamers...doesn't that mean an SCM with 10 levels of Divine Oracle can fling any Conjuration/Evocation spell regardless of who gets the drop on them, at any time in the round?  Who needs counterfire...my reply is Crushing Fist of Spite on the offending mage's FACE!
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Rebel7284

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Re: Shadowcraft Oracle: Any suggestions?
« Reply #15 on: November 03, 2009, 10:08:02 AM »
Shadowcraft mage can convert 5 specific Illusion (Figment) spells to shadow illusion.  Quickened Illusion (Glamer) spells can't be converted to Shadow Illusion.
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KellKheraptis

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Re: Shadowcraft Oracle: Any suggestions?
« Reply #16 on: November 03, 2009, 10:49:22 AM »
Shadowcraft mage can convert 5 specific Illusion (Figment) spells to shadow illusion.  Quickened Illusion (Glamer) spells can't be converted to Shadow Illusion.

Figures...any way to get it to work with figments, then?
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Re: Shadowcraft Oracle: Any suggestions?
« Reply #17 on: November 03, 2009, 11:02:34 AM »
Shadowcraft mage can convert 5 specific Illusion (Figment) spells to shadow illusion.  Quickened Illusion (Glamer) spells can't be converted to Shadow Illusion.

Figures...any way to get it to work with figments, then?

Outside of a 3rd party feat I can not think of anything.
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LunaticsLament

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Re: Shadowcraft Oracle: Any suggestions?
« Reply #18 on: November 03, 2009, 12:16:01 PM »
Shadowcraft mage can convert 5 specific Illusion (Figment) spells to shadow illusion.  Quickened Illusion (Glamer) spells can't be converted to Shadow Illusion.

Figures...any way to get it to work with figments, then?

Outside of a 3rd party feat I can not think of anything.

You might be able to get around it by mimicing the glamer spell with one of those Image Spells.
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KellKheraptis

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Re: Shadowcraft Oracle: Any suggestions?
« Reply #19 on: November 03, 2009, 12:26:48 PM »
Shadowcraft mage can convert 5 specific Illusion (Figment) spells to shadow illusion.  Quickened Illusion (Glamer) spells can't be converted to Shadow Illusion.

Figures...any way to get it to work with figments, then?

Outside of a 3rd party feat I can not think of anything.

You might be able to get around it by mimicing the glamer spell with one of those Image Spells.

Well, then all you're doing is wasting Shadow Illusion to create a Glamer.  What we need is a way to treat all illusions as Figments, so that way anything that applies to one, applies to the other.  Sadly, I've never heard of such a thing...but it wouldn't surprise me if it existed, since WotC obviously doesn't watch the CO boards a whole lot :P
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