Throwing Build

[QOShea]

Working on a throwing build for the heck of it, might use it at some point.

NO psionics, Dragon Magazine, or ToB.

At the moment, it's mostly theoretical. If the guy running the game lets me use Zen Archery to sub Wis for Dex to qualify for ranged weapon feats, I might intro it as a bad guy at some point.

Went Monk / Zen Archery for the Wis bonus to AC and to ranged attacks.

Flaws: Craven, Murky Eyed (yes, I know it's silly for a ranged weapon specialist)
Feats: Zen Archery, Two Weapon Fighting

Level 01 (Rogue 1) - Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot
Level 02 (Monk 1) - Stunning Fist
Level 03 (Fighter 1) - Rapid Shot, Brutal Throw (Might take the ACF from DotU, but don't think it will be allowed as the character is human)
Level 04 (Fighter 2) - Power Throw (for the eventual Weak Spot attack)
Level 05 (Rogue 2)
Level 06 (Rogue 3) - Weapon Focus (Dart)
Level 07 (Rogue 4)
Level 08 (Master Thrower 1) - Quick Draw, Palm Throw
Level 09 (Master Thrower 2) - Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
Level 10 (Master Thrower 3) - Two With One Blow
Level 11 (Master Thrower 4) - Snatch Arrows
Level 12 (Master Thrower 5) - Critical Throw, Weak Spot, Neraph Throw


That's as far as I've gotten.

While Invisible Blade might be nice for the AC bonus, it's ultimately pointless for someone whose main weapon is not a dagger.

[BowenSilverclaw]

If you're focusing on Wisdom, try to fit in Shiba Protector from OA

[QOShea]

If you're focusing on Wisdom, try to fit in Shiba Protector from OA

I'll take a look at it and see what the DM thinks.

Thanks for the tip!

[QOShea]

Checked out Shiba Protector, DM wouldn't allow it simply because the character is more of a ninja type than a samurai.

But I like that Wis to damage!

[KellKheraptis]

Checked out Shiba Protector, DM wouldn't allow it simply because the character is more of a ninja type than a samurai.

But I like that Wis to damage!

If it has to do with the idea of samurai being honorable, have him read up on actual Iga province warriors (the originators of ninjutsu).  And then see if he challenges the validity of taking Shiba Protector.  I would dare say a jonin who felt a strong connection with his clan (who mind you were usually blood related) would fit the idea of a guardian PrC perfectly.

[QOShea]

If it has to do with the idea of samurai being honorable, have him read up on actual Iga province warriors (the originators of ninjutsu).  And then see if he challenges the validity of taking Shiba Protector.  I would dare say a jonin who felt a strong connection with his clan (who mind you were usually blood related) would fit the idea of a guardian PrC perfectly.

Nope, has more to do with the fact that he doesn't like the fact that they based OA off of Legend of the Five Rings.

Oh, and some malarky about how the class wouldn't fit in with the Western European based setting, but who cares about fluff like that?

[KellKheraptis]

Legend of the Five rings is based, IIRC, roughly upon A Book of Five Rings, and is considered one of the top strategic, tactical, and philosophical treatises of all time.  And if there are monks in his world, or practitioners of Kampfriggen (sp), there is a reason for an insightful, instinctive hand to hand fighter (monk/shiba protector).  Rename the class, maybe reflavor it slightly, and it fits perfectly.  The DM just isn't thinking of it as a viable role, though probably through no fault of his own.  Most people don't realize that Europe had plenty of its own hand to hand systems that were every bit as effective as easter martial arts.  In fact, the example above was specifically used for seperating a knight from first his horse and then his weapons, using his armor against him through superior positioning so he's getting in his own way, followed by a series of joint locks that use the natural loss of flexibility of armor to hasten the process.  It can most likely trace its roots to Greco-Roman wrestling, in that it's far less strike-focused, and more grapple-focused.  Combined with striking techniques still in use from training with spiked gauntlets/cestus, and kicking techniques borrowed from ancient Greece and Scandanavia, even an unarmed and unarmored knight was hardly helpless.  I would see Lancelot from First Knight as a perfect example of a western adaptation of Shiba Protector, as he was able to defend himself and even excel, even while disarmed.  And with a weapon he became an engine of destruction.  See what he thinks when presented with evidence of similar warriors existing in the west.  I think he'll realize the class is every bit as mutable as the more easily adapted western ones.  Just a thought, and hopefully it helps

~Kell

[QOShea]

Well, there is also the fact that this character is primarily a dart thrower and not a melee combatant.

Though that idea might work for a hardcore grappling character in the future.

And I found that according to the DMG, darts and shuriken are apparently not ammo.

Crossbow bolts, sling bullets, and arrows are the only things listed under ammo.

[snakeman830]

Shuriken are treated as ammo in all cases except actually attacking with them.  They're crafted as ammo, drawn as ammo, destroyed/lost as ammo, etc, but thrown as thrown weapons.

[QOShea]

Shuriken are treated as ammo in all cases except actually attacking with them.  They're crafted as ammo, drawn as ammo, destroyed/lost as ammo, etc, but thrown as thrown weapons.

Can you point me to the source of this? I've been unable to find it.

[Anklebite]

Shuriken are treated as ammo in all cases except actually attacking with them.  They're crafted as ammo, drawn as ammo, destroyed/lost as ammo, etc, but thrown as thrown weapons.

Can you point me to the source of this? I've been unable to find it.

shuriken description in PHB.

[QOShea]

shuriken description in PHB.

Doh! The one thing I didn't read! LOL

Darts don't mention it, so darts aren't considered ammo?

Ouch, that will definitely get expensive.

[Anklebite]

shuriken description in PHB.

Doh! The one thing I didn't read! LOL

Darts don't mention it, so darts aren't considered ammo?

Ouch, that will definitely get expensive.

just use shuriken instead, they can be dart shaped.  if you look at the illustration of the dart, it isn't really what you want to be throwing anyways.  It also doesn't really have anything making it better than a dagger. my advice: throw shurikens or daggers. shurikens are far cheaper to enchant.

[kelemvelor]

It is stated under the SRD under Shuriken. You can find it under the item description in the PHB.

Anyway just to clarify matters, note that sneak attack only applies to the first of the two weapons thrown in palm throw. As such, you may end up throwing 8 shurikens in a full attack but SA is only applicable to four of those attacks. That is probably why Bowen is suggesting to
Shiba for Wis to damage as that applies to all damage dealt.

Flavor wise, shurikens may be the best bet but daggers might be better if cost is not an issue. Improved critical (MT5) really helps the dagger more than shurikens.

p.s: If enchanting, shurikens are actually going to be more costly to enchant. As ammunitions, there is a possibility that they can get destroyed after the attack. You do not have that issue with thrown weapons... except that you can't use the same weapon to throw multiple times unless you go ToB.

[InnaBinder]

I didn't see a race listed; strongheart halfling gets you the same number of feats and the Halfling Whisperknife (Races of the Wild) PrC access, with bonuses to thrown weapons.

You might consider using the Feat Rogue and Sneak Attack Fighter variants to increase overall versatility and usefulness.

[QOShea]

I didn't see a race listed; strongheart halfling gets you the same number of feats and the Halfling Whisperknife (Races of the Wild) PrC access, with bonuses to thrown weapons.

You might consider using the Feat Rogue and Sneak Attack Fighter variants to increase overall versatility and usefulness.

Currently human. Strongheart halflings are Realms specific and since we aren't in the Realms, most specific things won't be allowed.

[randcortin]

I could have sworn that Zen Archery requires a Wisdom of 13 AND a BAB of +1 or more. And I'm pretty sure Rogues have a BAB of 0 at first level, so some Feat shuffling may be required.

[minchazo]

Power Throw requires Power Attack, which you don't have listed.

I'd recommend looking into the Targetteer fighter variant. It gives you a couple of ranged exotic weapons for free (like skiprocks or nets), move silently & hide as class skills, and a feat for an extra attack if you take a neg on all attacks. Works best if you have Rapid Shot, too.

Get Far Shot or Ranged Weapon Mastery will allow you to hit things farther than 5 feet away without penalties.

Anyway just to clarify matters, note that sneak attack only applies to the first of the two weapons thrown in palm throw. As such, you may end up throwing 8 shurikens in a full attack but SA is only applicable to four of those attacks. That is probably why Bowen is suggesting to
Shiba for Wis to damage as that applies to all damage dealt.

Why can't you sneak attack with both weapons on palm throw? It requires a separate attack roll. Skiprocks get a ricochet that should (in theory) also get sneak attack, but I personally consider that a bit much.

[QOShea]

I'd recommend looking into the Targetteer fighter variant. It gives you a couple of ranged exotic weapons for free (like skiprocks or nets), move silently & hide as class skills, and a feat for an extra attack if you take a neg on all attacks. Works best if you have Rapid Shot, too.

Where is the Targetteer? if it's in Dragon, it's not allowed.