Author Topic: Tier 1 of tier 1  (Read 5791 times)

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Mushroom

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Tier 1 of tier 1
« on: October 06, 2009, 10:27:40 PM »
Assuming a pretty lenient DM, which should I play? Also, assume that the whole problem with the Erudite's number of powers per day has been fixed a bit(x number of them per power level)

KellKheraptis

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Re: Tier 1 of tier 1
« Reply #1 on: October 06, 2009, 10:31:49 PM »
Arcane Swordsage > Either of them if CL=IL stacking is allowed.  Especially since you can have 3xCL/IL PP rechargeable with a full round action from mental pinnacle.  If you want raw unadulterated power, check out my Ultimate Mage thread.  The end result was capable of some scary things.  Also, the build in Breaking the Arcane Swordsage In Half had quadruple nines with full recharge capability.

Of those two, I'd go with the Erudite, though.
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juton

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Re: Tier 1 of tier 1
« Reply #2 on: October 06, 2009, 10:47:20 PM »
What level are you starting at and what level do you think you'll be ending at? If you start from level 1 then a Druid or DMM Cleric are probably the best bets to go the distance. If you start at higher levels, like 10 an Erudite, Incantrix or an Archivist can all get you the power you crave.

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Re: Tier 1 of tier 1
« Reply #3 on: October 07, 2009, 12:07:06 AM »
Is the "psionic" artificer even more powerful than a normal one? Because... they're pretty damn overpowered right "out of the box".  :bigeye
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Negative Zero

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Re: Tier 1 of tier 1
« Reply #4 on: October 07, 2009, 12:08:54 AM »
Linked Power is the reason why, last I heard.

Mushroom

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Re: Tier 1 of tier 1
« Reply #5 on: October 07, 2009, 01:01:41 AM »
Is the "psionic" artificer even more powerful than a normal one? Because... they're pretty damn overpowered right "out of the box".  :bigeye
Due to the abuse of Erudite, couldn't the psi artificer create damn near everything?

KellKheraptis

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Re: Tier 1 of tier 1
« Reply #6 on: October 07, 2009, 01:55:19 AM »
Truth be told, if you're going for pure volume of action abuse, I think the winner is an Ardent Swiftblade, since psionics does that sorta thing better usually, and getting an extra standard or move on top is nice.  Swiftblade/Factotem even more so.
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Anklebite

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Re: Tier 1 of tier 1
« Reply #7 on: October 07, 2009, 02:11:55 AM »
Truth be told, if you're going for pure volume of action abuse, I think the winner is an Ardent Swiftblade, since psionics does that sorta thing better usually, and getting an extra standard or move on top is nice.  Swiftblade/Factotem even more so.

or, just go factotum20 and stack FoI and action-nova at the beginning of every encounter.  then, after the encounter is over, you get all your inspiration points back.
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Negative Zero

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Re: Tier 1 of tier 1
« Reply #8 on: October 07, 2009, 02:12:33 AM »
Truth be told, if you're going for pure volume of action abuse, I think the winner is an Ardent Swiftblade, since psionics does that sorta thing better usually, and getting an extra standard or move on top is nice.  Swiftblade/Factotem even more so.

I'd actually say that if the only thing you care about is actions, your best bet is Ardent/Metamind, with the trick where you have Font of Power running all day long. Unlimited power points and Dominant Mantle means that you can go ahead and manifest Twinned Synchronicities without blowing your focus, giving you literally unlimited actions. Unlimited standard actions, anyway.

Mushroom

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Re: Tier 1 of tier 1
« Reply #9 on: October 07, 2009, 02:27:23 AM »
Why did we burst into action abuse? All I wanted to know is which of these two would have the most 'power'. I remember a regular COer over at Gitp made a comment like "Erudite is high end of Tier 1" and someone around here made a special mention that Psionic Artificer was tier 0

Anklebite

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Re: Tier 1 of tier 1
« Reply #10 on: October 07, 2009, 03:01:03 AM »
Why did we burst into action abuse? All I wanted to know is which of these two would have the most 'power'. I remember a regular COer over at Gitp made a comment like "Erudite is high end of Tier 1" and someone around here made a special mention that Psionic Artificer was tier 0

you wanted higher tier, which generally means action abuse. a commoner with infinite actions beats a wizard with limited actions.
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KellKheraptis

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Re: Tier 1 of tier 1
« Reply #11 on: October 07, 2009, 04:09:00 AM »
Why did we burst into action abuse? All I wanted to know is which of these two would have the most 'power'. I remember a regular COer over at Gitp made a comment like "Erudite is high end of Tier 1" and someone around here made a special mention that Psionic Artificer was tier 0

you wanted higher tier, which generally means action abuse. a commoner with infinite actions beats a wizard with limited actions.

Well...sort of.  A commoner with infinite actions against a well prepared wizard is still a commoner.  You can throw all the chickens you want at the USS Nimetz, and you still won't sink it.  However, infinite actions with any sort of viable offense means autowin.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2009, 05:21:09 AM by KellKheraptis »
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The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Tier 1 of tier 1
« Reply #12 on: October 07, 2009, 04:43:34 AM »
Why did we burst into action abuse? All I wanted to know is which of these two would have the most 'power'. I remember a regular COer over at Gitp made a comment like "Erudite is high end of Tier 1" and someone around here made a special mention that Psionic Artificer was tier 0

you wanted higher tier, which generally means action abuse. a commoner with infinite actions beats a wizard with limited actions.

Well...sort of.  A commoner with infinite actions against a well prepared wizard is still a commoner.  You can throw all the pepples you want at the USS Nimetz, and you still won't sink it.  However, infinite actions with any sort of viable offense means autowin.

I think you misspelled "chickens" there.
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KellKheraptis

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Re: Tier 1 of tier 1
« Reply #13 on: October 07, 2009, 05:22:00 AM »
Why did we burst into action abuse? All I wanted to know is which of these two would have the most 'power'. I remember a regular COer over at Gitp made a comment like "Erudite is high end of Tier 1" and someone around here made a special mention that Psionic Artificer was tier 0

you wanted higher tier, which generally means action abuse. a commoner with infinite actions beats a wizard with limited actions.

Well...sort of.  A commoner with infinite actions against a well prepared wizard is still a commoner.  You can throw all the pepples you want at the USS Nimetz, and you still won't sink it.  However, infinite actions with any sort of viable offense means autowin.

I think you misspelled "chickens" there.

Fixed, but it still won't get around persistent delay death and persistent beastland ferocity :P
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Sinfire Titan

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Re: Tier 1 of tier 1
« Reply #14 on: October 07, 2009, 12:28:45 PM »
Why did we burst into action abuse? All I wanted to know is which of these two would have the most 'power'. I remember a regular COer over at Gitp made a comment like "Erudite is high end of Tier 1" and someone around here made a special mention that Psionic Artificer was tier 0

Arcane Fusion, Arcane Spellsurge, and damn near anything else WotC gave to the Sorcerer to make their spells useful is why. Hell, Arcane spells in general are considered the most powerful offense in the game (Divine spells don't have as much BC, but they have some good buffs). The StP Erudite is capable of obtaining every single Arcane spell of 8th level and lower, along with 9th level Psionic powers. Thanks to Schism, Arcane Spellsurge, Arcane Fusion, Linked Power or Quicken Power, you are able to nova without needing to be built specifically around novaing.

Domain spells can be obtained via Arcane Disciple. Other divine spells can be obtained using Wyrm Wizard or Recaster.

The Erudite is able to select their unique powers/day on the fly. If you want a power, sift through your list and just manifest it. That power is now one of Unique powers for that day.


The Psionic Artificer has just as much broken, but the difference is time. It takes time for a PsiArti to craft items, whereas the Erudite can spend 15 minutes in a Planar Metropolis leeching spells off of spellcasters for free (doesn't affect them at all). He then spends 8 hours sleeping and those are now spells known. He is also able to learn a total of 50 powers at the cost of a single level of advancement (next time he levels up, he holds off on the level and spend the XP learning powers). If he multiclassed out at a fairly low level (6th, for example) he can spend the same amount of XP and learn nearly triple the powers.


The PsiArti needs at least 24 hours to craft a single Djore. While there are ways around the time limit, he still has to wait a good deal of time to actually have all of the items he needs. Also the Erudite is next to unaffected by MDJ and similar effects, whereas the Artificer has that as one of his biggest weaknesses (if he's ever caught off guard by one casting of those effects, he's going to be down his most valuable class feature).


[spoiler][/spoiler]

PlzBreakMyCampaign

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Re: Tier 1 of tier 1
« Reply #15 on: October 07, 2009, 12:36:58 PM »
Mmm Chicken. This is makin me hungry. I say the artificer because they don't seem as broken (obviously I voted the opposite way)

Spell to power erudites is like actually playing the I win button. Seriously why bother?  :lol
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KellKheraptis

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Re: Tier 1 of tier 1
« Reply #16 on: October 07, 2009, 12:46:24 PM »
Mmm Chicken. This is makin me hungry. I say the artificer because they don't seem as broken (obviously I voted the opposite way)

Spell to power erudites is like actually playing the I win button. Seriously why bother?  :lol

Because they still don't have a reset/recharge button for absolutely all their powers/spells/maneuvers :P  That said, an ASS will be hardpressed to match an erudite or arcane caster for action abuse, even if they do have access to more tech.
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woodenbandman

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Re: Tier 1 of tier 1
« Reply #17 on: October 07, 2009, 12:51:17 PM »
Erudite: Unlimited uses of infinite ultimate powers rationed out at the rate of 343 + bonus PP per day, and 11 powers available per day.

Psionic Artificer: Only works as powerful if dragon magazine and/or Spell to power erudite exists (let's say they do). Unlimited uses of infinite ultimate powers rationed out at the rate of 50 uses/crafted item, it takes days to craft items, and once you have a single crafted item, you just keep crafting more. Through typical trickery, you can reduce the time needed to 1/50th of the time you usually take (I think that's possible. I know bowen silverclaw's 'ficer had like 13.5% of market value and he had a fuckton of backlogged crafting and junk.) and at that point you're like USA in terms of how many more nukes you have than everyone else.

KellKheraptis

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Re: Tier 1 of tier 1
« Reply #18 on: October 07, 2009, 12:55:23 PM »
By the way, if you read the text on the erudite, that's not UP/Day, that's UP/level/day.  BIG difference.  The intent was probably UP/day, but that's not what ended up in print :P   
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Re: Tier 1 of tier 1
« Reply #19 on: October 07, 2009, 01:04:46 PM »
By the way, if you read the text on the erudite, that's not UP/Day, that's UP/level/day.  BIG difference.  The intent was probably UP/day, but that's not what ended up in print :P   

Actually, the intent behind the original was UP/Power level/day. The text ends up reading one of three ways.

  • UP/Power level/day. The original Dragon Magazine version. This was during 3.0 Psionics, so it was actually possible to fill that many powers. Game Breaker with StP.
  • UP/Class level/Day. The actual game breaker. Ends up with 220 UP/day. Have fun finding that many powers without StP.
  • UP/Day. 11 UPs, period. The most balanced, but also the least playable. Still a game breaker with StP.


Really, the problem here is StP's unlimited access to Sor/Wiz spells. There's so many action abusers in there that it isn't funny.


[spoiler][/spoiler]