Author Topic: Making the best out of a single class Paladin?  (Read 5425 times)

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Daytranno

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Making the best out of a single class Paladin?
« on: September 07, 2009, 08:14:37 AM »
Hey all,

So we've started a new campaign and the rule of the day is single class only (for now).  One of the guys wants to play a paladin.  As a reward for playing single class, we were blessed with exceptional stats, which may or may not play in to how to optimize the character(s) for twenty levels.

All standard books are allowed, with the exception of BoED and BoVD. 

Here is what we've got so far:

Human Paladin
Level: 1

Strength: 18
Intel: 16
Wisdom: 16
Dex: 8
Con: 17
Cha: 17


Feats:

Power Attack -- Open to retrain
Monkey Grip (this is a flavor issue, the player loves to run around with the 2H Weapon striking down baddies like the hand of god) -- Open to retrain


Beyond this all options are open.  After having searched the forums, Paladin is often taken as dip and rarely really pushed very far.  Here the DM wants the players to push pretty far in the class (He may relax the rules after level 12 or so). 

What are your suggestions for feat chains and possible skill point spends en route to level 20???

Emy

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Re: Making the best out of a single class Paladin?
« Reply #1 on: September 07, 2009, 09:40:07 AM »
If I were your player, I'd probably be a mounted charger of some sort. Invest in Mounted Combat/Spirited Charge and a lance. I'd start by riding around on a Magebred [ECS] Mule at level 1, since I couldn't afford a horse. I'd upgrade my mount when possible, probably using the Warbeast template [MM2].

Keep Power Attack, but shift it to level 3, when it actually makes more of a difference (it's not very good without multipliers and with only 1 BAB), ditch Monkey Grip. I can wield a two-handed weapon just fine without it. Battle Blessing [CC] is a good idea once I can cast spells. I'll also grab a flaw, since paladins don't get any bonus feats. Charging Smite [PH2] instead of a special mount at level 5. The special mount is good, but so is charging smite. Since I'm using warbeast animals anyway, charging smite it is.

So.

Human Paladin 1
Maxed Skills: Handle Animal, Ride, Concentration, 3 others
Str 18, Int 16, Wis 16, Dex 8, Con 17, Cha 17
Starting gear (assuming average wealth of 150gp. After purchases, 38gp 1sp 7cp remain): Magebred Mule (16gp), Lance (10gp), Dagger (2gp), Club (0gp), Spiked Studded Leather Armor (75gp), 2x Waterskin (2gp), Backpack (2gp), Flint and Steel (1gp), 10x Chalk (1sp), 10x Candle (1sp), Bedroll (1sp), Winter Blanket (5sp), 3x Torch (3cp), 3x Day's Rations (3gp)

The spiked armor is so that you threaten at normal range. The dagger and club are alternate damage types in case you run into skeletons or zombies or similar. Your main attack is the lance, wielded 2-handed from the back of your mule, for an attack of +7, hitting for (1d8+6)*3 [21-42dmg] at level 1.

Feat progression:
Level 1: Mounted Combat, Ride-by Attack, Spirited Charge
Level 3: Power Attack
Level 6: Animal Devotion
Level 9: Battle Blessing
Level 12: Sword of the Arcane Ordeahahahaha who am I kidding I don't know anything about paladins

ninjarabbit

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Re: Making the best out of a single class Paladin?
« Reply #2 on: September 07, 2009, 10:53:06 AM »
Divine might needs to be worked in there.

KellKheraptis

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Re: Making the best out of a single class Paladin?
« Reply #3 on: September 07, 2009, 12:35:18 PM »
+1 Sword of the Arcane Order.  Make that uberbuffed charge as a touch attack :D
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skydragonknight

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Re: Making the best out of a single class Paladin?
« Reply #4 on: September 07, 2009, 03:18:23 PM »
My typical Paladin these days follows this standard formula:

1 Power Attack
1 Law/Protection Devotion(Complete Champion)
3 Healing Devotion(Complete Champion)
(5) Charging Smite ACF (Player's Handbook 2)
6 Extra Smiting(Complete Warrior)/Awesome Smite(Complete Champion)
9 The other feat choice at level 6.

A mix of offense, healing and possibly defense.
Sometimes I trade spellcasting for bonus feats using the Holy Warrior ACF from Complete Champion, which lets me dump Wisdom. Other times I keep spellcasting, just for the Rhino's Rush spell from the Spell Compendium, which is cast as a swift action and doubles your damage on a charge (this + Charging Smite = alpha strike).
It always seems like the barrels around here have something in them.

bearsarebrown

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Re: Making the best out of a single class Paladin?
« Reply #5 on: September 07, 2009, 03:39:13 PM »
Don't know how helpful this is but I like to take Serenity on my paladins and just dump Cha. Then I mix them with monk or cleric or anything else Wis based.

skydragonknight

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Re: Making the best out of a single class Paladin?
« Reply #6 on: September 07, 2009, 03:41:45 PM »
Don't know how helpful this is but I like to take Serenity on my paladins and just dump Cha. Then I mix them with monk or cleric or anything else Wis based.

Stats are not an issue here, and there's no multiclassing for this character.
It always seems like the barrels around here have something in them.

KellKheraptis

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Re: Making the best out of a single class Paladin?
« Reply #7 on: September 07, 2009, 03:53:45 PM »
I'd go with Divine Might, Divine Vigor, Sword of the Arcane Order, Holy Warrior, and Battle Blessing.  If you've got decent Int, maybe Educated and Knowledge Devotion.  Really though, if you've got Arcane Strike and you use that at the same time as Divine Might and Wraithstrike, you'll prolly pulverize whatever's in front of your minotaur hammer (just got done playing WCII, so I've still got their pally's stuck in my mind).
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Dictum Mortuum

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Re: Making the best out of a single class Paladin?
« Reply #8 on: September 07, 2009, 06:47:06 PM »
Since people mention sword of arcane order, grab the mystra substitution levels from the same book, they are just awesome (although, you may want to keep the 4th level unchanged - depending on whether you like divine feats or not).
Take that substitution feature from dungeonscape that gives you a bonus when you charge instead of a mount. Mix rhino's charge (?) spell and maybe some way to pounce. Even when not able to charge people you can wraithstrike + power attack + haste (with sword of arcane order) and all that pesky targeted greater dispels ^-^
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Emy

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Re: Making the best out of a single class Paladin?
« Reply #9 on: September 07, 2009, 07:18:59 PM »
Take that substitution feature from dungeonscape that gives you a bonus when you charge instead of a mount. Mix rhino's charge (?) spell and maybe some way to pounce. Even when not able to charge people you can wraithstrike + power attack + haste (with sword of arcane order) and all that pesky targeted greater dispels ^-^

The substitution feature is Charging Smite from Player's Handbook II. The spell you're thinking of is rhino's rush. Pounce is difficult to get as a single-classed paladin... the easiest thing to do would probably be Travel Devotion for pseudo-pouncing, but that wouldn't get the nice charging damage bonuses.

Tonymitsu

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Re: Making the best out of a single class Paladin?
« Reply #10 on: September 07, 2009, 08:46:57 PM »
Take that substitution feature from dungeonscape that gives you a bonus when you charge instead of a mount. Mix rhino's charge (?) spell and maybe some way to pounce. Even when not able to charge people you can wraithstrike + power attack + haste (with sword of arcane order) and all that pesky targeted greater dispels ^-^

The substitution feature is Charging Smite from Player's Handbook II. The spell you're thinking of is rhino's rush. Pounce is difficult to get as a single-classed paladin... the easiest thing to do would probably be Travel Devotion for pseudo-pouncing, but that wouldn't get the nice charging damage bonuses.

With DM approval:

Boots of the Lion's Charge:

Lion's Charge- 2nd level spell as cast by an 8th level ranger (CL 4th).

(2 x 4 x 2000 gp) = 16,000 gp use-activated item
Divided by:
(5/3 charges per day = 12/3) = 9,600 gp final cost.

Results:  3 times per day as a swift action you can make a full attack at the end of a charge.


EDIT:  Depending on how deep his pockets are, 64,000 gp gives a continuous effect.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2009, 08:49:38 PM by Tonymitsu »

KellKheraptis

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Re: Making the best out of a single class Paladin?
« Reply #11 on: September 07, 2009, 08:49:30 PM »
At that point I think I'd just spring for the 16k version and make it constant :P
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Tonymitsu

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Re: Making the best out of a single class Paladin?
« Reply #12 on: September 07, 2009, 08:54:20 PM »
At that point I think I'd just spring for the 16k version and make it constant :P

True but every round you charge you'd have to use your swift action to use the boots.  I don't know how much paladins value their swift actions.

KellKheraptis

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Re: Making the best out of a single class Paladin?
« Reply #13 on: September 07, 2009, 08:59:51 PM »
Unless there is a specific spell you want to cast via Battle Blessing, chances are good that charging is going to do WAY more for you.  Also, as an alternative, consider getting a means of flight (Dragonborn comes to mind, as does Raptoran) and taking Great Flyby Attack.  Especially if you have SotAO, since then you can Arcane Strike along with Divine Might the whole way across.
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Kuroimaken

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Re: Making the best out of a single class Paladin?
« Reply #14 on: September 07, 2009, 10:00:59 PM »
+1 to the charging smite ACF. Mounts are fairly useless in dungeon-like environments, which every adventuring party eventually finds itself in. Plus, you can still get the most out of a regular mount, it just won't be pretty.
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Daytranno

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Re: Making the best out of a single class Paladin?
« Reply #15 on: September 07, 2009, 10:09:20 PM »
Thanks for the input.  What would anyone reccomend to do for building up the power of smite?

Kuroimaken

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Re: Making the best out of a single class Paladin?
« Reply #16 on: September 07, 2009, 10:45:36 PM »
By definition, smite is an addition to a charging build. Since you're going with Human, unfortunately the Kalashtar racial feat (Dancing with shadows methinks) is out. Divine feats tend to make a neat addition since you can't really use Turn Undead for much of anything, and I believe they were already mentioned. Since Battle Blessing is essentially auto-quicken for Paladin spells, you're short on feats and they have next to no buffs, DMM isn't an option either (even under optimal conditions it still wouldn't be that good for a Paladin though).

Since multiclassing is initially out, your best bet is to stick with one thing at a time. Now might be a good time to consider what your dream gear will be like.

Also, don't forget the rest of the party. What companions are you looking at here? Self-sufficiency is good, but having a buddy Wizard enlarging you frees you to do more stuff.
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Daytranno

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Re: Making the best out of a single class Paladin?
« Reply #17 on: September 08, 2009, 12:07:23 AM »
Really I think he wants to be mass melee damage at the end of the day.  Thus his gravitating toward MonkeyGrip etc.  I don't think spells are really his thing at this point.  He wants to be that righteous kind of melee character, bringing pain down through melee firepower.

Akalsaris

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Re: Making the best out of a single class Paladin?
« Reply #18 on: September 08, 2009, 12:34:46 AM »
Yeah...depending how good he is at that kind of math, mebbe the player would do well with the typical power attack charger chain of power attack, imp bull rush, shock trooper, and leap attack. 

War Devotion from CC might be a good feat at higher levels for simple to remember +Dmg.  Law Devotion is another great divine feat for paladins. 

skydragonknight

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Re: Making the best out of a single class Paladin?
« Reply #19 on: September 08, 2009, 12:41:44 AM »
Pouncing is essentially overkill. Rhino's Rush, a Valorous Weapon, Charging Smite and two-handed Power Attack give an effective +15 damage/level (3 x (1 from smite +2 from power attack +2 from charging smite)) on top of triple weapon damage, and up until level 15ish enemies average at 12.5 hit points/level until level 15ish when it scales quicker. After that point it scales faster, but at level 15 he can pick up Leap Attack(he can't pick it up any earlier to that since Jump is a cross class skill) which will make up for it.
It always seems like the barrels around here have something in them.