Author Topic: Improve the Spiner (a totemist/targetteer swift hunter with or without kensai)  (Read 5098 times)

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Brainpiercing

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I've been looking to building a strong ranged character for a while.

Now while browsing about I looked at the Totemist. And the Swift Hunter. And the Kensai. (I don't know if anything like this has been posted before, in any case I am posting this without knowing the resource). Let's just assume I'm using the Kensai on the same basis that i could add it to a Mindblade. Also, Kensai states that it can enchant natural weapons. I assume this will work. I'm also assuming I only need one enhancement for all the spines, since I'm enhancing the "launcher".

And voila, The Spiner

The trick: Basically it's a Swift Hunter that applies Kensai weapon bonuses to his Manticore belt given spine volley. Note that the spine volley isn't actually a volley, since it requires one attack roll per spine, but it uses full AB on every attack, which is nice, and you can get up to 12 spines at Lvl 18.

The build:This build is unfortunately not optimal any longer, since the splitting enchantment is illegal on the Manticore Belt
Azurin Planar Ranger1/Totemist2/Hit&Run Fighter 2/Scout1/Kensai3 (or 4, depending on whether I need to add +1 before Splitting)/Scout+3/Ranger+5(using the Urban companion from Cityscape Web)/Kensai rest for total +6 enhancements. I may kill some more ranger for more Kensai.

Feats:
PBS, Precise Shot, Expanded Soulmeld capacity(manticore belt), Combat Expertise, WF(Spine Volley), Bonus Essentia x2, Swift Hunter, Improved Skirmish(b), Endurance (b), Rapid shot (Ranger),Improved Precise Shot, Manyshot(Ranger), Share Soulmeld (tentative as of now)



What this gives us:
6 Spines fired at full BAB, with splitting 12; 5d6/+4AC skirmish; +6 enhancements on the spines. Dex to damage vs. flat-footed opponents; Also, the familiar-companion shares the manticore belt for another 6 spines, albeit without anhancements nor bonuses, nor skirmish, unless my DM is stupid :).


The remaining problems are: Can I improve skirmish range, and possibly damage? Can I do something better with the ranger levels? Is anything blatantly illegal?

And can someone tell me that I've totally missed another great feature from someplace else?

Available sources
Basically everything WotC. The trouble with that is: I don't have dragon mags, but my DM has, and I'm away at the moment, so I can't ask him for him. That's why I didn't include dragon mags as of  now.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2009, 03:08:35 PM by Brainpiercing »

Tonymitsu

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Re: Improve the Spiner (a swift hunter)
« Reply #1 on: October 13, 2009, 02:08:50 PM »
Sniper Shot?

casts as a swift, lets you apply sneak attack damage regardless of the distance between you and your target for one round.

Just ask your DM to let you change that to "precision damage".

decent in a wand, use-activated, or continuous item I suppose  :)

EDIT:  I couldn't tell if you noted this in your damage or not but Greater Manyshot from XPH lets you apply skirmish damage to each arrow you fire.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2009, 02:11:10 PM by Tonymitsu »

Brainpiercing

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Re: Improve the Spiner (a swift hunter)
« Reply #2 on: October 13, 2009, 02:22:11 PM »
I'm not even using Manyshot, I'm using the Manticore Belt bound to the totem chakra. The manyshots are bonus, I could even take TWF style, because you get those feats, but I have no means of using them.

I've been trying to find a feat equivalent of close combat shot (or is that a feat? I know the soulbow class feature).

Actually screw Share soulmeld, Woodland Archer is much more important. Although I could try to buy a DCFS around level 15 to swap my worthless ranger feats.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2009, 02:42:53 PM by Brainpiercing »

bearsarebrown

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Re: Improve the Spiner (a swift hunter)
« Reply #3 on: October 13, 2009, 02:59:01 PM »
Drop the Swift Hunter and go Swift Ambusher with Craven? Not sure if it works, just throwing the idea out there.

BAB doesn't matter for amount of attacks right, because of Belt? so rogue wouldn't be THAT bad, and you're already counting on catching them flatfooted sometimes.

there is also the Dragon Mag feat called Dead Eye, which gives Dex to damage on ranged, requires Weapon Focus and 4 BAB I think.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2009, 03:01:12 PM by bearsarebrown »

Shadowhunter

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Re: Improve the Spiner (a swift hunter)
« Reply #4 on: October 13, 2009, 04:56:11 PM »
It used to require BAB 14.
Now it's 1. You dropped the wrong number :p

Speaking of Dragon Magazines, there's always the good 'ol targeteer in 310.

Do check this out first:
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5920.msg196043#msg196043


On a sidenote, I seem to do nothing but promoting Dex-based ranged characters around here. :rollseyes
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BowenSilverclaw

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Re: Improve the Spiner (a swift hunter)
« Reply #5 on: October 13, 2009, 05:52:49 PM »
Flight should be pretty easy to get.
Paired with Flyby Attack that could help avoiding ending up in Melee to much, if you decide to get Deadeye (seeing as you need to be withing 30ft. of the target to use it).

And Plus Fucking One on Targetteer for the Vital Aim ability :)
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Anklebite

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Re: Improve the Spiner (a swift hunter)
« Reply #6 on: October 14, 2009, 03:07:28 AM »
bonus essentia is not a repeatable feat, if I recall correctly.
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Surreal

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Re: Improve the Spiner (a swift hunter)
« Reply #7 on: October 14, 2009, 04:39:38 AM »
In a slightly different direction: use Dragon Devotee to advance skirmish and gain a touch of sorcerer casting. Then go either Unseen Seer or Soulcaster. The former gives more skirmish, the latter opens up a few more chakras. If you manage to squeeze enough casting in, you might even be able to pick up Arcane Strike to up your damage some more.
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Brainpiercing

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Re: Improve the Spiner (a swift hunter)
« Reply #8 on: October 14, 2009, 04:50:51 AM »
bonus essentia is not a repeatable feat, if I recall correctly.
Really? That sucks, is there any other way to get 6 essentia with only two levels of Totemist? If I recall, one of the cobalt feats gave one essentia, just don't remember which one.

Flight should be pretty easy to get.
Paired with Flyby Attack that could help avoiding ending up in Melee to much, if you decide to get Deadeye (seeing as you need to be withing 30ft. of the target to use it).

And Plus Fucking One on Targetteer for the Vital Aim ability :)
the thing is that releasing the spines is a standard action. And flyby attack just allows "an attack" AFAIK, and not formally splitting my move action.
I think, however, that melee won't be too much of a problem, unless I'm really surrounded. Due to the nature of the offensive measures I can afford to put  basically most of my money into defense. And if someone charges me, then I don't know. I still have my hands free, I could even carry a reach weapon, and maybe somehow pick up combat reflexes.

With the Targetteer, does it replace Str with Dex on ranged attacks? The spines already get 1/2 Str, although there probably won't be a bonus, there.

In a slightly different direction: use Dragon Devotee to advance skirmish and gain a touch of sorcerer casting. Then go either Unseen Seer or Soulcaster. The former gives more skirmish, the latter opens up a few more chakras. If you manage to squeeze enough casting in, you might even be able to pick up Arcane Strike to up your damage some more.
That's something I never thought about. I'll look into that, right now. thanks. Will increase MAD, though, I guess, I'll have to think about it.  However, is Arcane Strike usable on ranged attacks?

I was also think of using that Mystic Ranger, although it slows the Favoured enemy progression. And Moon-Warded Ranger is basically also strictly better than straight ranger, I just have to get all those ACFs past my DM. (Although I have a precedent of him allowing two on the same Character.)

BowenSilverclaw

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Re: Improve the Spiner (a swift hunter)
« Reply #9 on: October 14, 2009, 05:03:14 AM »
Flyby Attack allows for a Standard Action, not just an attack :)

As for Targetteer, yeah, it replaces Strength, and the Dexterity bonus to damage counts as precision damage. I completely forgot about the spines getting half Strength bonus to damage though...
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Maat_Mons

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Re: Improve the Spiner (a swift hunter)
« Reply #10 on: October 14, 2009, 06:30:24 AM »
Savage species has an item called necklace of natural weapons.  It costs 600 gp plus the cost of any weapon enhancements of your choosing and bestows those weapon enhancements on your natural weapons.  It costs extra to have it apply to multiple natural weapons, but since you're figuring the spines are one weapon for enchantment anyway, that doesn't matter.  This can replace or supplement kensai and you can give one to your animal companion too.  

I was looking at factotum to see if the ability to take extra standard actions could be worked in.  If you went whole hog on factotum, you could get 15 extra standard actions per encounter.  The ability doesn't appear to limit you to 1 per round, but a DM probably won't let you launch 192 spines the first round of combat.  Anyway 8 levels of factotum and a few instances of the font of inspiration feat might be good.  

The sighting gloves soulmeld could give you +5 to damage for each spine.  The incarnate avatar (chaos) soulmeld could give you +4 to attack with spines, though there might be a similar effect from another soulmeld.  Can you share multiple soulmelds with your animal companion?  If you're willing to put 3 levels into incarnate, you can get an extra spine (or 2 with splitting) and an extra +1 damage per spine.  
« Last Edit: October 14, 2009, 06:32:52 AM by Maat_Mons »

Brainpiercing

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Re: Improve the Spiner (a swift hunter)
« Reply #11 on: October 14, 2009, 06:56:52 AM »
Hmm, that's interesting.

Some more thoughts:
I can use Targetteer and H&R-Fighter together. One replaces weapon proficiencies and the other armour proficiencies. That's nice, because H&R damage is competence, not precision :).

I'm not sure about gaining flight. Are there soulmelds that gain flight with very little essentia invested? And I mean other than the Manticore belt, but I can't bind that to two chakras anyway.

I still have a problem with skills, I need 5 ranks Diplo for Kensai, not sure where to take them with so few skillpoints. Hmm. I COULD take Martial Rogue for a bonus feat. No wait, I HAVE to do that, anyway, for the third Fighter bonus feat. That's good then, my worries have then been reduced by one.

I still have toubles making it all add up, though. Have to work on that. Most notably, I can't seem to get Swift Hunter by level 12 anymore, and Splitting spines. Since 12 is my probably entry level, that's a bit of a bind.

@Maat_Mons: Great, that's a lot of stuff, it seems my build was a bit short of the mark :).

Brainpiercing

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Re: Improve the Spiner (a swift hunter)
« Reply #12 on: October 14, 2009, 07:50:02 AM »
Unfortunately I have to say that Splitting is illegal on this build, since it has a condition on weapon type. Sad, but true. Well, that puts the damage back into the realistic areas. Well, so now I have to maximise the damage on a single spine.

BowenSilverclaw

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Re: Improve the Spiner (a swift hunter)
« Reply #13 on: October 14, 2009, 09:31:45 AM »
What's the condition if you don't mind me asking, I'm AFB right now...
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Brainpiercing

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Re: Improve the Spiner (a swift hunter)
« Reply #14 on: October 14, 2009, 12:01:42 PM »
What's the condition if you don't mind me asking, I'm AFB right now...
Quote
The splitting ability of a ranged weapon (must
be a bow, crossbow, arrow, or bolt) only functions if its wielder
has the Precise Shot feat.

Interestingly enough I probably COULD apply it to the Necklace of Natural Weapons, because that explicitly ignores the conditions. The example was Throwing and Returning applied to natural weapons, which is just weird.

Hmm.

I've reworked the build accordingly, and for simplicity, here is now my favourite candidate at the moment:

The Magic intensive Spiner:
Azurin
Mystic Moonwarded Ranger 2/Totemist2/Targetteer H&R Fighter2/Scout4/Mystic Ranger rest

Feats: PBS, Precise Shot, Expanded Soulmeld capacity(manticore belt), Vital Aim(Targetteer ability), Bonus Essentia, Swift Hunter (CS), Improved Skirmish (b)(CS), Improved Precise Shot,Endurance (b), Woodland Archer (RotW), Evasion(Ranger),Azure Enmity (+1 Essentia); I guess I would try to buy a DCFS to get rid of Endurance for Practiced Spellcaster.

This somes out at 18BAB,  5th level spells with CL14, 3 favoured enemies, +6D6/+6AC on a 20ft Skirmish, and 6 Spines. Depending on the DM you can use Splitting with the Necklace or not, and depending on the DM you'll have to pay a crapload of cash (each spine seperately) or not. I would argue that the launcher is the weapon, but I would not count on your DM to agree once he sees the damage output.

bearsarebrown

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Re: Improve the Spiner (a swift hunter)
« Reply #15 on: October 14, 2009, 05:21:22 PM »
Six spines, and have the Necklace of Natural Attacks to make then Splitting... and the character has a Dex of 32.(17+4 racial +4 levels + 6 item)

Air Goblin (Hit and Run Targeteer Fighter 2/ Scout 4/ Rogue 1/ Ranger Y / Totemist X)

Vital Aim from Targeteer for 1/2 Dex to damage.
Hit and Run for Dex to damage if flatfooted.
Dead Eye for Dex to damage.
Craven for +20 damage if you land a sneak attack (thats why you want the one sneak attack, and you're already trying to attack flatfooted anyways because of Hit and Run)

1d6 + 5 (vital aim) + 11 (HnR) + 11 (dead eye) + 20 (craven) + 5d6 Skirmish + 1d6 Sneak Attack +1 enchantment (assuming on the Skirmish, you could probably fit a lot more)
One spine deals 7d6 + 48. 6 Spines, each doubled. 84d6 + 576! Granted, this is almost all precision damage...


EDIT: dope, thanks, that seems obvious now
« Last Edit: October 14, 2009, 05:46:01 PM by bearsarebrown »

Brainpiercing

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Re: Improve the Spiner (a swift hunter)
« Reply #16 on: October 14, 2009, 05:33:58 PM »
Where are you getting 6 spines from? You can only invest 4 essentia, then Expanded Soulmend makes that 5... were is the other one?
Totemists get +1 Essentia to their totem binds at second level, and even more subsequently.

Brainpiercing

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Re: Improve the Spiner (a swift hunter)
« Reply #17 on: October 15, 2009, 11:41:50 AM »
I got some more on the Mystic Ranger build:

I noticed I had forgotten the bonus feat from my second Targeteer level, and this now becomes: WF(Crossbow). And at level 12 I can't take Improved Precise shot, because I don't have BAB 11, so that will become Crossbow Sniper.

And the Necklace will have to hold an Aptitude enhancement now, which means I can skirmish within 60ft and get to add half my Dex again to damage.

woodenbandman

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Re: Improve the Spiner (a swift hunter)
« Reply #18 on: October 15, 2009, 12:28:23 PM »
In case you haven't noticed, Manticore Belt makes no mention at all of being a weapon of any sort, and since the magic-soulmeld transparency applies, and in Complete Arcane weaponlike spells are described, I have to conclude from the mention of it not being a weapon that it is a weaponlike spell and thus ineligible for your kensai signature weapon ability.

I wish it would mention being a ranged weapon so I can apply Sighting Gloves boosts to it.

Brainpiercing

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Re: Improve the Spiner (a swift hunter)
« Reply #19 on: October 15, 2009, 01:08:29 PM »
I think it's quite clear that it's supposed to be a natural weapon, since the Manticore's spike attack is the obvious base model, and that's a natural weapon, in spite of being an extraordinary special attack. There are other soulmelds that grant natural attacks and don't specifically say they are natural weapons.

There are also other precedents for being able to do all attacks without the -2 for multi-attack, or even -5.

At least I read it that way. I mean it shoots physical things at people. By strict reading of the transparency, every natural attack, etc. would allow spell resistance, and I can't imagine that to be practical, nor intended.