Author Topic: Artificer, Initiate of Mystra [Initiate]?  (Read 6784 times)

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LargePrime

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Artificer, Initiate of Mystra [Initiate]?
« on: October 12, 2009, 03:27:19 PM »
Players Guide to Faerun p81 has the Initiate of Mystra feat.  Requires "Cleric level 3rd, patron deity Mystra."
 
Benefit:  You can attempt to cast spells even within a dead magic zone or an antimagic field. In a dead magic zone, you must make a successful caster level check against a DC equal to 20 + the level of the spell you are trying to cast. In an antimagic ?eld, you must make a successful caster level check against a DC equal to 11 + the caster level of the antimagic ?eld. If this check is successful, your spell functions normally.

Can an Artificer use this to make his Magic Items work in an AMF?  How would you work it?

bearsarebrown

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Re: Artificer, Initiate of Mystra [Initiate]?
« Reply #1 on: October 12, 2009, 03:45:36 PM »
No. It clearly says "...cast spells..." Simply put, using a magic item is not casting a spell.

 I see an argument in letting him create items in a AMF however.

Desca

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Re: Artificer, Initiate of Mystra [Initiate]?
« Reply #2 on: October 12, 2009, 05:13:59 PM »
No. It clearly says "...cast spells..." Simply put, using a magic item is not casting a spell.

 I see an argument in letting him create items in a AMF however.

Yes, but if an item is created in an AMF, a DM could rule that it should work.

Lenient DM, potentially broken.

shandiris

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Re: Artificer, Initiate of Mystra [Initiate]?
« Reply #3 on: October 12, 2009, 05:18:01 PM »
The mix of Faerun and Ebberon in this case, is also theoritical at best, since both the feat and artificer are powerhouses and don't fit in either campaign world very well.

pinewoodpine

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Re: Artificer, Initiate of Mystra [Initiate]?
« Reply #4 on: October 12, 2009, 10:51:00 PM »
Depends on how your DM rule it really.

Personally, I agree with Bear there that activating a magic item is not the same as casting a spell.

But it IS broken anyway, if allowed, since this would mean the DM would have to allow using a magic item in an Anti-Magic field.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2009, 10:55:04 PM by pinewoodpine »

LargePrime

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Re: Artificer, Initiate of Mystra [Initiate]?
« Reply #5 on: October 12, 2009, 11:51:51 PM »
Thanks for the feedback all! Second post and you all are treating me with kid gloves.
No. It clearly says "...cast spells..." Simply put, using a magic item is not casting a spell.

I see an argument in letting him create items in a AMF however.
Yes, but if an item is created in an AMF, a DM could rule that it should work.

Lenient DM, potentially broken.
This is what I was thinking.  If the spells to make the item work in an AMF, then...
The mix of Faerun and Ebberon in this case, is also theoritical at best, since both the feat and artificer are powerhouses and don't fit in either campaign world very well.
ECS8 "Ten Rules you need to know" Rule 1.  It Fits...
Depends on how your DM rule it really.

Personally, I agree with Bear there that activating a magic item is not the same as casting a spell.

But it IS broken anyway, if allowed, since this would mean the DM would have to allow using a magic item in an Anti-Magic field.
How it that so different from allowing the Casting of spells in an AMF.  Assuming the group allows the feat in the first place, how is it a big deal? Say one casts continual flame on an appropriate item while in an AMF.  Assume the CL check works.  Does the new item work?  What happens it it enters a new AMF?

Bozwevial

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Re: Artificer, Initiate of Mystra [Initiate]?
« Reply #6 on: October 13, 2009, 12:06:53 AM »
In a word? No.

First, an artificer doesn't actually cast spells. At all. He has infusions, which function in similar ways at times and even duplicate spells, but they're not spells, in much the same way that saccharin is very similar to sugar but isn't actually sugar.

Second, activating an item, whether or not it was created in an antimagic field, is also not casting a spell. Thus, the feat doesn't apply. (The creation of items in an AMF is its own problem, and one that requires a little interpretation to determine whether a caster simply expends the slot or actually casts the spell.)

Now, I can see how a lenient DM might allow this. However, going by RAW, it's useless for the artificer (who really shouldn't be in Faerun anyway--I can vouch from personal experience).

LargePrime

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Re: Artificer, Initiate of Mystra [Initiate]?
« Reply #7 on: October 13, 2009, 12:52:53 AM »
Now, I can see how a lenient DM might allow this. However, going by RAW, it's useless for the artificer (who really shouldn't be in Faerun anyway--I can vouch from personal experience).
Ignore the Artificer for a moment.  What about a cleric with Item Creation?

Bozwevial

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Re: Artificer, Initiate of Mystra [Initiate]?
« Reply #8 on: October 13, 2009, 12:55:56 AM »
Now, I can see how a lenient DM might allow this. However, going by RAW, it's useless for the artificer (who really shouldn't be in Faerun anyway--I can vouch from personal experience).
Ignore the Artificer for a moment.  What about a cleric with Item Creation?

Activating the item--even if you created it--isn't casting a spell. A cleric crafting an item in an AMF might be able to use this to craft the item unheeded by the AMF. It still wouldn't function in the AMF, but the feat might allow him to "cast" the spells subsumed in the item's creation, assuming your DM views item creation as "casting" spells.

LargePrime

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Re: Artificer, Initiate of Mystra [Initiate]?
« Reply #9 on: October 13, 2009, 01:08:28 AM »
ok... How about the Continual Flame in an AMF example?

Anklebite

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Re: Artificer, Initiate of Mystra [Initiate]?
« Reply #10 on: October 13, 2009, 02:12:38 AM »
ok... How about the Continual Flame in an AMF example?
the spell works, but if it were a continual flame torch instead it would get turned off.
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LargePrime

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Re: Artificer, Initiate of Mystra [Initiate]?
« Reply #11 on: October 13, 2009, 02:21:36 AM »
ok... How about the Continual Flame in an AMF example?
the spell works, but if it were a continual flame torch instead it would get turned off.
How are you perceiving a difference between the spell and the torch?  The spell creates a permanent effect we call a torch, right?

Anklebite

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Re: Artificer, Initiate of Mystra [Initiate]?
« Reply #12 on: October 13, 2009, 02:26:40 AM »
ok... How about the Continual Flame in an AMF example?
the spell works, but if it were a continual flame torch instead it would get turned off.
How are you perceiving a difference between the spell and the torch?  The spell creates a permanent effect we call a torch, right?
and for some reason the torch is 20gp cheaper. dunno why, but it is. whoever is crafting those things is literally selling at a loss.

the difference is, you can CAST SPELLS in antimagic, but magic items function the same as they always have.  if you need an in-game explaination, then it is because you have to adapt the threads of the weave to each specific situation, or something like that.  if you can find a DM who will house rule that magic items made by someone with the feat work in AMF, then more power to you.  now you don't even need the tinfoil hat trick to deal with antimagic.

and as a sidenote, artificer infusions are not covered by the feat.  it is probably a very reasonable house rule, but by RAW it is unaffected.
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Tonymitsu

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Re: Artificer, Initiate of Mystra [Initiate]?
« Reply #13 on: October 13, 2009, 03:38:05 AM »
Not to throw gasoline on smoldering embers but...

D20srd:
Quote
By contrast, spell completion items are treated like spells in combat and do provoke attacks of opportunity.

And in addition:

Quote from: Rules Compendium, pg 85
Effect: A spell successfully activated from a scroll works exactly like a spell cast the normal way.


This would seem to indicate that an artificer (or anyone capable of using a scroll) with the Initiate of Mystra feat would be allowed a check to see if he could get a scroll, and only a scroll, to function in an AMF.

Anklebite

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Re: Artificer, Initiate of Mystra [Initiate]?
« Reply #14 on: October 13, 2009, 10:50:51 AM »
Not to throw gasoline on smoldering embers but...

D20srd:
Quote
By contrast, spell completion items are treated like spells in combat and do provoke attacks of opportunity.

And in addition:

Quote from: Rules Compendium, pg 85
Effect: A spell successfully activated from a scroll works exactly like a spell cast the normal way.


This would seem to indicate that an artificer (or anyone capable of using a scroll) with the Initiate of Mystra feat would be allowed a check to see if he could get a scroll, and only a scroll, to function in an AMF.

huh, quite true.   so can activate a scroll in an AMF.
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LargePrime

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Re: Artificer, Initiate of Mystra [Initiate]?
« Reply #15 on: October 13, 2009, 02:53:08 PM »
and as a sidenote, artificer infusions are not covered by the feat.  it is probably a very reasonable house rule, but by RAW it is unaffected.
ECS31 "[Infusions] function just like spells and follow all the rules for spells." So, Prima Facie, this feat is a rule effects spells, and it effects infusions the same way.
This would seem to indicate that an artificer (or anyone capable of using a scroll) with the Initiate of Mystra feat would be allowed a check to see if he could get a scroll, and only a scroll, to function in an AMF.
I look at it in the opposite fashion.  The Scroll is counting as a spell being cast.  The source of the spell being cast is the CREATOR of the Scroll, not the USER if the scroll.  If the Creator had the feat, the scroll may activate in an AMF, else not.

Also while a trigger item does not provoke an AOO, it also functions just like a spell being cast.  As well, if the spell source had the IoM Feat it seems it should activate in an AMF.

Also note you may edit your vote in this poll.  So if anything in this debate moves your thinking, feel free to change it.

bearsarebrown

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Re: Artificer, Initiate of Mystra [Initiate]?
« Reply #16 on: October 13, 2009, 02:54:59 PM »
Also while a trigger item does not provoke an AOO, it also functions just like a spell being cast.  As well, if the spell source had the IoM Feat it seems it should activate in an AMF.

But the item will be deactivated.

LargePrime

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Re: Artificer, Initiate of Mystra [Initiate]?
« Reply #17 on: October 13, 2009, 03:17:52 PM »
Also while a trigger item does not provoke an AOO, it also functions just like a spell being cast.  As well, if the spell source had the IoM Feat it seems it should activate in an AMF.
But the item will be deactivated.
While conciseness is always appreciated, vagueness can set in if one is excessively terse.  So may I say... What?

LargePrime

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Re: Artificer, Initiate of Mystra [Initiate]?
« Reply #18 on: October 21, 2009, 04:50:49 PM »
and as a sidenote, artificer infusions are not covered by the feat.  it is probably a very reasonable house rule, but by RAW it is unaffected.
Wait!  Infusions work just like spells and follow all the rules for spells.  This feat effects spells, thus it effects infusions the same way, right?

bearsarebrown

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Re: Artificer, Initiate of Mystra [Initiate]?
« Reply #19 on: October 21, 2009, 04:56:33 PM »
Also while a trigger item does not provoke an AOO, it also functions just like a spell being cast.  As well, if the spell source had the IoM Feat it seems it should activate in an AMF.
But the item will be deactivated.
While conciseness is always appreciated, vagueness can set in if one is excessively terse.  So may I say... What?

You won't be able to pull the gun on the trigger because the gun will be turned off.

The trigger is... a spell trigger. The gun is the item. The AMF turned the gun off. Even though bullets may be fired in AMFs, your gun isn't working.