Author Topic: ¡Lucha Libre!  (Read 2533 times)

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Roboto

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¡Lucha Libre!
« on: September 11, 2009, 03:26:55 AM »
Hey guys,

I have a really interesting character to roleplay made out, but I have no idea how to make lucha libre into a viable form of fighting in 3.5e. I've had very bad experiences with grappling and from what I hear it's not a very good form of combat in general. Luckily, the campaign I'm going to be playing in doesn't feature many enemies that resist grapples.

Anyways, I want to make a character that is an agile and acrobatic grappler and I have little idea what classes or feats to take. I'm starting at level 4 with any source book at my disposal. My DM doesn't like psionics very much but I convinced him to let me use them if I'm otherwise only using my bear hands. Though my party is fairly large (ranging from 5 to 7 players depending on circumstance) I'm obviously going to be fighting solely one on one.

My current line of thinking is taking first level as monk and then taking levels in barbarian or knight until I get the prereqs for reaping mauler. I'm also thinking of making him a warforged just so I can have a wrestling robot.

So, please help me make an effective grappler that I could roleplay as a luchador.

Tonymitsu

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Re: ¡Lucha Libre!
« Reply #1 on: September 11, 2009, 03:50:48 AM »
from what I hear it's not a very good form of combat in general.

This is pretty much correct.

Grappling effectively allows you to neutralize one opponent, leaving your party to deal with whatever is left which is normally bad in situations where your party will be outnumbered.

In addition, while you are neutralizing this one opponent no one else can help you unless they are also built for grappling; for fear of hitting you, or getting pummeled themselves for entering the grapple.

Thirdly, once you get into high levels there are many things that you simply will not be able to grapple due to size/strength differences, or outright immunity (freedom of movement is a 4th level spell).


The foremost grappling class, the Reaping Mauler, is a 5 level prestige class from Complete Warrior.  It's a solidly playable class for mid-level games (10 to 12 or so).  Anything beyond that and you will quickly become very ineffective in combat.


SKRP

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Re: ¡Lucha Libre!
« Reply #2 on: September 11, 2009, 04:17:13 AM »

The foremost grappling class, the Reaping Mauler, is a 5 level prestige class from Complete Warrior.  It's a solidly playable class for mid-level games (10 to 12 or so).  Anything beyond that and you will quickly become very ineffective in combat.



Reaping Mauler doesn't work with enlarge person - the most common grappling buff. This PC is a trap, never take it. Instead, read Short Guide to Grappling.

Roboto

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Re: ¡Lucha Libre!
« Reply #3 on: September 11, 2009, 01:10:33 PM »

The foremost grappling class, the Reaping Mauler, is a 5 level prestige class from Complete Warrior.  It's a solidly playable class for mid-level games (10 to 12 or so).  Anything beyond that and you will quickly become very ineffective in combat.


The campaign is likely only going to run until level 14 or so, but this is very good to know.

woodenbandman

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Re: ¡Lucha Libre!
« Reply #4 on: September 11, 2009, 02:20:09 PM »
Make sure you pick up Multigrab and Greater Multigrab.

A Totemist/War Mind would make a good grappler. Sweeping Strike would allow you to grapple 2 people with one touch attack, leaving them open to all your other attacks. The BEST class, however, is the Black Blood Cultist from some faerun book. It applies all your natural attacks to grapple check damage. Totemist5/BBC 8. That won't come in for a while, however, Totemist is a very solid class. An alternative would be to go Totem Rager.

PhaedrusXY

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Re: ¡Lucha Libre!
« Reply #5 on: September 11, 2009, 02:31:34 PM »
I disagree with much of what Tonymitsu said. Grappling can be very effective if used intelligently. You can effectively nullify many threats that aren't specifically prepared to deal with it. No, it won't work vs. everything, so you should make sure your character has an alternative fighting method. Luckily grappling relies on high strength, so you can just pick up a melee weapon and wail on things that you don't want to grapple.
Grappling effectively allows you to neutralize one opponent, leaving your party to deal with whatever is left which is normally bad in situations where your party will be outnumbered.
He's going to be in a party of 7. They are not likely to often be outnumbered.

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In addition, while you are neutralizing this one opponent no one else can help you unless they are also built for grappling; for fear of hitting you, or getting pummeled themselves for entering the grapple.
Not true. Only ranged attacks hit one of the grapplers randomly. Melee attacks work just fine vs. grappling opponents. Your party rogue(s) will love you, as they can dish out sneak attack damage without having to worry about flanking or taking a full attack from the enemy in response.

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Thirdly, once you get into high levels there are many things that you simply will not be able to grapple due to size/strength differences, or outright immunity (freedom of movement is a 4th level spell).
There are also plenty that you can grapple, especially if you get yourself an Antimagic Torc.
Quote
The foremost grappling class, the Reaping Mauler, is a 5 level prestige class from Complete Warrior.  It's a solidly playable class for mid-level games (10 to 12 or so).  Anything beyond that and you will quickly become very ineffective in combat.
Reaping Mauler is a terrible class. You'd be better off with a straight psiwarrior.
[spoiler]
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Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
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[/spoiler]

Roboto

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Re: ¡Lucha Libre!
« Reply #6 on: September 11, 2009, 09:05:58 PM »
Reaping Mauler is a terrible class. You'd be better off with a straight psiwarrior.

I was thinking first level in Monk for ac bonuses and improved grapple and improved unarmed strike feats then a level in psywarrior for expansion. I am at a loss at where to go from there. I can't be a Black Blood Cultist, though, because I'm roleplaying a Lawful Good Technico character. He's supposed to be fighting for justice, so I can't go and just join an evil cult.

BowenSilverclaw

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Re: ¡Lucha Libre!
« Reply #7 on: September 11, 2009, 09:10:28 PM »
Totemist has some good options for grappling as well :)
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Akalsaris

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Re: ¡Lucha Libre!
« Reply #8 on: September 11, 2009, 10:05:58 PM »
Reaping Mauler is a terrible class. You'd be better off with a straight psiwarrior.

I was thinking first level in Monk for ac bonuses and improved grapple and improved unarmed strike feats then a level in psywarrior for expansion. I am at a loss at where to go from there. I can't be a Black Blood Cultist, though, because I'm roleplaying a Lawful Good Technico character. He's supposed to be fighting for justice, so I can't go and just join an evil cult.

Just keep advancing psiwarrior then - if you take the tashlatora feat, it should advance most of the things you'd care about in a grapple (well, except full BAB).  Black blood cultist is over-rated - it doesn't get its good ability until 8th, by which point your campaign will be finishing up.

KellKheraptis

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Re: ¡Lucha Libre!
« Reply #9 on: September 11, 2009, 10:17:11 PM »
Let's not forget the Fleshraker tango as a druid, and at that level, you could have access to some nice buffs, too.  Hell, go Wildshape Ranger and take the Fleshraker tango back to the primitive with Priveval :)  Free buffs to good stats, -'s to dump stats, and more bad-assery out of your primary form?  OKAY!  Call him Talon and see who gets the reference (just watch out for apes with a Half-Giant-like shockwave attack from pounding the ground).
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Aliment

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Re: ¡Lucha Libre!
« Reply #10 on: September 11, 2009, 10:34:10 PM »
Reaping Mauler is a terrible class. You'd be better off with a straight psiwarrior.

I was thinking first level in Monk for ac bonuses and improved grapple and improved unarmed strike feats then a level in psywarrior for expansion. I am at a loss at where to go from there. I can't be a Black Blood Cultist, though, because I'm roleplaying a Lawful Good Technico character. He's supposed to be fighting for justice, so I can't go and just join an evil cult.
I'm pretty sure you don't get the AC bonus as monk while grappling.  Unarmed Swordsage could be nice especially the Setting Sun throws which are very wrestlingish.  And it meshes well with Psiwarrior!
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PhaedrusXY

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Re: ¡Lucha Libre!
« Reply #11 on: September 12, 2009, 03:04:23 AM »
Reaping Mauler is a terrible class. You'd be better off with a straight psiwarrior.

I was thinking first level in Monk for ac bonuses and improved grapple and improved unarmed strike feats then a level in psywarrior for expansion. I am at a loss at where to go from there. I can't be a Black Blood Cultist, though, because I'm roleplaying a Lawful Good Technico character. He's supposed to be fighting for justice, so I can't go and just join an evil cult.
I'm pretty sure you don't get the AC bonus as monk while grappling.  Unarmed Swordsage could be nice especially the Setting Sun throws which are very wrestlingish.  And it meshes well with Psiwarrior!
Quote
These bonuses to AC apply even against touch attacks or when the monk is flat-footed. She loses these bonuses when she is immobilized or helpless, when she wears any armor, when she carries a shield, or when she carries a medium or heavy load.
It depends on what they meant by "immobilized". I don't think it would include being grappled, personally, but I could see going either way since it isn't a defined condition in D&D.
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

Tonymitsu

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Re: ¡Lucha Libre!
« Reply #12 on: September 12, 2009, 03:50:03 AM »
Only ranged attacks hit one of the grapplers randomly. Melee attacks work just fine vs. grappling opponents. Your party rogue(s) will love you, as they can dish out sneak attack damage without having to worry about flanking or taking a full attack from the enemy in response.

In practice, I've never seen the advantage to the scenario.  If you're standing right there the rogue will have someone to flank with anyway, and the ranged characters will be able to help if they have to.  If whatever it is still isn't dead after that, frankly I'd say you're running the chance a full attack from whatever it is will kill or disable the grappler just as easily as it could the rogue.

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There are also plenty that you can grapple, especially if you get yourself an Antimagic Torc.
Yes, the party rogue will love you for that too I'm sure  :rollseyes
the Torc is great for an arena.  In the field it shuts down your party's gear as well.  I don't know what his group mentality is like, but some people look at those things as, "well I could have done something too, he just doesn't give anyone else a chance before he runs in and shuts things down."

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Reaping Mauler is a terrible class. You'd be better off with a straight psiwarrior.

I worded it badly, but this was precisely a point I was trying to reinforce.

He'd be better off with Totemist too.  As well as Black Blood Cultist.
Things that can be built into great grapplers.

Almost anything except the class designed for grappling.

/shrug  What's that tell you about grappling in general?


I wasn't trying to imply grappling is totally worthless and you should never do it.  I was just agreeing with what he's heard because of what I've seen in games I've played.

Again, in practice situations will (or might) come up where the party will say, "well thank god he was here to hold him down.", but the theory-crafting rarely backs that up.