Author Topic: The Untouchable  (Read 3409 times)

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Balmas

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The Untouchable
« on: October 13, 2009, 07:23:50 PM »
My DM has announced that we are going to be trying out something new; we're going to play a campaign in Greyhawk, starting at 20th level. The only catch is that everyone is a dwarf. The books he has allowed are the PHB, PHBII, the complete series, Tome of Battle, and the Spell Compendium. He has also allowed us to use a third-party sourcebook he found a while back: "Hammer and Helm; a Guidebook to Dwarves." For stats, he's given us a fairly high end array, that of two 18s, two 16s, and two 14s, plus 5 points from levels. Retraining feats is allowed.

What I want is a character that wears heavy armor and wields a tower shield. Here is the build as I've figured:


This build uses the Ironbound Prestige class from Hammer and Helm. It allows a character to make better use of his armor, as well as allowing him to use two shields and gain the benefit from both.
http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Ironbound_%283.5e_Prestige_Class%29

LG Dwarf Knight 11/Ironbound 8/Dwarven Defender 1 (Am considering replacing Dwarven Defender with one level of Crusader)



AC: 65, with an option of +1 Dodge and up to +18 Combat Expertise
The high AC is because this character uses two tower shields, each with their own Shield Block bonuses, mithril mountain plate, and as many AC boosting items as he can find.



HP: a nice even 330. (12+11d12 [Knight and DDf] +8d10 [IrB] +200 [con] +3 [Toughness]



Saves: with Cloak of resistance +5, Fort 26, Reflex +13, Will +26



Stats: Str 34, Dex 18, Con 30, Int 16, Wis 14, Cha 20



Weapons: Unarmed Strike, made +5 through a permanent Greater Magic Fang. +35 to hit, 3d6 +17.



Feats: Combat Expertise, Diehard, Dodge, Endurance, Exotic Armor Proficiency (Dwarven Plate Armor), Improved Natural Attack (Unarmed Strike), Improved Unarmed Strike, Martial Study (Foehammer), Combat Reflexes, Martial Stance (Thicket of Blades), Stand Still, Steadfast Determination, Superior Unarmed Strike, Toughness. (NOTE: Martial Study, Martial Stance, Combat Reflexes, and Toughness were all retrained from the 4 Exotic Armor Proficiencies granted by the Ironbound Class. Stand Still was retrained from the Mounted Combat feat granted by the Knight class.)



Equipment:



Combat gear + Master Stone Dragon Belt Of Giant Strength +6, Scholar Crown of the White Raven, Amulet of Natural Armor+5/Con+6, Gloves of Dexterity +4, Ring of protection +5, Ring of Feather Fall, Cloak of Resistance +5/Charisma +6, Boots of Springing and Striding, +5 Mithril Dwarven Plate, two +5 mithril tower shields, Manual of Str +5, Manual of Con +4.


Any thoughts?
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KellKheraptis

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Re: The Untouchable
« Reply #1 on: October 13, 2009, 07:27:21 PM »
Are you going for straight immovable object?  I would recommend some combination of Crusader and Warblade, since Crusader is what the Knight wishes it could be, and a warblade dip makes everyone you can reach nice and immobile as well.  If you're not too dead-set on the shield, you could be a mountain plate polearm wielder :D  Also means you're a secondary dragoon if you take a couple charge feats.
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snakeman830

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Re: The Untouchable
« Reply #2 on: October 13, 2009, 07:40:19 PM »
What I find funny is that this guy will be incredibly easy to touch (all that heavy armor can't be good for your touch AC), but normal attacks will have difficulty hitting him.  Even the Tarrasque will have some problems in this case.  If you can get MIC approved, you would appriciate the Ghost Ward armor property, as it adds the enhancement bonus to Touch AC as well.  Right now, you're a shiny metal bulls-eye for casters and their ranged touch attacks.
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Rebel7284

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Re: The Untouchable
« Reply #3 on: October 13, 2009, 08:05:56 PM »
Crusader is indeed better than knight at most things.  As I recall there is even a nice defensive dwarf prestige class that advances initiator level. 


If you insist on Ironbound, do take it to 10 to apply some of the armor bonus to touch AC.  Also, use two floating shields so you can smack things with a two handed reach weapon. :)
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Tshern

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Re: The Untouchable
« Reply #4 on: October 13, 2009, 08:09:08 PM »
What's the use of Dwarven Defender? You can't move in the stance, which is not good considering you are not using a reach weapon.

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Balmas

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Re: The Untouchable
« Reply #5 on: October 13, 2009, 08:27:44 PM »
The point of this build is to find a spot and not move, or let others move past him. Stand still combined with Thicket of Blades lets him force pretty much anyone who fails to make a 25-ish reflex save to stop moving. Ideally, this allows him to sit there and keep punching people while being immune to their attacks.

Just thinking here, but if I dropped the level of Dwarven Defender, I could both fit in Crusader, and free up a couple feat slots for Shield Spec and Shield Ward. (Probably drop Endurance and Toughness for 'em.) I know that you can't get Shield Spec for Tower Shield, but Shield Ward doesn't say that the bonus only applies to the shield with which you have Shield Specialization. That should help with the touch spells. Plus, it nets me that first level crusader stance that heals you whenever you hit.

Also, I wasn't expecting four posts in just under an hour.
"You know, in the old days we relied on ingenuity rather than feats, the strength stat used a forward slash as a decimal point, and there were no such things as Drow.

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Rebel7284

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Re: The Untouchable
« Reply #6 on: October 13, 2009, 08:30:32 PM »
reflex save DC 25 at level 20 is made way too easily.  Knight 3 is the level it gets to treat ground as difficult terrain, right?   Stop there and go into crusader.
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Dusk Eclipse

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Re: The Untouchable
« Reply #7 on: October 13, 2009, 08:31:54 PM »
Hmmm wouldn't it be better to select Improved Toughness over Thoughness? Those are 20 HP instead of just 3 that Toughness provides

Sinfire Titan

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Re: The Untouchable
« Reply #8 on: October 13, 2009, 08:34:15 PM »
Quote
The point of this build is to find a spot and not move, or let others move past him. Stand still combined with Thicket of Blades lets him force pretty much anyone who fails to make a 25-ish reflex save to stop moving. Ideally, this allows him to sit there and keep punching people while being immune to their attacks.

Bad news: Turtling does not work. Only a bottleneck situation can pull it off, and that's just far too uncommon to use. Further, optimizing AC to the point where your enemies have to roll a 20 to hit you usually deprives you of either the Attack or Damage department. If you want more information regarding this, take a look in the BLYHT forums for the Sword and Board thread.

The real way to be untouchable while pwning the battlefield at level 20 is to play a Spellcaster. You barely have to try to get an AC in the low 50s. Dwarves make excellent casters to boot.


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Balmas

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Re: The Untouchable
« Reply #9 on: October 13, 2009, 09:15:41 PM »
>Rebel 7284: I chose knight more for its defensive capabilities than for its battlefield control. I stopped at Knight 11 because that's where you get Shield Block +2.

>Dusk Eclipse: Yes, Improved Toughness is better than Toughness. However, the only reason I took Toughness was so I could qualify for Dwarven Defender.

> The beauty of this build is that it is actually a competent moving wall without needing to sacrifice attack or damage. The goal is to get in there, get next to the opponent, and keep them from moving away from you while being almost immune to their attacks.

Yes, I know. Spellcasters win. However, I don't want to play a spellcaster this time around. And really, AC 50 really isn't anything at the higher levels. Any 20th level Fighter or CR 20 monster would be able to hit it half the time.
"You know, in the old days we relied on ingenuity rather than feats, the strength stat used a forward slash as a decimal point, and there were no such things as Drow.

"I miss the old days." ~Thaco, Goblins


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JaronK

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Re: The Untouchable
« Reply #10 on: October 13, 2009, 09:32:37 PM »
Actually, it's possible to turtle, but it requires more sources than are given here.  The Henchman class (see here: http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871710/Chicken_Infested_Basket_Weaving_BAH_Try_Henchman?num=10&pg=1 ) can make it work with the Soak and Monster Bait abilities, and if your first level is Commoner you can take the Tasty flaw to make enemies hit you.  Combine this with a high con and solid defenses (Mineral Warrior Water Orc?) plus Crusader levels and you can actually turtle effectively, since you just heal yourself and can take all kinds of punishment.  The trick is you need to force enemies to attack you, and that's not easy.

I'm actually playing a build like this right now, and even going so far as to have a shield (Shield Slam rocks!).  So yeah, it can be done... it's just not easy.

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Carborane

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Re: The Untouchable
« Reply #11 on: October 13, 2009, 09:34:23 PM »
You could always try Robilar's Gambit to get them to hit you more.

ninjarabbit

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Re: The Untouchable
« Reply #12 on: October 13, 2009, 09:37:44 PM »
I know you don't want to be a spellcaster but try this build anyways:

fighter1/wizard4/runesmith2/spellsword1/abjurantchampion5/wizard2/eldritchknight5 and continue taking runesmith levels in epic

16 BAB, 18 CL, casts in full armor, and you can uses spells to achieve a similar effect without the suck while maintaining flexibility

Dusk Eclipse

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Re: The Untouchable
« Reply #13 on: October 13, 2009, 11:52:43 PM »
>Dusk Eclipse: Yes, Improved Toughness is better than Toughness. However, the only reason I took Toughness was so I could qualify for Dwarven Defender.

Since both of the feat give the same benefit (Extra HP) maybe you can ask your DM to let you qualify for Dwarven Defender using Improved Toughness

Maat_Mons

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Re: The Untouchable
« Reply #14 on: October 14, 2009, 12:03:33 AM »
He's running an all dwarf campaign without Races of Stone?  Odd. 

Since dwarven plate is just adamantine full plate (and is specifically stated to be such in its description), I don't think it can be mithral. 

If you take 2 levels in swordsage and switch wis with cha, you can get an extra +4 to AC.  Going from shield block +1 to shield block +2 is a 9 level investment.  Even with the bonus doubled, +2 AC isn't worth 9 levels.  Have you considered the whirling frenzy variant barbarian?  It loses the con bonus and AC penalty and adds a +2 dodge bonus to AC.  Even if you have to take fighter levels to offset taking extra rage, it's a better return on investment than knight. 

I think the ability that lets you use 2 shields at once would also let you benefit from 2 animated shields at once.  If you have access to magic vestment, you would only need +3 equivalent shields. 

woodenbandman

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Re: The Untouchable
« Reply #15 on: October 14, 2009, 12:30:25 AM »
Really why no Races of Stone?

Also, I suggest you ditch dwarven defender and knight in favor of Crusader. Your AC of 65 isn't doing you any favors, as you have stupid high HP and little damage output. I suggest if you want to become unhittable, you use the Robilar's Gambit + Evasive Reflexes combination.

Flay Crimsonwind

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Re: The Untouchable
« Reply #16 on: October 14, 2009, 04:41:40 AM »
Anyone think the addition of that dwarf PrC from ToB might be fun to mess with people moving past him? I seem to recall a stance that made moving around him at all problematic...

Tonymitsu

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Re: The Untouchable
« Reply #17 on: October 14, 2009, 01:54:39 PM »
Deepstone Sentinel is what you're thinking about.  Though I only looked it over briefly the class seemed pretty weak to me.

First of all, this class (as a whole) can't affect creatures that fly.... at all.  Aside from likely half the monsters that are available, that means any time you fight any arcane caster with half a working brain you are going to be in big trouble.

Second even your ability to affect creatures that are on the ground isn't really all that impressive.
-Mountain Fortress Stance is basically a grease spell that you are immune to and follows you.  A Knight's ability to make squares he threatens, not just adjacent ones, difficult terrain is much more effective, with the added detriment that this stance affects your allies too.  The best part about this is you can get yourself surrounded and make all of them flat-footed, allowing sneak attacks, which really isn't anything more than the party caster can do.

-Crashing Mountain Juggernaut also affects your allies, and lets above mentioned adjacent creatures make an easy Balance Check or fall prone, and lets you charge an adjacent enemy for an extra 2d6 damage (as the normal full round action).  Frankly I'd want that more in a charger build than a tank build.  In addition, once the enemies have their round your difficult terrain is gone and they can all simply stand up and walk away.

-Having two Stone Dragon stances up at once is nice, because only one of them is really useful for tanking, (and the other one is being used for Mountain Fortress Stance which the entire class revolves around).  But they all end if you move so you aren't good at catching runners.

-Stone Curse.  Ugh.  Again flying creatures laugh at you.  And it's an immediate action which means you can only affect one enemy per round with this.  It's essentially a save-or-fight only melees for one enemy. 

-Dragon's Tooth is a Ref save or fall prone to one enemy within 60 feat, which is silly if there's no one there to attack him when he's getting up.  But I could see this being a decent-to-terrible tactical battlefield control ability.  A 10 foot tall, 5 foot wide pillar of stone could break line of sight between a caster an an enemy, giving someone in your party cover.  The fact that they remain on the field allows you to slowly build a wall that you can sectionally dismiss and rebuild at will.  However as this takes a standard action wall-building is all you'll be doing.  Once again, flying enemies laugh at you.  The truly terrible part about this ability is it doesn't function on worked stone.

-Awaken the Stone Dragon is another knockdown that, thankfully, only it affects enemies in 60 ft and does 12d6 damage. Ref save for half damage and to stay standing.  Aside from flying creatures still laughing at you, this encounters the other problem of knocking people down is typically meaningless if there's no one there to beat them as they stand up.  This ability is also Ref save negates vs anyone with a ring of evasion.  Keep in mind that since this is a swift action once per encounter, you aren't using it on the first round since you have to set up your terrain stance.

-This class also has 3/4 BAB, which boggles the mind, and you only get maneuvers from the Stone Dragon stance, which are not terribly impressive for tanking.  At least compared to Devoted Spirit.

Balmas

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Re: The Untouchable
« Reply #18 on: October 14, 2009, 03:45:45 PM »
No Races of Stone because I forgot to put it down. It's allowed.

So, lose Dwarven defender in favor of Crusader. That frees up... four feat slots I think... to trade for Evasive Reflexes, Robilar's Gambit, Shield Ward (Heavy Shield), and Shield Spec.

I'm not using the Dwarven Plate as found in the DMG. I'm using the Dwarven plate as found in Hammer and Helm, which is crazy good. +10 AC with a max dexterity of +2, with an armor check penalty of -6. It's the armor that full plate wants to be.

The henchman may just be the best turtle dip ever. Can you picture a Locke Downe build with that? "Lessee, if you attack me, I win." "So he doesn't attack you." "Too bad for you, he has to."
"You know, in the old days we relied on ingenuity rather than feats, the strength stat used a forward slash as a decimal point, and there were no such things as Drow.

"I miss the old days." ~Thaco, Goblins


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SorO_Lost

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Re: The Untouchable
« Reply #19 on: October 14, 2009, 07:49:52 PM »
Race of Stone has a PrC that adds the dwarf's wisdom to attack/damage for a single level dip. Forgot which one though.
Going off JaronK's mention of Shield Slam, it is a great feat. It single handled creates a reason to buy shield spikes and forgo even using a traditional weapon.
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