Author Topic: Optimizing darts?  (Read 3753 times)

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LimaBeanMage

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Optimizing darts?
« on: September 15, 2009, 04:35:45 PM »
One of my players wants to play a very specific character from a book. This character is essentially a very dexterous character that uses throwing knives as their main method of attack. The problem I am having is just making throwing knives (darts) as useful as other weapon routes.

So, any ideas on how a dainty and dexterous dart thrower can be useful in combat?

Shadowhunter

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Re: Optimizing darts?
« Reply #1 on: September 15, 2009, 04:51:59 PM »
Drow of the Underdark, Fighter ACF:
Gain +2 to Initiative, Dex to damage against flat-footed opponents within 30'.

Dragon Magazine 310, Alternative Fighter Targeteer:
Switch Bonus Feat for Dex to ranged attacks (subs Str).

Dragon Compendium, Dead Eye Feat:
Gives Dex to ranged attacks.

Complete Warrior, Swashbuckler 3.
Int to damage with finessable weapons, but nothing states it needs to be melee attacks.

How does 3x Dex+Int to each dagger sound?

Precision damage though, so a tad unstable.
That comes with the territory.
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Viletta Vadim

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Re: Optimizing darts?
« Reply #2 on: September 15, 2009, 04:53:05 PM »
Dual-wield and get a source of Sneak Attack.  You also qualify for Rapid Shot while throwing, meaning you can throw out a lot of sneak attacks.  Three sneaks a round at level 3 isn't bad.  Range kinda sucks, sadly.  Worse, you can't Sneak Attack via flanking, only by catching the target flat-footed, which limits your options; get a reliable source of invisibility as soon as you can.

Because you're not able to benefit from flanking anyways, it may be a rare case where it could be wise to take the Ninja class from Complete Adventurer rather than Rogue, since they get inherent invisibility capabilities and Sudden Strike doesn't trigger on flank anyways.

I'm away from my books right now, but I believe the Master Thrower PrC from Complete Warrior is great for throwing builds, and even lets you throw as touch attacks (all IIRC), and is pretty much a must.

gorfnad

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Re: Optimizing darts?
« Reply #3 on: September 15, 2009, 05:04:07 PM »
Well even with a basic build of Human Rogue 3/ Swashbuckler 3/ Fighter 4/ Invisible Blade 5/ Master Thrower 5 you'll end with the ability to throw 16 (BAB of 19, TWF, ITWF, GTWF, Rapid Shot, and Palm Throw) daggers  a round all as ranged touch attacks and 8 of which will have 5d6 (+20 with Craven) sneak attack damage. Each dagger alone would deal 1d4+2+Int+Str. But that's just throwing the daggers, in melee that still leaves you with 7 attacks per round. There are builds out there that are better than this one in terms of damage output but this one is easier to build.
Human
1. Rogue - Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot
2. Rogue
3. Rogue - Craven, Penetrating Strike substitution from Dungeonscape
4. Swashbuckler - B: Weapon Finesse
5. Swashbuckler
6. Swashbuckler - Two Weapon Fighting
7. Fighter - B: Weapon Focus Dagger
8. Fighter - B: Improved Two Weapon Fighting
9. Fighter - Far Shot
10 Fighter - B: Weapon Specialization Dagger
11. Master Thrower - B: Quick Draw
12. Master Thrower - Great Two Weapon Fighting
13. Invisible Blade
14. Invisible Blade
15. Invisible Blade - Rapid Shot
16. Invisible Blade
17. Invisible Blade
18. Master Thrower - Combat Reflexes, Darkstalker, or Improved Precise Shot
19. Master Thrower
20. Master Thrower

Gear of Note: Gauntlet of Infinite Blades or a modified Quiver Anariel of set to Bandoleer of Infinite Daggers, Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis

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Taken from Lone Drow: Companions of the Hall http://ww2.wizards.com/Books/Wizards/?doc=fr_lonedrowstats

Quiver of Anariel:Quivers of Anariel appear to be typical arrow containers capable of holding a score of arrows. However, the quivers automatically replenish themselves with standard or magical arrows, such that they are always full. Some quivers also create arrows made of special materials, such as adamantine, cold iron, or alchemical silver.

Once an arrow it taken from the quiver, it must be used within 1 round or it vanishes.

Moderate conjuration; CL 7th; Craft Wondrous Item, magic weapon, minor creation; Price 28,000 gp (standard arrows), 29,000 gp (masterwork arrows), 32,000 gp (+1 arrows), 44,000 gp (+2 arrows), 64,000 gp (+3 arrows), 92,000 gp (+4 arrows), 128,000 gp (+5 arrows); Add an additional +6,000 gp for adamantine arrows, +4,005 gp for cold iron arrows, or +200 gp for alchemical silver arrows; Weight 1 lb.

Hallack

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Re: Optimizing darts?
« Reply #4 on: September 15, 2009, 05:23:25 PM »
Drow of the Underdark, Fighter ACF:
Gain +2 to Initiative, Dex to damage against flat-footed opponents within 30'.

Dragon Magazine 310, Alternative Fighter Targeteer:
Switch Bonus Feat for Dex to ranged attacks (subs Str).

Dragon Compendium, Dead Eye Feat:
Gives Dex to ranged attacks.

Complete Warrior, Swashbuckler 3.
Int to damage with finessable weapons, but nothing states it needs to be melee attacks.

How does 3x Dex+Int to each dagger sound?

Precision damage though, so a tad unstable.
That comes with the territory.

Add in some Shadow Blade feat (ToB) for additional Dex to damage.
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ninjarabbit

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Re: Optimizing darts?
« Reply #5 on: September 15, 2009, 05:38:33 PM »
Halfling paragon gives you +2 to damage with a thrown weapon, +2 dex on top of the halfling's advantages with weapon throwing.

Heliomance

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Re: Optimizing darts?
« Reply #6 on: September 15, 2009, 05:48:59 PM »
If you have no objections to ToB, I suspect Bloodstorm Blade would be rather useful.

LimaBeanMage

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Re: Optimizing darts?
« Reply #7 on: September 15, 2009, 06:57:18 PM »
Ah, well that answered most of my questions. The next problem is enchanting these daggers for more damage. The Quiver of Anariel I can see being modified for other types of ammunition, but neither daggers nor darts. Enchanting each individual dagger, to get 16 attacks per round, would be extremely expensive.

Alastar

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Re: Optimizing darts?
« Reply #8 on: September 15, 2009, 07:05:41 PM »
If you have no objections to ToB, I suspect Bloodstorm Blade would be rather useful.
with that you only need one dart.

LimaBeanMage

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Re: Optimizing darts?
« Reply #9 on: September 15, 2009, 07:25:20 PM »
If you have no objections to ToB, I suspect Bloodstorm Blade would be rather useful.
with that you only need one dart.

Well, two, if I'm going to mix with palm throw from master thrower.

Actually, four if I'm going to tread into two weapon fighting. Well, this is debatable, but I'm not sure two weapon fighting would function if you merely had the same blade returning to your hand over and over.

LimaBeanMage

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Re: Optimizing darts?
« Reply #10 on: September 15, 2009, 08:07:59 PM »
Okay, so a rough build I think would be: Human Rogue 1/Swashbuckler 3/Fighter 2/Warblade 1/ Master Thrower 5/ Bloodstorm Blade 4/ Invisible Blade 4

1: Rogue 1 - Able Learner, Point Blank Shot
2: Swashbuckler 1
3: Swashbuckler 2 - Precise Shot
4: Swashbuckler 3
5: Fighter 1 - ACF: Hit and Run tactics
6: Fighter 2 - Weapon Focus (Dagger), Two Weapon Fighting
7: Master Thrower 1
8: Warblade 1
9: Bloodstorm Blade 1 -  Far Shot
10: Bloodstorm Blade 2
11: Bloodstorm Blade 3
12: Bloodstorm Blade 4 - Improved Two Weapon fighting
13: Master Thrower 2
14: Master Thrower 3
15: Master Thrower 4 - Dead Eye
16: Master Thrower 5
17: Invisible Blade 1
18: Invisible Blade 2 - Greater Two Weapon Fighting
19: Invisible Blade 3
20: Invisible Blade 4 - Improved Precise Shot

Able learner in the beginning to satisfy my player's desire for UMD and perform throughout all levels. And I wanted to get master thrower as early as possible, because the player will be starting off at level 7. So, being able to use palm throw when they begin is important.

I am fairly certain I can get more damage out of this build if I switch some of the classes around, but the rogue 1/able learner and 7th level master thrower are pretty much mandatory.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2009, 03:06:27 AM by LimaBeanMage »

LimaBeanMage

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Re: Optimizing darts?
« Reply #11 on: September 17, 2009, 12:20:45 AM »
What ways are there to increase the range of thrown weapons? Of course farshot is useful, but I'm torn between using darts for their range over daggers because being able to full attack at 40 ft is quite an advantage.

Viletta Vadim

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Re: Optimizing darts?
« Reply #12 on: September 17, 2009, 12:40:38 AM »
Actually, unless you can get a consistent source of Sniper's Shot, it really isn't; you can only Sneak Attack out to 30', and anywhere beyond that, you can't apply it, so any range beyond 30' is rather redundant.

wizbenny

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Re: Optimizing darts?
« Reply #13 on: September 17, 2009, 01:46:41 AM »
Scout's Skirmish with Shot on the Move is another possibility in place of Rogue in any of those builds in my opinion.

With Improved Skirmish as well from Complete Scoundrel (not the one listed as an epic feat) you get a +2d6 AND +2AC from one feat by simply moving 20'.

Downside is it doesn't work well with rapid shot, however...  if range is an issue, once you have 40' movement you can simply move forward 20' to be within 30'... fire away, then move back 20' to be out of harm's way.  You get your bonus to AC as well.

LimaBeanMage

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Re: Optimizing darts?
« Reply #14 on: September 17, 2009, 02:42:43 AM »
Well, the scout would remove the possibility of UMD, which is important only for the player's desires, but still important. Though, how would one perform full attacks with skirmish?

As far as sneak attack goes, I'd still like to be able to get up to 30 feet of reach. So, far shot with daggers is 20 feet, and we need 10 more feet to have the most utility.

wizbenny

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Re: Optimizing darts?
« Reply #15 on: September 17, 2009, 02:54:47 AM »
You lose rapid shot, but you still retain many shot (and its derivatives) which can be done "on the run."

We have a scout archer that is FATAL without rapid shot.  Greater Many Shot also allows you to apply your skirmish damage and crits to each shot.  If you had some crit features, in a perfect world you could pump out up to well over 200 damage by mid levels if my math is correct.  And you'd stay out of harm's way. 

Far Shot (one of the Scout's bonus feats) doubles the dart's range as well, making it 40ft.  Since skirmish and manyshot require to be within 30' to function... you're well within your range increment and don't have to flank.

Again, it's just an alternative that goes to play style.


Negative Zero

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Re: Optimizing darts?
« Reply #16 on: September 17, 2009, 03:13:31 AM »
There are several ways to get Rapid Shot and Skirmish. Travel Devotion is a classic. My personal favorite is getting two five-foot steps a turn, and making them into 10-foot steps.

Meatzombie

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Re: Optimizing darts?
« Reply #17 on: September 17, 2009, 04:45:27 AM »
dont forget penetrating strike out of dungeonscape to make sneak attk affect everything.

wizbenny

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Re: Optimizing darts?
« Reply #18 on: September 17, 2009, 09:25:12 AM »
There are several ways to get Rapid Shot and Skirmish. Travel Devotion is a classic. My personal favorite is getting two five-foot steps a turn, and making them into 10-foot steps.

What gives you two five-foot steps a turn?  And can you get four five-foot steps?

What are some other ways to get rapid shot+skirmish??

snakeman830

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Re: Optimizing darts?
« Reply #19 on: September 17, 2009, 03:12:21 PM »
There are several ways to get Rapid Shot and Skirmish. Travel Devotion is a classic. My personal favorite is getting two five-foot steps a turn, and making them into 10-foot steps.

What gives you two five-foot steps a turn?  And can you get four five-foot steps?

What are some other ways to get rapid shot+skirmish??
Only way I know of to get two 5-foot steps a turn is by Elocator.  Turning them into 10ft steps is as easy as a DC 40 tumble check.
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