Author Topic: Gestalt Daggerspell Mage - Arena Setting  (Read 2837 times)

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Venia

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Gestalt Daggerspell Mage - Arena Setting
« on: February 06, 2010, 10:43:44 PM »
I'm involved in a gestalt arena. I'm also in love with ToB. So I'm making a Daggerspell Mage Warblade. My class progression is something like this: Wizard5/Daggerspell Mage 1/Spellthief1/Wizard1/Daggerspell Mage10/Wizard3//Warblade1/Spellthief1/Swordsage1/Warblade3/Blood Claw Master2/Rest Warblade.

I'm limited with sources/classes, so the only things I could potentially do to change the build would be add a prestige class or switch levels around. I'm planning on taking the Weapon Finesse/Shadow Blade route so I'd be very much SAD for each side, INT//DEX.

I'm also probably going to end up sitting in Blood in the Water stance, and Aptituding+Lightning Mace+Increased Critical'ing Kukris. I'm hoping with my high dex and my good (d10) hit die I'll be able to avoid/soak up most hits while dealing MASSIVE amounts of damage.

Here's my real question though. What game-breaking things can I do with my DSM goodness? The first one I was thinking about was Arcane Thesised+Maximised Vampiric Touch, which would take 60 health from my opponent and give me 60 health with each hit. (Arcane Thesis has been ruled to take -2 metamagic levels away from each spell). Other than that, I'm a little at a loss? Any of you CO geniuses have any thoughts on my build or any ideas on what to use for my spells?

NiteCyper

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Re: Gestalt Daggerspell Mage - Arena Setting
« Reply #1 on: February 07, 2010, 03:59:20 AM »
Multiclass XP penalties.
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Rebel7284

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Re: Gestalt Daggerspell Mage - Arena Setting
« Reply #2 on: February 07, 2010, 05:38:48 AM »
With Arcane Thesis made even more broken, what's your excuse for not abusing it?

Is Incantatrix Legal?

Ruby Knight Vindicator can give you a bunch of extra actions to use with Arcane Thesised spells and combines your love of wizard casting and Tome of Battle.
Something like:
Cleric 1/Crusader 4/RKV 7/Crusader 8   //
Wizard 3/Master Specialist 2/Wizard 7/Initiate of the Seven Veils 7/XX 1

Negative level on a chicken would make it a wight the next day.  Chicken the other wight meat. -borg286

Venia

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Re: Gestalt Daggerspell Mage - Arena Setting
« Reply #3 on: February 07, 2010, 10:14:03 AM »
Incantrix is legal. No, there are no multiclass penalties. I may have been unclear on Thesis. It takes away -2 levels of metamatic per spell. Meaning if I had a quickened maximised vampiric touch, I'd be using a 8th level slot instead of a 10th.

And unfortunately RKV is unaccessable, being a theurge class.

Rebel7284

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Re: Gestalt Daggerspell Mage - Arena Setting
« Reply #4 on: February 07, 2010, 02:33:36 PM »
Oh, ok, so the arcane thesis thing has been made less broken.

Factotum 11/Warblade 8/XX1 //
Wizard 5/Incantatrix 10/Shadowcraft Mage 5
Double standard actions, Int to Initiative, Automatically overcomes SR and DR, Shadowcraft mage goodness.

Alternatively if you want more sneaky goodness:
Rogue 1/Factotum 11/Warblade 8 //
Wizard 5/Incantatrix 10/Unseen Seer 5
Negative level on a chicken would make it a wight the next day.  Chicken the other wight meat. -borg286

NiteCyper

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Re: Gestalt Daggerspell Mage - Arena Setting
« Reply #5 on: February 07, 2010, 04:14:06 PM »
"Cunning Breach" requires the expense of an Inspiration point; I don't see how that build "automatically overcomes SR and DR".

Reference(s):
Donjonscape - Factotum - http://yfrog.com/judu14factotumpx
« Last Edit: February 07, 2010, 04:50:21 PM by NiteCyper »
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Rebel7284

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Re: Gestalt Daggerspell Mage - Arena Setting
« Reply #6 on: February 07, 2010, 04:18:48 PM »
"Cunning Breach" requires the expense of an Inspiration point; I don't see how that build "automatically overcomes SR and DR".

It requires spending two inspiration points actually.  Still, it's a free action whenever you need it.
Negative level on a chicken would make it a wight the next day.  Chicken the other wight meat. -borg286

bearsarebrown

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Re: Gestalt Daggerspell Mage - Arena Setting
« Reply #7 on: February 07, 2010, 04:22:41 PM »
"Cunning Breach" requires the expense of an Inspiration point; I don't see how that build "automatically overcomes SR and DR".

It's automatic because you don't have to roll. It isn't free though, you're right.

Venia

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Re: Gestalt Daggerspell Mage - Arena Setting
« Reply #8 on: February 07, 2010, 08:10:12 PM »
Guys, not meaning to be rude, but what happened to the core of this build? The daggerspell mage, which I was asking for feedback on.

NiteCyper

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Re: Gestalt Daggerspell Mage - Arena Setting
« Reply #9 on: February 07, 2010, 08:50:34 PM »
If you are going to play the caster, Osteomancer Daggerspell Mage is not the way to go.

Lo, behold ye commandments of optimization (the first and the fifth):

"I. Thou shalt not give up caster levels."

"V. Thou shalt not give up caster levels. Verily, this Commandment is like unto the first; but of such magnitude that it bore mentioning twice."

Just ask yourself: what would my character do if the opponent used "Dust of Sneezing & Choking"? Color Spray? Glitterdust?

Reference(s):
Caelic's Ten Commandments of Optimization - http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/21918953/The_Ten_Commandments_of_Optimization_redux
Idea help: Osteomancer / Geomancer out of ShadowCaster, or something - http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/22377961/Idea_help:_Osteomancer___Geomancer_out_of_ShadowCaster,_or_something&post_num=2#389626077
« Last Edit: February 07, 2010, 08:56:23 PM by NiteCyper »
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Havok4

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Re: Gestalt Daggerspell Mage - Arena Setting
« Reply #10 on: February 07, 2010, 09:21:40 PM »

Lo, behold ye commandments of optimization (the first and the fifth):

"I. Thou shalt not give up caster levels."

"V. Thou shalt not give up caster levels. Verily, this Commandment is like unto the first; but of such magnitude that it bore mentioning twice."


There are exception however, but the class features you get have to really be worth it although often it is only in very specialized builds. There are a few examples of classes that are worth it, RKV is one, Ordained Champion, Swiftblade, Malconvoker, Nightmare Spinner, Bone Knight and walker in the wastes.

NiteCyper

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Re: Gestalt Daggerspell Mage - Arena Setting
« Reply #11 on: February 07, 2010, 09:26:39 PM »
Same with the Dungeoncrasher variant Fighter.

Wait, Nightmare Spinner? I've only heard that thing's (only) worth a (capstone) dip (for ScMs).
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kurashu

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Re: Gestalt Daggerspell Mage - Arena Setting
« Reply #12 on: February 08, 2010, 11:04:29 AM »
I would say: Wizard 5/Daggerspell Mage 10/Unseen Seer 5\\Spellthief 1/Swashbuckler 3/Swordsage 1/Warblade 15

Take Daring Outlaw and Master Spellthief and for your Unseen Seer bonus spell: Hunter's Eye. You'd get 1d6 from Spellthief, +3d6 from Daggerspell, +2d6 from unseen seer, +2d6 from Daring Outlaw, and hunter's eye will give you another 6d6(?) for a total of 14d6. You have a decent BAB , so hitting with your TWF shouldn't be hard -- especially if you polymorph into something with a monster strength.

You lost one caster level, but you have a CL of 20 (Master Spellthief) and can steal spells to power yourself and you only lost 2 BAB.

Havok4

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Re: Gestalt Daggerspell Mage - Arena Setting
« Reply #13 on: February 08, 2010, 12:45:35 PM »
Same with the Dungeoncrasher variant Fighter.

Wait, Nightmare Spinner? I've only heard that thing's (only) worth a (capstone) dip (for ScMs).

Which is when you loose a caster level, so it can be worth the loss with the right build.

Ithamar

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Re: Gestalt Daggerspell Mage - Arena Setting
« Reply #14 on: February 08, 2010, 04:15:41 PM »
Venia - That's not how Arcane Thesis works in the arena.  You just can't get negative spell levels.  Like an energy subbed Fireball doesn't become a level 2 spell for instance.
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Fluffles

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Re: Gestalt Daggerspell Mage - Arena Setting
« Reply #15 on: February 09, 2010, 06:02:42 PM »
Yeah Venia, you should know that Ith is also on here   :P

Ith, he knows that, he just didn't convey it very accurately  :p