Author Topic: Help with 3.5 DMM Cleric, please!  (Read 7729 times)

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S_Jerusalem

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Help with 3.5 DMM Cleric, please!
« on: October 28, 2009, 05:29:23 AM »
Hey all,

I am working on possible backup characters for the Greyhawk Age of Worms campaign I am playing in. I have a great stat roll of 11, 13, 15, 15, 16, 16. I am considering a Cloistered Cleric of Wee-Jas Divine Metamagic build. I have never played a DMM cleric before, and I would like your help with some optimization ideas.

Restrictions: No non-Greyhawk campaign setting book options. No fractional BAB. Retraining is allowed, but time consuming and time will matter during the campaign. No Book of 9 Swords.

Starting Level: 6-8

Likely Roles: Primary Caster, Face. I may have to pick up some slack on the Arcane end for my group, so I am thinking Magic domain.

GP: 13,000ish, no more than 6.5k on one item.

My thoughts were to take Planning and Magic and to consider ditching knowledge for the devotion.

I'm not certain on the best feats, though. My first thoughts were something like:
P: Extend Spell
1: Extra Turning
H: DMM: Extend
3: Extra Turning
6: I don't know where to go from here, really.

I imagine that I want to pick up Quicken and Persistent at some point, I will be able to retrain DMM to one and will pick it up again for the other. Are the rest of my feats Extra Turnings? What is the best order/progression of feats?

I would love any suggestions on this, PrCs that are tops, any favorite or particularly awesome items I ought to invest in or some such. My DM doesn't agree with me that CCleric is awesome, and I want to make him cry. Please help! Many thanks in advance.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2009, 04:20:58 PM by S_Jerusalem »

Frost Wolf

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Re: Help with 3.5 DMM Cleric, please!
« Reply #1 on: October 28, 2009, 07:55:13 AM »
I'd go this way with the feats:

HD1-Extend MM
Human-Persistant Spell MM
HD3- DMM Persistant spell
HD6- extra turning

And I'd grab Quicken at 9th.

Sneak in power attack (if you wish to enter combat) and CWI (to make your own Nightsticks) at some point. If down time for crafting is rare, make sure you buy a few night sticks (BoVD)

Contemplative will net you another domain.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2009, 07:56:46 AM by Frost Wolf »

cru

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Re: Help with 3.5 DMM Cleric, please!
« Reply #2 on: October 28, 2009, 09:02:43 AM »
middle aged human:
15 str
12 dex
14 con
12 int (8 skills/level should be enough? or swap with cha)
17 wis (+1 level) = 18
16 cha

Old-school gear:
Full plate: 1500
rod of extend, lesser: 3000
periapt of wisdom +2: 4000

I don't think that Planning is in Wee Jas' portfolio. But I assume you can use it. I am also kinda unsure about DMM Extend. Metamagic rods of extend are cheap and good. I'd rather go DMM Persist.
* P:Extend; 1:Persist; H:DMM-Persist; 3:ExtraT; 6:ExtraT
This will give you 14 turn attempts, i.e. you can persist 2 spells. Perhaps you could first persist and then rod-extend for 2day duration?

Taking power attack at some point if you want to melee is a good idea.

snakeman830

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Re: Help with 3.5 DMM Cleric, please!
« Reply #3 on: October 28, 2009, 11:27:37 AM »
Planning is one of Wee Jas's domains.

Would you prefer to be party buffer or self-buffer?  That really makes a big difference on your feats.
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Brainpiercing

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Re: Help with 3.5 DMM Cleric, please!
« Reply #4 on: October 28, 2009, 11:36:50 AM »
Planning was given to Wee Jas in some book, but don't ask me where.

Other than that I'd go with Cru's build, with the exception of the stat distribution. Highest stats on a cleric should always be Wisdom, then Con, then everything else.  But maybe that's just me.  So... without using aging:

Str 15, Dex 11,Con 16, , Int 13, Wis 16 Cha 15, and buy a Cloak of Cha over a Periapt, first, or at the latest when you wish to persist two spells. You don't really rely on high save DCs anyway, so it's just for the bonus spells, and you can do fine with one spell less for a while.  Persist, for instance, Divine Power and Ice Axe). This will give you great melee all day (2d12+3 as a touch attack, of course you can't power-attack yet, but....), and you can carry around a backup Heavy Mace or Morning Star. Alternatively, maybe Girallon's Blessing and Divine Power, although the duration on that is pretty long, anyway. It's just very neat to be able to Wield a two-handed weapon, possibly with reach, and a shield AND maybe a rod, your holy symbol, whatever, in the fourth hand. You'll be house in melee at level 7, anyway.

archangel.arcanis

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Re: Help with 3.5 DMM Cleric, please!
« Reply #5 on: October 28, 2009, 01:05:32 PM »
Since you are already a cleric of Wee-Jas consider Ruby Knight Vindicator. While it is most benificial if you plan on going into melee it still gives you some non-magical healing capabilities and the option of taking a lot of turns in one round, spamming WRT, if you don't burn all of your turn attempts on other things. Net loss of 3 caster levels, 1 from dip and 2 from PrC, so you still get 9th level spells. This puts a lot of emphasis on having a ton of turn attempts a day though so it might not fit very well with the rest of your build, but is an alternative.
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S_Jerusalem

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Re: Help with 3.5 DMM Cleric, please!
« Reply #6 on: October 28, 2009, 04:32:17 PM »
Thanks for all the suggestions so far!

Cru: I like the build you posted, I will likely wind up with something like this, I think.

I would like to be more of a party buffer for the next 5ish levels. This was one of the reasons I thought DMM Extend might be very good for the time being. Are there really that many spells worth Persisting early? As I said, I will have a chance to retrain it to Quicken or Persist before L9-11 if I want.

As for Ruby Knight, I forgot to mention that my DM is very anti-ToB, so that is a no. I edited to reflect that in the post.

I am not very worried about filling a frontline combat role as we have a pretty strong Soulknife/Illumine Soul, an Orc chain fighter and a Barb/Cleric of Kord. Buffing, control and social will be my major roles.

Any thoughts on a 20 level feat progression focusing on party buff for the earlier levels? I'm mostly lost after L9 or 12 where I will be able to have both DMM persist and DMM quicken. Just more Extra Turning? Any other particularly busted things to do with this sort of cleric?

Brainpiercing

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Re: Help with 3.5 DMM Cleric, please!
« Reply #7 on: October 28, 2009, 09:22:43 PM »
Thanks for all the suggestions so far!

Cru: I like the build you posted, I will likely wind up with something like this, I think.

I would like to be more of a party buffer for the next 5ish levels. This was one of the reasons I thought DMM Extend might be very good for the time being. Are there really that many spells worth Persisting early? As I said, I will have a chance to retrain it to Quicken or Persist before L9-11 if I want.

As for Ruby Knight, I forgot to mention that my DM is very anti-ToB, so that is a no. I edited to reflect that in the post.

I am not very worried about filling a frontline combat role as we have a pretty strong Soulknife/Illumine Soul, an Orc chain fighter and a Barb/Cleric of Kord. Buffing, control and social will be my major roles.

Any thoughts on a 20 level feat progression focusing on party buff for the earlier levels? I'm mostly lost after L9 or 12 where I will be able to have both DMM persist and DMM quicken. Just more Extra Turning? Any other particularly busted things to do with this sort of cleric?
Being the buffbot is only good for so long. It's also not a primary role of a cleric. You want to either be a GOD, and control the battlefield too (which wizards do better), or at least be a buffbot that can do better, and be a war weaver (which is, incidentally, also usually a wizard). As a DMM cleric, you should at least be 50% killing machine, or you're wasting half your potential.
If you want to put more emphasis on buffing your party members, then you would need Divine Reach via a Hierophant dip (which will set back your casting by one level), and then take Chain Spell and DMM(Chain). But seriously, a War Weaver still does it better, because he only needs a move action and doesn't need metamagic to affect all allies.

And the best cleric buffs are best put on yourself, too.

S_Jerusalem

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Re: Help with 3.5 DMM Cleric, please!
« Reply #8 on: October 28, 2009, 10:02:54 PM »
Oh, I understand that. I don't intend to be a permanent buffbot. I want to do control and buffing. I get that some of the best things I will be able to do with DMM are things like persisting Divine Power/Righteous Might sorts of things. However, I don't know at what level buffing your buddies becomes significantly worse, as I have never played this sort of cleric before.

Where is the dropoff? Is buffing party members just downhill from L7 on? L9?

I definitely do intend on transforming into a maniacal killing machine with the earlier mentioned buffs, I just don't want that to be all I wind up doing.

I agree that wizards make better GODs than clerics, which is one of the reasons I would like to play a very powerful cleric build. I know that I can play a powerful wizard well, and I have a feeling that if I do that I may crack the game open and offend the DMs occasionally finnicky sensibilities.

I have read through the Cleric HB on here, so I have some ideas from that, but it doesn't go much in depth about the best ways to use/build on DMM. I am looking for the benefit of this board's vast experience to help me avoid any pitfalls I could stumble upon here.

Tonymitsu

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Re: Help with 3.5 DMM Cleric, please!
« Reply #9 on: October 29, 2009, 02:20:31 AM »
Nightsticks are actually in Libris Mortis, not BoVD.

Frost Wolf

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Re: Help with 3.5 DMM Cleric, please!
« Reply #10 on: October 29, 2009, 02:29:41 AM »
>_<

No wonder I couldn't find them!

Seppuku

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Re: Help with 3.5 DMM Cleric, please!
« Reply #11 on: October 30, 2009, 02:13:05 PM »
I know you're worried about game-cracking, but have you considered a war weaver? 

If you already have three front-liners, a DMM cleric does seem like kind of a waste.  Unless you want to overshadow them, but that doesn't seem like your style.  On the other hand, ripping open 5 buffs in one action, and turning your wealth of front liners into a buzzsaw is pretty fun. 

Personality wise, it looks like you're going at this character as a selfless contributor.  If selfless contributor is your target, the focused transmuter war weaver route is a great one.  You can give yourself a decent charisma, role-play the face action, and the buffing and battlefield control will take care of themselves...

I also don't think your DM would have a problem with you uber-buffing the team, as that way everyone gets to have more fun.  Your front liners are more a part of the action, and your DM gets to use monsters he wouldn't normally because you can shape the efficacy of your group through diverse buffing options. 

It seems win-win to me. 

PhaedrusXY

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Re: Help with 3.5 DMM Cleric, please!
« Reply #12 on: October 30, 2009, 02:35:27 PM »
DMM: Chain and DMM: Persistent are both pretty good at buffing your party. Chain gets them all Greater Magic Weapon, and Persistent gives them fast healing (from Mass Lesser Vigor) and Righteous Wrath of the Faithful (which is like Haste+).

Chain also works well for debuffing. Chained Greater Dispel Magic is just nasty... Take out the enemies buffs AND magic items all with one spell. If you fight dumb monsters that don't rely on magic at all more often, this trick will not be that useful, though.
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archangel.arcanis

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Re: Help with 3.5 DMM Cleric, please!
« Reply #13 on: October 30, 2009, 02:44:50 PM »
Thanks for all the suggestions so far!

Cru: I like the build you posted, I will likely wind up with something like this, I think.

I would like to be more of a party buffer for the next 5ish levels. This was one of the reasons I thought DMM Extend might be very good for the time being. Are there really that many spells worth Persisting early? As I said, I will have a chance to retrain it to Quicken or Persist before L9-11 if I want.

As for Ruby Knight, I forgot to mention that my DM is very anti-ToB, so that is a no. I edited to reflect that in the post.

I am not very worried about filling a frontline combat role as we have a pretty strong Soulknife/Illumine Soul, an Orc chain fighter and a Barb/Cleric of Kord. Buffing, control and social will be my major roles.

Any thoughts on a 20 level feat progression focusing on party buff for the earlier levels? I'm mostly lost after L9 or 12 where I will be able to have both DMM persist and DMM quicken. Just more Extra Turning? Any other particularly busted things to do with this sort of cleric?

I understand your pain on ToB. My DM banned it, not because they thought it was too powerful but because it made the PHB melee classes look too weak.  :banghead So because what they knew was weak they banned anything requiring them to read.

As to the full complement of feats lots of extra turning since you will burn through the turn attempts quickly. Depending on what you want to do may i suggest a dip in an arcane class and go Dweomerkeeper just to reduce the costs.
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Retire the character before the DM smacks you with the Table as the book will feel totally inadequate now.-Hazren

S_Jerusalem

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Re: Help with 3.5 DMM Cleric, please!
« Reply #14 on: October 31, 2009, 04:26:56 AM »
@seppuku: I will seriously consider a war weaver. That very much is the sort of character I am looking to play right now. I want to use my phenomenal cosmic powers to make them better and make our wins seem as awesome for the others as possible. I agree that my DM is less likely to be upset about that, and I am sure if I present the argument of making things MORE fun for the others instead of less he could be persuaded to my side.

@Phaedrus: I hadn't considered Chain with DMM, that does seem like it could be good times. I love to chain a Greater Dispel.

@archangel: Yeah... It's silly. He saw how awesome Thicket of Blades could be in our last campaign (Savage Tide, which another DM'd) and is now mistrustful of ToB. :( I had considered Dweamerkeeper as a PrC, it seems like a good fit for abusing huge + metamagic.

Seppuku

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Re: Help with 3.5 DMM Cleric, please!
« Reply #15 on: November 02, 2009, 02:29:22 PM »
@seppuku: I will seriously consider a war weaver. That very much is the sort of character I am looking to play right now. I want to use my phenomenal cosmic powers to make them better and make our wins seem as awesome for the others as possible. I agree that my DM is less likely to be upset about that, and I am sure if I present the argument of making things MORE fun for the others instead of less he could be persuaded to my side.

I don't get it.  From everything you've posted, you seem like a very nice person.  In addition, it appears that you are building a very unselfish character.  Why would your DM have reason to be upset?  Why are you trying to persuade him to allow you to do anything? 

Also, you said in your original post the group needed help with Arcane magic.  Playing a focused transmuter gives you all the buffing spells you need for your eldritch weave, and you still have enough general slots left over for your essential utility spells.  You can even sneak in some offensive capabilities if you choose, but with a war weaver it's completely unnecessary (in my opinion). 

As a DM, if I had a PC debating between a DMM cleric and a War Weaver, I would be all for the War Weaver.  A DMM cleric with persist can decide to solo adventures if things get frustrating.  A War Weaver is pretty committed to the success of the party.  Personally, anything the PCs elected to do that fostered teamwork and interdependence would be a positive for me as a DM. 

Aside from you saying you want to make your DM cry because he doesn't think clerics are any good, everything else in the thread says you want to help the beatsticks and not wreck the game for everyone.  Sure, some people hate on the cleric.  Whatever.  Next time you DM, make an evil DMM Persist Cleric-zilla walk into the town square, throw down a consumptive field on all the peasants, and go into complete titan mode on everything.  If you want to prove a point, that's a way to do it.  You don't want to put your time and effort into a character built on spite or as an object lesson.  Save that for a one-shot or when you're DM or recommend it to another DM in your group.  You'll end up wrecking the fun for everyone (including yourself) if you set out to break a game. 

P.S.  I resent the concept of building "game-breaking" characters, as the game is supposed to be an enjoyable social experience.  This includes the DM.  Pissing him off doesn't really prove anything, as he can just unleash the astral dreadnought/Manshoon/balor on your 8th level PCs and watch your helplessness.  It's a game meant to be a cooperative problem solving fantasy event, not a silly numbers competition.  Although silly numbers can be fun, it's more when everyone is doing silly numbers that the fun exists.  That said, it's hard to role-play when you're dead.

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Re: Help with 3.5 DMM Cleric, please!
« Reply #16 on: November 02, 2009, 03:58:31 PM »
Clerics are spiffy because they're single-class gishes.  Shoot bows or smash skulls while healing and buffing on the side.  Not doing physical combat as a Cleric is greatly gimping yourself.
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PhaedrusXY

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Re: Help with 3.5 DMM Cleric, please!
« Reply #17 on: November 02, 2009, 04:22:41 PM »
Not doing physical combat as a Cleric is greatly gimping yourself.
Bah, that's rubbish. It is certainly possible to make a very effective cleric that avoids physical combat. How about a cloistered cleric/shadowcraft mage? Or a Master of Shrouds? Or hell, just a cleric that throws up a bunch of undead beatsticks, and focuses on buffing them, and debuffing the enemy? That's one of the things I like about clerics: they literally do just about anything, and the "flavor" of each individual cleric can vary dramatically.
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]