Author Topic: New gestalt game  (Read 6456 times)

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daken201

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New gestalt game
« on: October 10, 2009, 03:53:45 AM »
ok the dm has changed a rule in the gestalt game... he removed the rule about Prc's on both sides at the same time

hmmm..... i just had an evilgasm. :smirk :devil

So anyone have any ideas on how best to use this non restriction?


Emy

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Re: New gestalt game
« Reply #1 on: October 10, 2009, 04:16:01 AM »
I'd use it to make use of a PrC that's usually not a very good idea. Like Yathrinshee, or... what's your starting level?

If it's above 8 or so, I'd do Vampire LA 8/Lifedrinker 9/Master Vampire 1/Divine Oracle 2 on one "side", and a standard magey type build on the other, say Wizard 5/Incantatrix 10/War Weaver 5, lining up the lost caster level from War Weaver with the MV level or one of the DO ones. Flavor!

artificer/psi-artificer still takes the cake in my book.

I think that qualifies as tier sqrt(-1)
« Last Edit: October 10, 2009, 04:26:38 AM by Emy »

Paradox

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Re: New gestalt game
« Reply #2 on: October 10, 2009, 04:24:05 AM »
artificer/psi-artificer still takes the cake in my book.

Rebel7284

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Re: New gestalt game
« Reply #3 on: October 10, 2009, 05:29:56 AM »
Starting level and preferred general direction would be nice.  I am always partial to dweometerkeeper//incantatrix especially with ways to get extra actions :)
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ksbsnowowl

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Re: New gestalt game
« Reply #4 on: October 10, 2009, 05:48:22 AM »
Planar Shepherd + Incantatrix?
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KellKheraptis

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Re: New gestalt game
« Reply #5 on: October 10, 2009, 08:24:04 AM »
Give me a little while, and I'll give you a double 9 arcane archer abusing swift hunter dragoon :)

EDIT : Delivered as promised -
[spoiler]1)Fighter 1/Wizard 1
2)Fighter 2/Wizard 2
3)Lion Totem Barb 1/Wizard 3
4)Ranger 1/Wizard 4
5)Crusader 1/Wizard 5
6)Scout 1/Abjurant Champion 1
7)Scout 2/Abjurant Champion 2
8)Scout 3/Abjurant Champion 3
9)Ur-Priest 1/Abjurant Champion 4
10)Ur-Priest 2/Abjurant Champion 5
11)Ruby Knight Vindicator 1/Unseen Seer 1
12)Ruby Knight Vindicator 2/Unseen Seer 2
13)Ruby Knight Vindicator 3/Unseen Seer 3
14)Ruby Knight Vindicator 4/Unseen Seer 4
15)Ruby Knight Vindicator 5/Unseen Seer 5
16)Ruby Knight Vindicator 6/Unseen Seer 6
17)Ruby Knight Vindicator 7/Unseen Seer 7
18)Ruby Knight Vindicator 8/Mindbender 1
19)Ruby Knight Vindicator 9/Arcane Archer 1
20)Ruby Knight Vindicator 10/Arcane Archer 2

BAB 20
Divine CL of YIKES
Arcane CL of 20 (18th casting)[/spoiler]
You should have plenty of feats available to snag all the usual Dragoon antics, and heroics and mirror nove for any you're missing.  Three feats will get you persistent buffs, and one polymorph will massively add to your repertoire of maneuvers (valkyrie).  Use that giant block of feats at the beginning to snag prerequisites (I recommend Power Attack from Overwhelming Force style for the ranger fighting style), being sure to use Martial Wizard.  Proceed to buff up and own face as a perfect maneuverability diving nuke, or sit back and fill the enemy full of arrows with that sick skirmish damage that will apply to anything with arcane ability (which at high level gesault is everything), or play GOD, with two different spell lists and extra swift actions.  Oh, and good luck sneaking up, thanks to both persistent Foresight and Mindsight.  Combining some of those healing maneuvers with a dragoon strike would be pretty sweet too, as your IL will easily be high enough to snag the best maneuvers that Shadow Hand, Devoted Spirit, and White Raven have to offer (I think those are the main three an RKV gets...), and if nothing else, they are observable, so a valid target for mirror move.  If you want more raw power, I'll adapt my Ultimate Mage for gesault...but be ready for DMG dodging.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2009, 08:45:10 AM by KellKheraptis »
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Amadi

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Re: New gestalt game
« Reply #6 on: October 10, 2009, 10:41:16 AM »
Planar Shepherd + Incantatrix?

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daken201

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Re: New gestalt game
« Reply #7 on: October 10, 2009, 11:01:46 AM »
starting at level 2 and using the pathfinder races. i was thinking eather a Melee monster abusing warhulk and frenzy berserker or bear warrior or a shadowcraft mage like gnome (sub level)
wizard5 shadowcrafter 5 shadowcraft mage 10//scorcerer5 incantrix 10 x5

daken201

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Re: New gestalt game
« Reply #8 on: October 10, 2009, 12:56:41 PM »
oh yea... did i forget to mention that this is an evil campaign?

Maat_Mons

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Re: New gestalt game
« Reply #9 on: October 10, 2009, 05:31:35 PM »
a double 9 arcane archer abusing swift hunter dragoon

KellKheraptis

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Re: New gestalt game
« Reply #10 on: October 10, 2009, 06:30:12 PM »
a double 9 arcane archer abusing swift hunter dragoon

To my knowledge the only theurge classes not allowed in gesault are the explicit ones (e.g. Mystic Theurge, Arcane Hierophant, etc.).  Abjurant Champion is NOT a theurge class, period.  By your reasoning Eldritch Knight must be a theurge class because it progresses spellcasting with full BAB.  Same with Unseen Seer.  That is straight hogwash.  The initial concept was spelled out in the beginning and the build fulfills that without any overt cheese, other than assuming Prestige Paladin fulfills the requisite for the adaptation of Ur-Priest.  Though if people are going to get this picky about PrC's in gesault, I just might gesault my ultimate mage and recommend that.  The DM even said to pull out all the stops, and the build above is me keeping the kid gloves on.  Keeping things reasonable is one thing (i.e. no Ultimate Magus fast progressing Wizard or the like, or Foclucan Lyrist up one side for Full BAB, 2 good saves, etc to get FB on the other), but outwardly eliminating the primary gish PrC's and their adjoining abilities when the DM allows PrC's on both sides is rediculous.

Understand Maat_Mons that this isn't an attack at your criticism, but an attempt to make sense of an utterly senseless restriction.  I'll have the Ultimate Gesault Mage posted later, daken201.

EDIT : For now, assume Wizard 3/War Weaver 5/Legacy Champion 4/Halruuan Elder 5/Incantatrix 3, and Black Ethergaunt up the other side.  Once I get a better progression, that alone will make the world stop spinning on its axis.

EDIT #2: How about-
Wizard 5/Incantatrix 10/Shadowcraft Mage 5
Sorcerer 5/War Weaver 5/Legacy Champion 5/Halruuan Elder 5
Dual arcane 9's, full SCM and Incantatrix tricks, a pre-epic mythal, tons of free metamagic, all the war weaver goodness, Ocular Spell for targetting the tapestry, 8 spells of up to 9th level into the tapestry, Spontaneous Divination if you want it, and all spells keyed off of Silent Image, which you have spontaneous capability for.  Oh, and you're an elf, with the elf sub levels, for rocket tag purposes.  Tell reality to bend over and take its telephone pole up the ass, give Wee-Jas and Nerull the finger once the mythal is up, and laugh maniacally inside it as you are better protected than any Iot7V could ever imagine being, and fling spells that would make a dragoon cry.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2009, 06:53:04 PM by KellKheraptis »
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Maat_Mons

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Re: New gestalt game
« Reply #11 on: October 10, 2009, 07:12:14 PM »
By your reasoning Eldritch Knight must be a theurge class because it progresses spellcasting with full BAB.

Yes, eldritch knight is specifically called out as a class that should be prohibited in gestalt.  See the 3rd bullet point in the Class Features section of the gestalt rules. 

Same with Unseen Seer. 

Yes, pretty much the same, since arcane trickster is also specifically called out as a class that should be prohibited in gestalt and unseen seer is quite similar to arcane trickster. 

Keeping things reasonable is one thing (i.e. no Ultimate Magus fast progressing Wizard or the like, or Foclucan Lyrist up one side for Full BAB, 2 good saves, etc to get FB on the other), but outwardly eliminating the primary gish PrC's and their adjoining abilities when the DM allows PrC's on both sides is rediculous.

I agree that losing access to certain class features is regrettable.  Some DMs may be willing to allow custom prestige classes to add these options back in.  The gestalt rules suggest the possibility of prestige classes that take up both sides of the gestalt progression, which could work well for scaled-up versions of the prohibited classes. 


KellKheraptis

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Re: New gestalt game
« Reply #12 on: October 10, 2009, 07:17:37 PM »
Don't fucking tempt me to make a dual progression version of Ultimate Magus...it will make an Incantatrix look like a Loremaster, and fit the theme of gesault.  And as for those classes being called out specifically...well, I guess channel spell is deemed hideously overpowered and wrong in gesault, as is the ability to sneak attack with a spell, which we can do all in nongesault, all with one single build.  I have to go to the store to get dinner, but when I get back, I'll have both a functional gish posted, and the nightmare wizard from Baator.  Don't say I didn't warn you all  :devil

EDIT : And I'm fighting Abjurant Champion to the death.  It DOES NOT PROGRESS ANYTHING OTHER THAN SPELLCASTING.  EK progresses effective fighter level, or at least did last I knew (but I've been using the PF version for the better part of a month, so that may have been part of the improvement package).  Saying any Full BAB spell progessing class is utter bullshit, pure and simple.  EK has the case going for it that it starts with a fighter feat at least, no such deal with AC.  Unless I see that spelled out unequivocally and explicitly, or explicitly banned by a DM, expect it in my builds.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2009, 07:21:42 PM by KellKheraptis »
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ksbsnowowl

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Re: New gestalt game
« Reply #13 on: October 10, 2009, 07:22:16 PM »
To my knowledge the only theurge classes not allowed in gesault are the explicit ones (e.g. Mystic Theurge, Arcane Hierophant, etc.).  Abjurant Champion is NOT a theurge class, period.  By your reasoning Eldritch Knight must be a theurge class because it progresses spellcasting with full BAB.  Same with Unseen Seer.  That is straight hogwash.  
I'm calling BS on this whole statement.  The gestalt rules quite clearly word it in an open-ended way as to which PrC's are excluded.
Quote
Prestige classes that are essentially class combinations - such as

It's not just casting combination classes.  Any class that is very strongly a means of progressing two different base classes simultaneously.  It even calls out Eldritch Knight specifically, which you apparently didn't know.  And the Unseen Seer is the Arcane Trickster on steroids (better BAB and Skill points, and all else basically the same [one less sneak attack die]), which it also calls out as not allowed with Gestalt.  And if Eldritch Knight isn't allowed, then Abjurant Champion certainly isn't; better HD and spell progression than EK.  Yes, the rule relies heavily on DM interpretation (what is considered a "class that is essentially a class combination?") but very reasonably that includes things like Ruby Knight Vindicator.  They wrote the rule open-ended for a reason; they knew they couldn't possibly list every conceivable class that they would ever produce that was a combo-class.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2009, 07:35:12 PM by ksbsnowowl »
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ksbsnowowl

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Re: New gestalt game
« Reply #14 on: October 10, 2009, 07:31:31 PM »
I agree that losing access to certain class features is regrettable. 
That's why I default to allowing combo classes in gestalt, but they take up both sides of your progression.  The abilities are still there, but they may cost you more.

Quote from: KellKheraptis
And I'm fighting Abjurant Champion to the death.  It DOES NOT PROGRESS ANYTHING OTHER THAN SPELLCASTING.
Neither does Eldritch Knight.  Oh, except you get 1 bonus feat in place of casting progression, and we all know the casting progression is more valuable.

Compare the Abjurant Champion:  Full casting, a HD two steps higher than the EK (d6 vs d10), also one good save (though a different one), same skill points, and four out of five levels grant actual class abilities in addition to spellcasting (not one Eldritch Knight level does that).
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KellKheraptis

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Re: New gestalt game
« Reply #15 on: October 10, 2009, 07:37:28 PM »
To my knowledge the only theurge classes not allowed in gesault are the explicit ones (e.g. Mystic Theurge, Arcane Hierophant, etc.).  Abjurant Champion is NOT a theurge class, period.  By your reasoning Eldritch Knight must be a theurge class because it progresses spellcasting with full BAB.  Same with Unseen Seer.  That is straight hogwash.  
I'm calling BS on this whole statement.  The gestalt rules quite clearly word it in an open-ended way as to which PrC's are excluded.
Quote
Prestige classes that are essentially class combinations - such as

It's not just casting combination classes.  Any class that is very strongly a means of progressing two different base classes simultaneously.  It even calls out Eldritch Knight specifically, which you apparently didn't know.  And the Unseen Seer is the Arcane Trickster on steroids (better HD, BAB, and Skill points, and all else basically the same [one less sneak attack die]), which it also calls out as not allowed with Gestalt.  And if Eldritch Knight isn't allowed, then Abjurant Champion certainly is; better HD and spell progression than EK.  Yes, the rule relies heavily on DM interpretation (what is considered a "class that is essentially a class combination?") but very reasonably that includes things like Ruby Knight Vindicator.  They wrote the rule open-ended for a reason; they know they couldn't possibly list every conceivable class that they would ever produce that was a combo-class.

I'm calling BS on the entire restriction, myself.  Where do you draw the line?  Is Windwalker banned for a character wanting to play a storm mage because it's Full BAB?  Do we shitcan Ruathmari Battlemage for having partial BAB?  How about Suel Archanamach?  That seems just a tad bit gish, so must also be banned.  Where's the line?  A nazi DM could conceivably extrapolate just about any class as progressing more than one thing, and ban everything down to core with 0 PrCs.

And if we get into dual progressing PrC's, we're in homebrew territory, which is sort of inherent to Gesault.  In that case my suggestion is take JPM, give it most of Incantatrix, and conquer the world.  And if you get into trouble, the contingency keyed to emerald immolation means you have a get out of jail free card.  Now which is worse : allowing AC or EK or Swiftblade, to allow a functional gish, or letting something in along the spirit of gesault and getting a telephone pole up the ass?

EDIT : I'll be back, store run.  Consider this : Full FB up one side, full Ultimate Mage up the other, with Raged Casting.  Do you want that in a game?  Full BAB, d12's, good saves where they matter, and a mythal.  Now do you see why I say banning some of the gish staples makes 0 sense?  None, zip, zilch, nada, zero.  Just trying to drive the point home, they're trying to prevent power creep in a powergame, when in reality they are ASKING to get buttfucked by disallowing the lesser of two evils.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2009, 07:41:17 PM by KellKheraptis »
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ksbsnowowl

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Re: New gestalt game
« Reply #16 on: October 10, 2009, 07:56:25 PM »
I'm calling BS on the entire restriction, myself.  Where do you draw the line?  
For my games I allow full arcane progression to get up to 3/4 BAB and still not be "dual progression;" divine casting progression can get up to Full BAB.  I have similar limits on how much sneak attack something can grant before it reaches the "dual progression" territory.  It's not that hard to draw the line far enough out that you don't exclude most legit "single class" PrC's, yet bar the ones that are quite obviously dual progression.
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KellKheraptis

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Re: New gestalt game
« Reply #17 on: October 10, 2009, 08:20:52 PM »
I'm calling BS on the entire restriction, myself.  Where do you draw the line?  
For my games I allow full arcane progression to get up to 3/4 BAB and still not be "dual progression;" divine casting progression can get up to Full BAB.  I have similar limits on how much sneak attack something can grant before it reaches the "dual progression" territory.  It's not that hard to draw the line far enough out that you don't exclude most legit "single class" PrC's, yet bar the ones that are quite obviously dual progression.

And short of wasting levels on duskblade, one of the key abilities of gish is denied arbitrarily due to an interpretation of rules, and that's channeling spells.  Spellblade?  Nope, Full BAB and gets to smell spellcasting.  Abjurant Champion?  Rawr, IMBA-punpun!  JPM?  Omgwtfbbq, hax!  That's the attitude I'm getting from this restriction.  It is unfounded in brainpower and entirely the designers fearing gish, going so far as to nerf them to nearly unplayable in gesault.  After I start on dinner I'll post conversions for some classes for gesault and see how you like them (and by extension, how the DM of the OP's game likes them).  If he's cool with making gesault classes, that is.  And if he's not, make a wizard that makes the Twice-Betrayer seem like a commoner.

EDIT : Here they are.
Jade Phoenix Mage
[spoiler]Changed :
-Full Arcane progression
-Full maneuver progression from previous initiating class[/spoiler]

Abjurant Champion
[spoiler]Changed :
-Bonus feat at 3rd level, either Wizard or Fighter list
-Levels count as fighter levels for feat qualificaton[/spoiler]

Ultimate Magus
[spoiler]Changed :
-Full progression up both sides
-Bonus feats at 1/4/7/10
-Metamagic Effect at 3rd, Metamagic Spell Trigger at 6th, and Snatch Spell at 9th
-Improved Metamagic at 10th[/spoiler]

Foclucan Lyrist
[spoiler]Changed :
-Progresses previous class abilities, allowing it to work for druids or wizards, and also allowing for higher tier fighter feats[/spoiler]

Mystic Theurge
[spoiler]Changed :
-NFI here...maybe give it some bonus feats, and the capstone from PF?[/spoiler]

More to come as I get ideas.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2009, 08:47:28 PM by KellKheraptis »
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Maat_Mons

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Re: New gestalt game
« Reply #18 on: October 10, 2009, 11:35:06 PM »
I'm calling BS on the entire restriction, myself.  Where do you draw the line?  Is Windwalker banned for a character wanting to play a storm mage because it's Full BAB?  Do we shitcan Ruathmari Battlemage for having partial BAB?  How about Suel Archanamach?  That seems just a tad bit gish, so must also be banned.  Where's the line?  A nazi DM could conceivably extrapolate just about any class as progressing more than one thing, and ban everything down to core with 0 PrCs.

The slippery slope argument is a logical fallacy. 

And if we get into dual progressing PrC's, we're in homebrew territory, which is sort of inherent to Gesault.  In that case my suggestion is take JPM, give it most of Incantatrix, and conquer the world.  And if you get into trouble, the contingency keyed to emerald immolation means you have a get out of jail free card.  Now which is worse : allowing AC or EK or Swiftblade, to allow a functional gish, or letting something in along the spirit of gesault and getting a telephone pole up the ass?

False dilemma is also a logical fallacy. 

It is unfounded in brainpower and entirely the designers fearing gish, going so far as to nerf them to nearly unplayable in gesault. 

kurashu

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Re: New gestalt game
« Reply #19 on: October 11, 2009, 02:30:23 AM »
I'd say take Sorcerer 6/War Weaver 5/Spellguard 4/Something 5\\Favored Soul 6/Geomancer 1/Sacred Exoricst 1/Geomancer +9/Sacred Exorcist +3.

Arcane Spellsurge + DMM + Eldritch Weave. Charisma is king.

Or something of a combination of wizard build and archivist build working in war weaver to get those yummy Bite of the Were[X] on to everyone.