More trouble with artificers

[Tonymitsu]

Since WotC ate most of the relevant threads with their "upgrade" I figured I'd ask here.

First, eternal wands.
How does an artificer persist spells from these with metamagic spell trigger feature when they don't have charges?  I'm assuming they don't because their description reads "Unlike regular wands, which contain 50 charges...".  Even if you treat them as a 2 charges/day item, what happens when you try to apply a metamagic spell trigger with insufficient charges remaining?
And while we're here, how exactly do they go about creating eternal wands of lesser vigor, swift haste and other various cleric buffs when they can only contain arcane spells?

Second, the Unfettered Heroism/Wand Surge trick.
I was never very clear on the details but the intended result was to use the Power Surge infusion to have an item that will persist UH every day and never run out of charges.  Anyone know of the exact method?

[woodenbandman]

To your first question: There's an infusion for that. It gives the thing metamagic infusion for free. 3rd level, no limit. It's still spell trigger, so it's all good.

To your second question, I think the answer is Geomancer cheese. Although I don't recall the restriction of arcane only.

To your last question: I haven't a damn clue. Sorry.

[Havok4]

Second, the Unfettered Heroism/Wand Surge trick.
I was never very clear on the details but the intended result was to use the Power Surge infusion to have an item that will persist UH every day and never run out of charges.  Anyone know of the exact method?

Okay here is how it works. First get your hands on or build a staff which contains unfettered heroism. Then use the lvl 3 infusions metamagic item and power surge on it to apply persistent spell and cast it without spending charges. You now have contentious unfettered heroism which gives you one temporary action point that is refreshed each round. Take the wand surge feat which allows you to spend an action point in the place of a charge from a spell trigger item. You now have effectively infinite usage of all your wands and staffs. If your dm does not allow you to make custom staffs then use a schema which can be found in magic of ebberon, it is effectively an once per day scroll and persistant spell can be applied with the metamagic spell completion artificer class feature.

[KellKheraptis]

While we're on the topic of artificers, of which I know precious little, how do they get 9th level spells/9th level spell effects?  I don't recall it going up that high on their table (which doesn't mean anything, given I can get a mystic ranger and a chameleon to each cast 9th level spells).

[Havok4]

They do not cast the spells themselves but instead make items that are capable of producing such effects, like staffs or scrolls. (and I would like to know who the 9th level chameleon spell thing works)

[PhaedrusXY]

While we're on the topic of artificers, of which I know precious little, how do they get 9th level spells/9th level spell effects?  I don't recall it going up that high on their table (which doesn't mean anything, given I can get a mystic ranger and a chameleon to each cast 9th level spells).

Most of the stuff they do is from Use Magic Device, which they are the masters of. They can also craft magic items like nobody's business, which goes well with that.

[Tonymitsu]

While we're on the topic of artificers, of which I know precious little, how do they get 9th level spells/9th level spell effects?  I don't recall it going up that high on their table (which doesn't mean anything, given I can get a mystic ranger and a chameleon to each cast 9th level spells).

for the purposes of qualifying for crafting prerequisites, their caster level is considered to be their artificer level + 2.  Once they hit level 15 they are considered CL 17th and qualify for 9th level spells.  They simply have to make the appropriate Use Magic Device check to emulate that caster level (DC 10 + caster level 17th = 37).  If the item duplicates a spell effect (scroll, wand, etc), then it uses the artificers actual character level to determine level dependent effects (a 3rd level artificer would have a 3d6 fireball, or a Bands of Steel that lasts 3 rounds).
You might be thinking of their infusion table, which is their class "spell list" (things they don't have to make UMD checks for, if you will  ), which only goes as high as level 6.


So if it costs you a 3rd level infusion to persist something from an eternal wand, does that mean you can't use the Metamagic spell trigger class feature with an item with insufficient charges remaining?

And I looked over Geomancer, admittedly briefly, and I'm not sure I follow.  Versatility states they can mix and match parameters to gain the "maximum possible advantage" for his spells.  Does that follow to include "this spell is now considered arcane since this item only holds arcane spells"?  Sounds like that'd be DM fiat to me.
And yeah, Eternal wands are mentioned in ECS and MIC and both times it says arcane spell of 3rd level or lower, though ECS apparently has more restrictions including a maximum CL 6th.

[KellKheraptis]

Geomancers can explicitly change the source of their spells.  Further, the Hexer and Alternate Source Spell (and really, Unseen Seer too) all change the source of spells.  If it has ever existed as one, it can and has existed as the other.  Part also of why Erudite Spell to Power is so wicked

[Tonymitsu]

Ah okay.

By virtue of "faking it in the same manner as this caster has done it I, the artificer, can make a UMD check to do the same."

But still, the metamagic spell trigger class feature says that you can apply a metamagic feat to a spell trigger item by using a number of extra charges equal to the spell level adjustment (so persisting a spell from a wand would use 7 charges).  What happens if there aren't that many charges left?  Do you get the effect but the item is drained dry?  Does it simply not work?

[snow_white]

You could always wait until lvl 11 and use Schemas and Metamagic Spell Completion.
They work once a day with spells up to 6th level and last time I read about them they were cheaper than Eternal Wands.

Any sane DM would rule that there isn't enough charges in the wand to "empower" the metamagic and so it wouldn't simply work.

[Azrael]

The only problem with using power surge is it costs xp, so if its something you literally do EVERY DAY, even off days when you don't have any encounters it could be a problem. As long as you only do it some days (which may be metagaming a bit) its ok because its only like 15 xp or something ridiculously small like that.

[Havok4]

Well you really only have to cast it once as you can fuel the next days usage on wand surge.

[Caelic]

When dealing with Artificers, it's important to remember that they have two similar tools for different jobs.

Metamagic Spell Trigger is for situations where you have no time to prepare; you need a big bang RIGHT NOW, and you don't care about the cost.  It's expensive, but it's fast.  It's not something you use for everyday jobs like buffing.

Metamagic Infusion is for situations where you DO have time to prepare.  It's far more cost-efficient than Metamagic Spell Trigger, but takes time and materials.  Metamagic Infusion is what you use for everyday jobs like buffing.