Author Topic: Gestalt musings: A charisma-based gish  (Read 3966 times)

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Tshern

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Gestalt musings: A charisma-based gish
« on: October 17, 2009, 02:35:17 PM »
Okay, I am not sure whether the recommendation (not a hard rule, if I recall correctly) of not allowing theurge classes in gestalt actually affects gish classes, but for the purposes of this thread, I will assume gish classes are allowed.

Due to a certain thread at the WotC's forum and my recent obsession of gestalt/high level gaming caused by the horrendous lack of roleplaying here in my new home country I got inspired this morning. This inspiration lead me to dabble with the possibility of making an Iajitsu Master for the heck of it. This goes for no particular purpose apart from me killing some time and reducing my RP-deficiency. For the sake of the argument, assume all D&D 3.5 and unupdated 3.0 allowed and use 32 point buy.

So this is what I was thinking:

Venerable Dragonwrought Loredrake Desert Kobold

STR 10-4             6
DEX 11+2+6         18
CON 14+6            20
INT 13+3+6          22
WIS 9+3-2           10
CHA 17+3+5+5+6  36

I believe that leaves two points to be distributed wherever you want. It includes +6 enchantment to dexterity, constitution, intelligence and charisma as well as level ups for charisma and +5 inherent bonus to it.

Then to the class levels:

Fighter 1/Factotum 2/Cloistered Cleric 1/Feat Rogue 1/Sorcerer 1/Iajitsu Master 5/Factotum 1/Swordsage 2/Feat Rogue 1/Sorcerer 3/Swordsage 2//Sorcerer 5/Swiftblade 1/Sorcerer 5/Swiftblade 9.

This assumes flaws. At first level go ahead, pick Dodge, Mobility and Dragonwrought at first level. Proceed to get Draconic reservoir at level three. Cloistered Cleric gives Travel devotion, Knowledge devotion and Improved initiative, Iajitsu Master hands out Skill focus (Iajitsu focus). Make sure to use the Feat Rogue and Fighter level to get Quick draw and Weapon focus (katana).

Feat choices would be something along these lines:
-Compulsory: Dragonwrought (level 1), Dodge (flaw), Mobility (flaw), Improved initiative (Time domain), Weapon focus (katana) (Feat Rogue), Quick draw (Fighter), Draconic reservoir and Greater rite of passage. This means the build still has its feats from levels 9, 12, 15 and 18, Travel devotion and Knowledge devotion from Cloistered Cleric and one more from Feat Rogue. Depending on the BAB you want, you might want to start of with Factotum to fill in the skill point prerequisites.

From this point on I would personally use Swordsage's Assassin's stance for Craven and, well, Shadow blade. Use feycraft katanas to get the benefits of Weapon finesse, sunblades come awfully handy here. Divine might doesn't hurt either. Monk's belt+Ascetic mage for those who still feel insecure and Carmendine monk to mix that Swordsage AC bonus to be intelligence based.

So, eventually, you would have charisma score to initiative twice (from Iajitsu Master and Swiftblade), your Iajitsu focus dice (that is to say, 9 times your charisma modifier to damage, more with Divine might) as well as armour class thanks to Ascetic mage. Intelligence modifier applies twice to AC and once to initiative. Dexterity modifier to initiative, damage and attack bonus.

Assume you Shapechange into a gloom. Your dexterity is now 55. Your damage is: base katana damage+9d6+9x13+2d6+20+22+11. This includes STR bonus, Iajitsu damage dice, SA dice, charisma modifier for all Iajitsu dice and dexterity modifier. I trust the build to get plenty of those dice, since the initiative is through the roof.

Okay, sorry, I wrote this in utmost hurry, so there must be errors. I will be back in a bit more than an hour or so. Meanwhile, please comment and improve.



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Tshern

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Re: Gestalt musings: A charisma-based gish
« Reply #1 on: October 17, 2009, 02:36:38 PM »
Forgot to mention that the build aims to be viable at all levels, so distributing the Sorcerer levels so that no CL is lost is important.

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Havok4

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Re: Gestalt musings: A charisma-based gish
« Reply #2 on: October 17, 2009, 03:04:34 PM »
Slippers of battle dancing might be useful if you do not want to spend a feat on shadow blade, but it is hard to full attack while claiming their benefit.

bearsarebrown

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Re: Gestalt musings: A charisma-based gish
« Reply #3 on: October 17, 2009, 03:12:57 PM »
Or Snowflake Wardance.

Tshern

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Re: Gestalt musings: A charisma-based gish
« Reply #4 on: October 17, 2009, 03:55:51 PM »
Snowflake Wardance requires Bardic music, doesn't it? I suppose changing a level for Bard and grabbing Extra music could do that.

And what is the problem with Slippers of Battle Dancing? Could you either give the source or quote the passage?

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Havok4

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Re: Gestalt musings: A charisma-based gish
« Reply #5 on: October 17, 2009, 04:06:40 PM »
The problem with the slippers of battledancing is that they explicitly say that you have to move 10 ft as a move action to get charisma to attack and damage, which means that most of the methods of moving 10 feet and full attacking go out the window. The only way to activate them on a full attack is the swiftblade's perpetual options ability, which is usually better spent casting a spell.

Tshern

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Re: Gestalt musings: A charisma-based gish
« Reply #6 on: October 17, 2009, 04:13:48 PM »
Travel devotion! From the Cleric level!

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Tshern

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Re: Gestalt musings: A charisma-based gish
« Reply #7 on: October 17, 2009, 05:24:10 PM »
An idea: Hit-and-run variant of the Fighter. Anyway that does not work?

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JaronK

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Re: Gestalt musings: A charisma-based gish
« Reply #8 on: October 17, 2009, 05:51:42 PM »
Can you jam the unseelie fey template in there?  -Cha to saves to everyone next to you would be awesome on a gish.  Then launch Wings of Flurry and they can't act (and take lots of damage), and do this in the surprise round so you can then full attack in the first round while they still haven't acted.  Also, don't you want feat Rogue first for the skill points?  You might also consider using a quickrazor or two, as they're far better for Iajuitsu Focus than Katanas (even though you lose Int to AC, it's worth it.  Then again, nothing stops you from holding a Katana and having a razor as well).

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Tshern

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Re: Gestalt musings: A charisma-based gish
« Reply #9 on: October 17, 2009, 06:06:53 PM »
Jaronk, you just made my day... I had totally forgotten about the seasonal powers of the unseelie fey. With this one it would stand at -13 to all adjacent creatures, which, with this AC, is something that should not be neglected.

And yes, Feat Rogue or Factotum should be first for either the skill points or the class skills. I did not make the exact calculations yet, so those are prone to be moved around.

Thanks for the tips and it's nice to see you around.

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The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Gestalt musings: A charisma-based gish
« Reply #10 on: October 17, 2009, 06:09:22 PM »
Daggers work just as well due to sleight of hand
remember to carry around a +1 focus katana - you explicitly don't need to wield it for the +4.

I'd think a combination item familiar/weapon of legacy would be a good source of bonuses to IF.
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Tshern

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Re: Gestalt musings: A charisma-based gish
« Reply #11 on: October 17, 2009, 07:14:40 PM »
Good ideas there. As mentioned, I have but a skeleton ready, so any number of advice is more than welcome. Especially from someone who seems to like myconids.

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Widow

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Re: Gestalt musings: A charisma-based gish
« Reply #12 on: October 18, 2009, 01:49:06 PM »
Another way to get a 10 foot move is with the "Sparing Dummy of the Master" item from the arms and equipment book.  If you are a monk and train with the dummy for some lenght of time, you get to make a 10 foot adjustment instead of 5.  With factotum in your build and high Cha, you should be able to swing the Use Magic Device check to emulate a class.  For your other equipment, you might as well go with a belt of magnifence from the minatures handbook.  For 200k gp, it gives +6 to all stats and does not cost that much more.  Also if you are breaking out the unseelie fey template, check out the bracers of heart felt blows in the Dragon Compendium.  It adds your Cha as fire damage to all your  melee attacks.

You might also be interested in the spell Thunderlance from the spell compendium.  It creates a lance that is 2 feet to 20 feet long that does 3d6 damage and you attack off of Cha (and damage).  There is another spell that is level 1 or 2 in the same book that you can cast on a weapon to change its type.  So you can end up with whatever weapon you want.  This works best with divine metamagic and the alternative spell source feat (dragon 325) that lets you convert your arcane spells to divine, and then apply divine metamagic.  Also look up Ruin Delver's Fortune from the Spell compendium.  That lets you add you cha to one save as an immediate action.

I am currently playing a non-gestalt Cha gish that is a Gloura/Bard/Sublime chord/ Sacred Exorcist.  There are a ton of really good bard spells that can add to your Cha. 

Snowsong from Frostburn adds a +4 Moral bonus to Cha, attack, and +4 insight bonus to AC. 

Nixies grace from the spell compendium can add a +8 enchancement bonus to cha, but not really needed with your +6 item. 

Sirines grace on the other hand adds your Cha as a deflection bonus to your AC.

Inner Beauty from the Abyssal book adds a +4 Sacred bonus to Cha and dex if you have a good alignment.

Transfustion from dragon mag somewhere adds an unlisted +3 to +5 bonus to cha.  Best when used with an elysian thrush summon spell, because you have to impart an equal penalty on other target.

Greater Visage of the Deity is the most difficult of all.  You can gain access to it with arcane disciple and selecting the mysticism domain.  It adds a +4 unlisted bonus to Cha, not to mention +2 or +4 to all your other stats.

These spells might be accessable to your sorcerer if you get one of those dragonshard helms from ebberon that adds any arcane spell to your list.  Some of these spells work much better with divine metamagic.  If you go that route, the nightstick form liber mortis and the requiary holy symbol from the magic compendium give you some cheap extra turnings.

For classes, the battle dancer is a basic class in the dragon magazine compendium.  It works similarly to a monk (although it does not reference the monk so they stack), and lets you add your cha to ac like dex.  This class does require you to be chaotic though.  You could drop the ascetic mage feat then and keep the monk belt to get Wisdom and Cha to AC.  Not sure how the swordsage works with this since his bonus requires you to wear light armor, and monk and battle dancer require no armor.

With access to faerun material, the Mystic Wanderer from Magic of Faerun is also possible.  It requires some weird skills, Iron will, and second level divine spells.  Again you can gain access to these spells with alternate source spell feat.  Mystic wanderer adds cha as a sacred or profane bonus to AC when you are not wearing armor.

Lastly your gloom shapechange maybe out for awhile.  Shapechange says it works like polymorph which limits your form to your HD or caster level, which ever is lower.  But shapechange does not specifically give this limitation.

I hope some of this stuff is useful.

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Re: Gestalt musings: A charisma-based gish
« Reply #13 on: October 18, 2009, 02:55:02 PM »
Another way to get a 10 foot move is with the "Sparing Dummy of the Master" item from the arms and equipment book.

There's also the Cyran Gliding boots, but it's usable only 3 times per day...

Havok4

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Re: Gestalt musings: A charisma-based gish
« Reply #14 on: October 18, 2009, 05:12:11 PM »
Travel devotion! From the Cleric level!

That technically does not activate the slippers unfortunately which was what I was trying to say. Travel devotion allows you to move up to your speed as a swift action. The slippers require you to move at least 10ft as part of a move action, so they do not technically work together.

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Re: Gestalt musings: A charisma-based gish
« Reply #15 on: October 18, 2009, 05:55:08 PM »
Heroic Surge (Dragonlance: Legends of the Twins) can grant you a free move action (no more than once per round) up to five times per day at level 20. 

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Re: Gestalt musings: A charisma-based gish
« Reply #16 on: October 18, 2009, 11:30:55 PM »
The Shadow Blade feat from ToB can only be used with the discipline's preferred weapons (dagger, sai, short sword, spiked chain, siangham or unarmed strike.)

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Re: Gestalt musings: A charisma-based gish
« Reply #17 on: October 18, 2009, 11:34:32 PM »
Travel devotion! From the Cleric level!

That technically does not activate the slippers unfortunately which was what I was trying to say. Travel devotion allows you to move up to your speed as a swift action. The slippers require you to move at least 10ft as part of a move action, so they do not technically work together.
Hustle explicitly grants you a Move action, and is a swift action to manifest. That should work.
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