Author Topic: "Recuiting" an army (if on Mythweavers, do not read)  (Read 5165 times)

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snakeman830

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"Recuiting" an army (if on Mythweavers, do not read)
« on: October 07, 2009, 07:42:59 PM »
So, hopefully I'm about to start playing the villian in a heroes vs. villain game.  My character will be the BBEG if I get in.  The character is a Human Necropolitan Dread Necromancer 19 with a charisma (post-boosts and inherent bonus) of 33, so he can (and will) have a good-sized army of skeles and zombies, making liberal use of Plague of Undead so they have maximum hp (total of 18 per HD, thanks to other boosts as well).  I was sure to grab Corpsecrafter, Nimble Bones, Destruction Retribuiton, and Sickening Grasp (mainly for the caster level boost).  My Human Bonus feat went to Mother Cyst, so I have access to that line of spells.  I do not have any metamagic feats or divine feats (had to sacrifice my only divine feat for Landlord).  All of my feat slots are filled. Leadership is a bonus feat for the main villian, but I don't get a cohort.  That role is taken up by others playing "henchmen".

Important equipment so far includes the Lyre of the Restful Soul, Rod of Defiance (between the two, undead get -8 turn resistance), Scepter of the Netherworld (so I count as level 22 for Rebuking), and a Rod of Undead Mastery.  And a Cloak of Charisma +6, but that's such a "duh" item...

So, with my Plague of Undead/Animate Dead pool alone, I have 578 HD of undead to control.  Rebuking I won't calculate specifics on, but anything of up to 19 HD I could (doesn't mean I will) nab.

The final piece of my army creation is something that most necromancers don't have: living minions.  Necrotic Tumor is a very nice spell, giving me permanant domination over the subject with the save DC of a 9th level spell, but only a 7th level slot.  Did I mention that Protection From Evil doesn't stop this?  Yes, I have to affect them with a Necrotic Cyst spell first, but I find that to be a non-challenge.  This can potentially let me nab a lot of living allies who can never betray me.

Something I would like to know is what are good targets for each method of "recruiting"?  All official books are open, but try and stay away from the cheese.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2009, 12:40:45 AM by snakeman830 »
I am constantly amazed by how many DM's ban Tomb of Battle.  The book doesn't even exist!

Quotes:[spoiler]
By yes, she means no.
That explains so much about my life.
hiicantcomeupwithacharacterthatisntaghostwhyisthatamijustretardedorsomething
Why would you even do this? It hurts my eyes and looks like you ate your keyboard before suffering an attack of explosive diarrhea.
[/spoiler]

If using Genesis to hide your phylactry, set it at -300 degrees farenheit.  See how do-gooders fare with a liquid atmosphere.

woodenbandman

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Re: "Recuiting" an army (if on Mythweavers, do not read)
« Reply #1 on: October 07, 2009, 10:47:40 PM »
How about a Bard/Warchanter? That bard will make all 578 HD of your minions attack at the highest BAB of all effected by his music, which should be at least 13 (the minimum a 15th level warchanter would have). Add in Inspirational Boost, Song of the Heart, a Badge of Valor, being a kobold of some sort, and the Dragonfire Inspiration feat and all your skeletons deal + 4d6 energy damage when he Inspires Courage.

Heck, have 2 bards: 1 Warchanter, and one for max Dragonfire Inspiration. If you can, effect an exalted bard with Words of Creation and don't let him perform any evil acts himself (this is probably really hard but if you pull it off expect +12d6 energy damage on all your attacks). If you can't have WoC, it's not worth adding another bard because similar effects don't stack. Anyway a Dirgesinger would be nice, and can be much lower level (about 10th as opposed to 15th or something for a War Chanter. A Binder with Chupoclops and Focalor bound, with 2 levels of Paladin of Tyranny could be a powerhouse, giving -6 to all saves to people next to him which doesn't apply to undead. Plus all kinds of goodies like Pounce.

Negative Zero

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Re: "Recuiting" an army (if on Mythweavers, do not read)
« Reply #2 on: October 07, 2009, 11:08:46 PM »
A Binder with Chupoclops and Focalor bound, with 2 levels of Paladin of Tyranny could be a powerhouse, giving -6 to all saves to people next to him which doesn't apply to undead. Plus all kinds of goodies like Pounce.

If you do that, I'd suggest getting an Unseelie Fey Binder, to increase that -6 by the Binder's Charisma mod. Assuming you're looking at 18 charisma, that totals up to -10 to saves for adjacent targets. That's huge. If you really want to rub it in, a few levels in Fatespinner could make that even more painful, if you are desperate to make someone fail a save. (Say, on a Necrotic Cyst.)

In general, if your henchmen don't have class levels, your best bet for CR to HD ratio will be Outsiders. The guide to the lower planes has some great Outsiders listed. Don't forget that Dread Necromancers can use Planar Binding, kill what shows up, and then raise it as undead.

snakeman830

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Re: "Recuiting" an army (if on Mythweavers, do not read)
« Reply #3 on: October 07, 2009, 11:46:31 PM »
A Binder with Chupoclops and Focalor bound, with 2 levels of Paladin of Tyranny could be a powerhouse, giving -6 to all saves to people next to him which doesn't apply to undead. Plus all kinds of goodies like Pounce.

If you do that, I'd suggest getting an Unseelie Fey Binder, to increase that -6 by the Binder's Charisma mod. Assuming you're looking at 18 charisma, that totals up to -10 to saves for adjacent targets. That's huge. If you really want to rub it in, a few levels in Fatespinner could make that even more painful, if you are desperate to make someone fail a save. (Say, on a Necrotic Cyst.)

In general, if your henchmen don't have class levels, your best bet for CR to HD ratio will be Outsiders. The guide to the lower planes has some great Outsiders listed. Don't forget that Dread Necromancers can use Planar Binding, kill what shows up, and then raise it as undead.
Luckily debuffs are fairly easy to come by for a Dread Necro, but every one helps.  I'll look around for Binders and Blackgaurds to force to aid me.  Plana Binding I have ideas for on having two sets ready: nonlethal traps and lethal force.  Some outsiders are better off as undead (i.e., those that have mostly Ex abilities).  Some are better off dominated (Archons for maximum hilarity).

I will definitely look into mass buffers, but the problem does come up in that most of those deals are mind-effecting.  Dirgesingers and those with the Undead-bardic music feat do sound useful, though.  I suppose a Marshall could aid any awakened or intelligent undead in making tem better, though.

One critter I am definitely looking at: Silver Dragons.  They have some nice abilities, but with the Zombie Dragon template, they'll be loaded with hp (adult would have 443 hp) and two energy immunities (and a paralyzing breath weapon).  That and it's fun to twist a Lawful Good figure into my evil slave.
I am constantly amazed by how many DM's ban Tomb of Battle.  The book doesn't even exist!

Quotes:[spoiler]
By yes, she means no.
That explains so much about my life.
hiicantcomeupwithacharacterthatisntaghostwhyisthatamijustretardedorsomething
Why would you even do this? It hurts my eyes and looks like you ate your keyboard before suffering an attack of explosive diarrhea.
[/spoiler]

If using Genesis to hide your phylactry, set it at -300 degrees farenheit.  See how do-gooders fare with a liquid atmosphere.

tristanayres

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Re: "Recuiting" an army (if on Mythweavers, do not read)
« Reply #4 on: October 07, 2009, 11:52:10 PM »
How about the neg energy burst ( i think afb) from Libmort that would allow you to not only punish pcs for actually participating in melee combat but heal the other undead around them. At least I beleive it was neg energy dmg that dealt hopefully not cold

Thanks for your time

Emy

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Re: "Recuiting" an army (if on Mythweavers, do not read)
« Reply #5 on: October 08, 2009, 12:23:10 AM »
Rebuking:

Swap the Scepter of the Netherworld for a Phylactery of Undead Turning, and pick up a Flametouched Iron holy symbol. That would bring your turning level to 24, which means that with your Rod o' Mastery, you can have 48 HD of undead rebuked at once, and each of these creatures can have up to 20HD (they're rebuked as 12HD creatures due to your items). Go ahead and grab some casters with this. Your normal control pool can be filled with melee brutes.

I recommend 2 Dread Linnorms and 4 Planetars. They cast as sorcerer 18s and cleric 17s, respectively. Black Ethergaunts would probably beat Dread Linnorms -- and they have fewer hit dice, but Dread Linnorms can be called with greater dragon ally, so a corpse of one would be easier to procure.

Animate Dead:

Outsiders and dragons. Outsiders because they're good for their HD (I recently got a Marilith in a game where I'm playing a necromancer, and it's much stronger than I expected. I have to buff the rest of the party furiously to compensate.) Dragons because of the Zombie Dragon and Skeletal Dragon templates, which don't have the usual zombie/skeleton HD caps.

snakeman830

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Re: "Recuiting" an army (if on Mythweavers, do not read)
« Reply #6 on: October 08, 2009, 12:38:23 AM »
I don't see any reason to drop the scepter, although I did forget the Flametouched Iron symbol.  Not worthwhile as the Scepter+Phylactry of Undead Turning bring my rebuking to 26, though, and the extra +1 is meaningless for control purposes.  This boosts my maximum HD commanded to 21, so that's good.

Should probably mention what I know of my henchmen.  One is setting up a Human Necropolitan Disciple of Dispater Eviscerator (don't recall level).  Another is a Death Knight Paladin of Tyranny (or Slaughter, I don't remember).  The third I know more certianly, being an ex-cleric 5, Ur-Priest 10.  Caster level isn't going to be great there, but at the very least, it means I have any cleric spell at my disposal and someone else to help command things up to 16HD (if I lend them use of my items).

Planetars aren't undead, though, so my only recruitment method is via Necrotic Tumor.  Where are Dread Linnorms from?
I am constantly amazed by how many DM's ban Tomb of Battle.  The book doesn't even exist!

Quotes:[spoiler]
By yes, she means no.
That explains so much about my life.
hiicantcomeupwithacharacterthatisntaghostwhyisthatamijustretardedorsomething
Why would you even do this? It hurts my eyes and looks like you ate your keyboard before suffering an attack of explosive diarrhea.
[/spoiler]

If using Genesis to hide your phylactry, set it at -300 degrees farenheit.  See how do-gooders fare with a liquid atmosphere.

PhaedrusXY

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Re: "Recuiting" an army (if on Mythweavers, do not read)
« Reply #7 on: October 08, 2009, 12:57:11 AM »
Planetars aren't undead, though,
That's pretty easy to solve. :P Greater Planar Binding + *gankfest* + Create Undead (Bone Creature).
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

Emy

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Re: "Recuiting" an army (if on Mythweavers, do not read)
« Reply #8 on: October 08, 2009, 01:18:31 AM »
Planetars aren't undead, though, so my only recruitment method is via Necrotic Tumor.  Where are Dread Linnorms from?

I see I forgot some info in my previous post.

Dread Linnorms are from Monster Manual II. They're Dragons.

and I'd use this method for both of them

Greater Planar Binding + *gankfest* + Create Undead (Bone Creature).

except with a Corpse Creature for the Planetars (so they keep their winged flight).

Bone Creature and Corpse Creature are both from Book of Vile Darkness.

Felix Underwood

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Re: "Recuiting" an army (if on Mythweavers, do not read)
« Reply #9 on: October 08, 2009, 12:47:17 PM »
I'm kinda unfamiliar with a heroes vs. villain game... are you a Player that will pit your minions agains other PCs?

Do you expect the game will progress to 20th level?  If so, do you plan on obtaining a True Resurrection so that you can advance to a Lich as per Dread Necromancer 20?

Do you have the Spellstiched template?  Have you seen K's Revised Necromancer Handbook: http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5584.0

I heartily recommend K's advice to Spellstich in the spell Animate Dread Warrior for an additional source of minions.

Something I would like to know is what are good targets for each method of "recruiting"?  All official books are open, but try and stay away from the cheese.
I suppose this is the hard part... Optimizing undead minions yet staying away from cheese is a tricky balancing act.

The planar binding and dragon ally type spells are one of the very few ways I know of cherry-picking corpses for you to animate.

Other than that, you are pretty much limited to whatever your DM chooses to grace you with.  You just have to be reactive once the game starts, and be sure to assimilate whatever major NPCs you defeat... (or major PC's)  :D

If you manage to put the smack down on a PC, slap on an Animate Dread Warrior SLA quickly and teleport his butt out of there... The PCs could try and Wish him back, but hopefully several reoccurances of 5,000xp Wishes might discourage that.

Are you looking at fielding massive armies all at once, or are you looking for small, elite strike-squads?

If you want the army, and the force multipliers to go with it, I'd hunt down several dragonblooded bards with different draconic heritages.  I think Dragonfire Inspiration of different elemental damage types should overlap... +xd6 fire, +xd6 cold, etc...   Also, search for Dragon Shamans for their draconic auras and Marshals for their auras...

Otherwise, elite strike-squads would be easier on time management (less micromanaging than bulky armies).

EDIT:  additional reading material:  Fun with Awaken Undead http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5759.msg190590#msg190590
« Last Edit: October 08, 2009, 12:57:31 PM by Felix Underwood »

Felix Underwood

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Re: "Recuiting" an army (if on Mythweavers, do not read)
« Reply #10 on: October 08, 2009, 02:00:08 PM »
I recommend 2 Dread Linnorms and 4 Planetars. They cast as sorcerer 18s and cleric 17s, respectively. Black Ethergaunts would probably beat Dread Linnorms -- and they have fewer hit dice, but Dread Linnorms can be called with greater dragon ally, so a corpse of one would be easier to procure.
Ah crud... I had high hopes for the Linnorms after checking out their stats, so I dug a little further.  Unfortunately, the Dragon Ally family of spells are Conjuration (Summoning).

If they were Conjuration (Calling), they would leave a usable corpse... unfortunatly, (Summoning) doesn't.

 :(

Brainpiercing

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Re: "Recuiting" an army (if on Mythweavers, do not read)
« Reply #11 on: October 08, 2009, 02:15:28 PM »
Are your feat choices set? Nimble bonus is sort of underwhelming (when you COULD have Arcane Disciple), and Destruction Retribution works for exactly ONE trick, and for everything else it's largely useless, IMHO.

Other than that, the advice in here is pretty good so far. Of course you want as many spellcaster minions as you can get. Also, you want the largest possible individual HD you can get.

You should use a Rod of Maximise (also useful with the greater Harms/Mass Harms you might want to throw around, which sort of suck without that) for Awakening your Zombie Dragon pet, and have it take feats that improve its flight maneuverability, plus Flyby attack, flyby breath, etc. If it has enough HD, of course the Dodge/Mobility/Elusive Target line is nice, now it's an almost unkillable flying fortress. If you let another minion ride it, even more damage can be negated. (Make that one small and inconspicuous, so that it won't necessarily be noticed.) And YOU can be sitting inside it, safely out of harm's way (and you can heal it from inside). You could be holding a tea party in the dragon while it goes about burninating or otherwise destroying your enemies. Be sure to give it a ring of Resistance +5, though, the PCs might know about ugly things like Glass Strike.


If they were Conjuration (Calling), they would leave a usable corpse... unfortunatly, (Summoning) doesn't.

 :(

Get a Ring of Theurgy, have a minion cast Shapechange into it. Now Shapechange into something that creates incorporeal spawn, like shadows, etc. Kill previously prepared helpless people. The spawn will continue to be under your command even after the shapechange ends. Now they probably won't be useful for fighting, but you can create an infinite army of scouts, and just send them out to search for useful monsters, which can then "visit".

Negative Zero

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Re: "Recuiting" an army (if on Mythweavers, do not read)
« Reply #12 on: October 08, 2009, 02:21:12 PM »
Would anything stop you from Planar Binding a Psuedonatural Dread Linnorm? (The weak Psuedonatural - I assume you don't want to absolutely annihilate the competition..)

PhaedrusXY

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Re: "Recuiting" an army (if on Mythweavers, do not read)
« Reply #13 on: October 08, 2009, 02:23:59 PM »
Would anything stop you from Planar Binding a Psuedonatural Dread Linnorm? (The weak Psuedonatural - I assume you don't want to absolutely annihilate the competition..)
No. Calling templated forms is explicitly allowed in the Book of Exalted Cheese. They even have examples in there of templated outsiders with class levels that you can call...
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

Brainpiercing

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Re: "Recuiting" an army (if on Mythweavers, do not read)
« Reply #14 on: October 08, 2009, 02:32:37 PM »
No. Calling templated forms is explicitly allowed in the Book of Exalted Cheese. They even have examples in there of templated outsiders with class levels that you can call...

That's ummm.... so typical....of writers who have NO idea what the shit they create can do.

snakeman830

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Re: "Recuiting" an army (if on Mythweavers, do not read)
« Reply #15 on: October 08, 2009, 04:46:29 PM »
Well, you can summon a Celestial Unicorn Cleric 7 with a Summon Nature's Ally spell...

I do plan on going out and hunting down specific corpses...I mean creatures... that I want, or hunting out specific undead to rebuke.  Planar Binding will be the easy method to get good servants (living or unliving), but it is limited to Outsiders.

K's handbook is good (mostly), but he needs to completely rework his rebuking section.  Truth is, I don't agree with a lot of it, but I have read the hanbook.

Dread Warrior I can't use myself (I went with Revive Undead instead).  I do plan on spellstitching myself (and have a Thought Bottle so I can go on a stitching spree without really losing any more than 500xp).  Since I don't know the Dread Warrior spell, I can't spellstitch myself with it.  Otherwise, I would grab it.

A Rod of Maximise is on my shopping list now.  I just need to make sure I have enough cash.
I am constantly amazed by how many DM's ban Tomb of Battle.  The book doesn't even exist!

Quotes:[spoiler]
By yes, she means no.
That explains so much about my life.
hiicantcomeupwithacharacterthatisntaghostwhyisthatamijustretardedorsomething
Why would you even do this? It hurts my eyes and looks like you ate your keyboard before suffering an attack of explosive diarrhea.
[/spoiler]

If using Genesis to hide your phylactry, set it at -300 degrees farenheit.  See how do-gooders fare with a liquid atmosphere.

PhaedrusXY

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Re: "Recuiting" an army (if on Mythweavers, do not read)
« Reply #16 on: October 08, 2009, 05:20:58 PM »
You're only a Psychic Reformation or two away from knowing Animate Dread Warrior long enough to Spellstitch it. Necrotic Cyst a Psion. :D
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

Negative Zero

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Re: "Recuiting" an army (if on Mythweavers, do not read)
« Reply #17 on: October 08, 2009, 05:46:53 PM »
You're only a Psychic Reformation or two away from knowing Animate Dread Warrior long enough to Spellstitch it. Necrotic Cyst a Psion. :D

Having a few Psions around is a good idea anyway, especially if you use Psionics is Different. (Wilders are worth considering, too. Their lack of versatility doesn't matter as much when they're just there for backup anyway, and Wild Surge is lots of fun.)

snakeman830

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Re: "Recuiting" an army (if on Mythweavers, do not read)
« Reply #18 on: October 08, 2009, 06:59:43 PM »
All right, here is the character sheet.  Spells have been chosen (and is permanant until I can get some sufficiently high-level psions/wilders on my team) and abilities taken care of.  The Charisma has been modified by a +5 Tome already.  I don't know how much can really be done with the sheet other than maybe a bit of feat shuffling and buying more equipment.  The 600,000 gold at the bottom of the currency section is dedicated to the Stronghold.

I plan on leaving at least 2,000 gold for Onyx (20 castings of Plague of Undead).

The campaign is basically going to be two groups.  My henchmen and I trying to advance my plans and the heroes trying to stop me.  None of us (unless somebody ignored the title warning of this thread) know what the others are or can do other than ECL.  The heroes are starting at level 3, I'm starting at level 19 (although I really could have chosen my level).  At the game start, none of us know what the other group is doing either.  Naturally I won't be advancing anywhere near as fast as they will, but that's fine with me.  I'm almost at the height of my power anyway.
I am constantly amazed by how many DM's ban Tomb of Battle.  The book doesn't even exist!

Quotes:[spoiler]
By yes, she means no.
That explains so much about my life.
hiicantcomeupwithacharacterthatisntaghostwhyisthatamijustretardedorsomething
Why would you even do this? It hurts my eyes and looks like you ate your keyboard before suffering an attack of explosive diarrhea.
[/spoiler]

If using Genesis to hide your phylactry, set it at -300 degrees farenheit.  See how do-gooders fare with a liquid atmosphere.

PhaedrusXY

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Re: "Recuiting" an army (if on Mythweavers, do not read)
« Reply #19 on: October 08, 2009, 07:20:22 PM »
I have a scheming character with Mother Cyst in a PbP on here. You might find some ideas in his background on non-combatant individuals to encyst.
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]