Author Topic: Thinking of Redoing Algernon  (Read 2496 times)

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DocRoc

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Thinking of Redoing Algernon
« on: October 21, 2009, 04:39:53 AM »
It's come to my attention that casters who share lists can purchase feats based of off level requirements, a la DM pg 15.  This means that it is possible to build out a twice betrayer of shaar who is also a Cheater of Mystra who also uses the Algernon trick, if I am not mistaken.  It will likely be a lot of work, should I do it?  Would it amuse people?

Would look something like:
Human Favored Soul 4/War Weaver 5/Spellguard of Silverymoon 4/Sacred Exorcist 1/Contemplative 1/Dweomerkeeper 4
Uses:
Dragonsblood Pool\Jacob's Ladder trick
Favored Soul ACF
Spellguard's 4th level ability

Includes:
Initiate of Mystra
DMM: Persist

May be more viable with some esoterica that I'd need to research.  The big issue, obviously, is the lack of some of the features of the TBoS.  Ideally we would like at least a 1 dip in shadow adept.  I'm not seeing how that can fit right now, though, to my shame and sorrow.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2009, 04:47:17 AM by DocRoc »

KellKheraptis

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Re: Thinking of Redoing Algernon
« Reply #1 on: October 21, 2009, 04:42:21 AM »
It's come to my attention that casters who share lists can purchase feats based of off level requirements, a la DM pg 15.  This means that it is possible to build out a twice betrayer of shaar who is also a Cheater of Mystra who also uses the Algernon trick, if I am not mistaken.  It will likely be a lot of work, should I do it?  Would it amuse people?



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The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Thinking of Redoing Algernon
« Reply #2 on: October 21, 2009, 06:20:45 AM »
Wait a second, a warsnake can become an initiate of mystra?

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KellKheraptis

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Re: Thinking of Redoing Algernon
« Reply #3 on: October 21, 2009, 07:01:11 AM »
To Do List :

Find the bloody TBoS!  It's not on 339 anymore as of a week ago :(
Double check all questionable mechanics
Snag ironclad IoM and means of targetting tapestry
Load on the power!

Ok, the middle two so far seem ok.  I assume IoM is gained through FS?  The main powers of the TBoS were persistify anything and two means of saying fuck you to AMF.  So we need Shadow Weave Magic at the very least, and as you said, a one level dip in Shadow Adept would rock.  Getting IoM requires a divine base, sadly.  Next question : is selection of spells known limited only be the deity in question?  Because FS has ACF's that allow it arcane spells as divine, and if you're patron is Mystra, every spell she casts is conceivably potentially divine as well.  Going off of this premise, our next goal is clear : match the versatility of my Rainbow Warsnake and SCM builds by snagging a psionic tattoo of psyref so we can reswap any spells we need at the time just by spending the PP.  Hell, if it's available pre-epic, that's almost worth throwing a good chunk of WBL for at-will use.  Anyone know the formula (well, the base gp value actually, since we have two parts of the equation already) for ML 20 on a 4th level power at will?  Or even 3/day would probably be more than enough.

Next, why bother with SGoSm if you're using the ACF?  That seems redundant, until I know the reasoning behind it (the +1 CL though shores up the one eaten by War Weaver).  I was initially thinking sneaking into War Weaver at level 2, but at least 3 levels are needed for IoM, so going off of that, we get :
[spoiler]Favored Soul 3/War Weaver 5
1st: Heighten Spell and Versatile Spellcaster, 3rd: Enlarge Spell[/spoiler]
If we obviate Spellguard out, that frees a total of 5 levels.  Contemplative can go if we take Planar Touchstone (Catalogs of Enlightenment) for the magic domain, freeing up another level (hope it works...several of my builds use it).  Sacred Ex needs level 10 before entry at 11th, so we've got two levels to play with before we can start DMMing, though getting one of those last two of DK would put us at FS 3/WW 5/DK 3/Sac Ex 1 at level 12, with DMM capability.
[spoiler]Favored Soul 3/War Weaver 5/Dweomerkeeper 3/Sacred Exorcist 1
1st: Heighten Spell and Versatile Spellcaster, 3rd: Enlarge Spell, 6th: Extend Spell, 9th: Persistent Spell, 12th: DMM (Persist)[/spoiler]
We've now gotta take a flaw to cram an item creation feat in there, since we can't get it off domains (used to snag magic domain) or bonus feats (we're not a wizard).  That's ok, we won't notice -1 AC, and really if the DM won't allow flaws we can always wait til 15th and do without something for a level or two.  15th level will see IoM ostensibly, and a second flaw or waiting until 18th would be needed to get shadow adept, but that frees up 3 levels at the end for whatever we want.  Incantatrix 3 would do away with the need for DMM entirely (though then we can snag DMM Quicken, and hop into rocket tag), and we can suffer the loss of Evocation with access to illusion.  Furthermore, if it only applies to lost arcane spells of one school, we don't lose squat, since we're purely divine.  That would snag one extra metamagic feat of our choice, namely reach or ocular spell, assuming it's needed, and that shores up any doubt on targetting the tapestry as well.  So our final build :
[spoiler]Favored Soul 3/War Weaver 5/Dweomerkeeper 1-3/Sacred Exorcist 1/Dweomerkeeper 4/Incantatrix 4/Shadow Adept 1/Dweomerkeeper 5-6
1st: Heighten Spell and Versatile Spellcaster (Flaw Feats: Scribe Scroll, Iron Will that can also be bought), 3rd: Enlarge Spell, 6th: Extend Spell, 9th: Persistent Spell, 12th: DMM (Persist or Quicken), 15th: Shadow Weave Magic, 18th: Initiate of Mystra, MM: Reach/Ocular Spell, MM: Quicken Spell[/spoiler]

Some levels might work better in different positions, and I'm going to double check it after it's up so I can step back and examine it, but that should fulfill most if not all of the objectives in the original post, while still remaining RAW (other than the FS bit), or at least as RAW as the TBoS was.

EDIT : Here's a summary and level by level.
[spoiler]1)Favored Soul 1-ACF, Heighten Spell, Versatile Spellcaster
2)Favored Soul 2-
3)Favored Soul 3-Enlarge Spell
4)War Weaver 1-Eldritch Tapestry
5)War Weaver 2-Quiescent Weave I
6)War Weaver 3-Quiescent Weave II, Extend Spell
7)War Weaver 4-Quiescent Weave III
8)War Weaver 5-Enlarged Tapestry, Quiescent Weave IV
9)Dweomerkeeper 1-Mantle of Spells : (something nice here), Persistent Spell
10)Dweomerkeeper 2-Arcane Sight
11)Dweomerkeeper 3-Mantle of Spells : (something nice here)
12)Sacred Exorcist 1-Exorcism, Turn Undead (3+Cha/day), Shadow Weave Magic
13)Dweomerkeeper 4-Supernatural Spell 1/day
14)Incantatrix 1-Metamagic Feat: Quicken Spell
15)Incantatrix 2-Cooperative Metamagic, DMM Quicken
16)Incantatrix 3-Metamagic Effect
17)Incantatrix 4-Metamagic Feat : Reach/Ocular Spell
18)Shadow Adept 1-(3 Shadow feats), Initiate of Mystra
19)Dweomerkeeper 5-Mantle of Spells : (something nice here)
20)Dweomerkeeper 6-Supernatural Spell 2/day

Bought : Iron Will (Otyugh Hole), Dragonblood Pool, Scribe Scroll (Heward's Hall)[/spoiler]
« Last Edit: October 21, 2009, 07:13:30 AM by KellKheraptis »
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Agita

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Re: Thinking of Redoing Algernon
« Reply #4 on: October 21, 2009, 10:37:46 AM »
To Do List :

Find the bloody TBoS!  It's not on 339 anymore as of a week ago :(
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Tshern

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Re: Thinking of Redoing Algernon
« Reply #5 on: October 21, 2009, 11:18:37 AM »
It's come to my attention that casters who share lists can purchase feats based of off level requirements, a la DM pg 15.
My DMG's page 15 just gives tips about handling gaming sessions.

Quote
This means that it is possible to build out a twice betrayer of shaar who is also a Cheater of Mystra who also uses the Algernon trick, if I am not mistaken.  It will likely be a lot of work, should I do it?  Would it amuse people?
Algernon trick?

Quote
Dragonsblood Pool\Jacob's Ladder trick
What are these?

What Favored Soul ACF are we talking about? You still need 3rd level arcane spells to enter War Weaver, so hopefully you'll get those through the ACF.

Also, could we somehow abuse the Contemplative spellcasting description here:
Quote from: Complete Divine
If the contemplative did not previously belong to a divine spellcasting class, she gains the ability to cast divine spells exactly as a cleric of her patron deity. Her spell progression is the same as that of a cleric.

Not quite sure how the caster level of that thing would work. Would you use the entirety of your HD or what?

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Alastar

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Re: Thinking of Redoing Algernon
« Reply #6 on: October 21, 2009, 11:30:44 AM »
yeah, what's algernon's trick, i'm curious.

Rymosrac

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Re: Thinking of Redoing Algernon
« Reply #7 on: October 21, 2009, 12:22:17 PM »
My DMG's page 15 just gives tips about handling gaming sessions.

Yeah, I looked there first too. Dragon Magic.

Edit: lol, sentence structure.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2009, 03:54:40 PM by Rymosrac »
Shh. My common sense is tingling. . .

Tshern

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Re: Thinking of Redoing Algernon
« Reply #8 on: October 21, 2009, 01:49:46 PM »
Fingers crossed, hope I have the book. Thanks for the info!

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DocRoc

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Re: Thinking of Redoing Algernon
« Reply #9 on: October 24, 2009, 06:31:29 AM »
yeah, what's algernon's trick, i'm curious.

The Algernon trick basically uses Spellguard, an ACF from Favored soul, and a few other bits to cast any and all personal spells through the weave.  The version presented here can also persist them, and can technically store the persisted versions in his or her quiescent weaving.  The original algernon abused legacy champion to get the weave to accept up to 9th level spells, and then share time stop.  It got ugly fast.  There's a similar trick involving Magic of the Land + Spellguard.

The rough version presented in the first post trades Weaveable ninths for free miracles, persisted spells through-out the weave, and the terrifying fact that Initiate of Mystra allows him or her to drop AMF through the weave without knocking out any of the buffs generated by the weave so far.  Because they're still cast by him\her.  In short, you can turn your party into baby <Plural of TBoS>.

The Jacob's Ladder trick abuses the terrible wording of the Dragonsblood pool in complete mage, granting any spontaneous caster of L2 or higher........ a nice juicy arcane spell slot.  If you line it up right, and we can, this spell slot will be of third level which not only gets us into war weaver, but causes it to progress our favored soul casting as we can cast arcane spells as a favored soul now.

I did mean pg 15 of Dragon Magic.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2009, 06:33:13 AM by DocRoc »

Tohron

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Re: Thinking of Redoing Algernon
« Reply #10 on: October 25, 2009, 12:53:26 AM »
yeah, what's algernon's trick, i'm curious.

The Algernon trick basically uses Spellguard, an ACF from Favored soul, and a few other bits to cast any and all personal spells through the weave.  The version presented here can also persist them, and can technically store the persisted versions in his or her quiescent weaving.  The original algernon abused legacy champion to get the weave to accept up to 9th level spells, and then share time stop.  It got ugly fast.  There's a similar trick involving Magic of the Land + Spellguard.

The rough version presented in the first post trades Weaveable ninths for free miracles, persisted spells through-out the weave, and the terrifying fact that Initiate of Mystra allows him or her to drop AMF through the weave without knocking out any of the buffs generated by the weave so far.  Because they're still cast by him\her.  In short, you can turn your party into baby <Plural of TBoS>.

The Jacob's Ladder trick abuses the terrible wording of the Dragonsblood pool in complete mage, granting any spontaneous caster of L2 or higher........ a nice juicy arcane spell slot.  If you line it up right, and we can, this spell slot will be of third level which not only gets us into war weaver, but causes it to progress our favored soul casting as we can cast arcane spells as a favored soul now.

I did mean pg 15 of Dragon Magic.

Won't you still need a Legacy Champion level to put AMF in the weave pre-epic?

DocRoc

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Re: Thinking of Redoing Algernon
« Reply #11 on: October 25, 2009, 09:15:44 PM »
Sanctum spell could be coerced into serving quite easily.