Help me optimize d20 Warfare

[KellKheraptis]

Well, sort of, on the Wish Economy.  Bear in mind if it even remotely parallels real life, governments will invest vast resources in the best weaponry and defense, which in this case translates as epic and high level magic, and mythals.  Imagine assaulting the stronghold of a 35th level Wizard/PrC/PrC etc.  All defenders notwithstanding, that wizard will have half his usual bread-and-butter spells usable at will via vanguard spells from the mythal.  Furthermore, he's going to have a list of buffs that last indefinitely longer than a dragon, and if he has a brain, he made it tenacious, so it can't ever be dispelled, only supressed, and chances are at a way higher caster level than his own via magical augmentation before casting the mythal in the first place.  And that's just ONE DUDE.  Now how about the raw resources an entire kingdom like Thay can throw around on stuff like this.

The statement about humanoids making poor long term conscripts is simple logistical fact.  They have to eat, sleep, and drink, where as most outsiders don't need to eat or drink, and some don't even need to sleep.  Constructs and outsiders don't need to do any of those.  Just not needing to breathe makes for a whole new set of battlefield options : ever seen what happens to an army that's suddenly underwater?  Now add in the enemy army still functioning at 100%, while trying to coordinate an organized withdrawal.  Result is the meat sacks get slaughtered, mooks or not

Last but certainly not least, Dragons deserve their own section with a capital letter.  Not only do they have the most bad ass raw stats, they also come pre-packaged with wicked natural weapons that are worse than most manufactured ones without any augmentation at all.  Throw on one buff spell and you have a near guaranteed autokill against a single important target (wraithstrike).  One other and they can laugh at even warlocks and RTA sniper mages (scintilating scales).  Buff dex with a ring of evasion (which IMO all dragons should invest in) and they don't even really worry about their opposing energy type, if they have one, without wasting feats on overcoming it.  And on top of it all, most can fly, some can burrow, a good number can swim, and I'm sure there's a handful than can do all three.  They're like the Delta Force of DnD, and share half the name for good reason.  And the worst of the lot you won't even know are dragons until it's already too late

[bearsarebrown]

Spells per day becomes a HUGE limitation on hour long battles, don't got about that people! Especially when you have a couple Counterspellers in your ranks to waste opponents slots.

[Akalsaris]

Akalsaris:

Thanks, that's exactly the type of info I was looking for.

Sure, my pleasure  

Anklebite: one of the points that I was trying to make is that most characters shouldn't optimize to slaughter mooks, because that's not a very viable tactic in D&D warfare - instead you should optimize to slaughter the other high levels leading those mooks.  It's like making an evoker who specializes in area-of-effect damage spells in 3.5 - you can do it, but there are better options out there.

Also, the only time I've encountered an army of mooks in a pre-made module is in the 2E conversion of the 1E Against the Giants series, where we ran into an army of 500 standard orcs while the PCs are at 9th level.  We're still running the encounter (it's PBP), but it looks like we've agreed with the 500 mooks to ally against the hobgoblins before we fight each other - and at 9th level I'm not so sure we'll die if we take on the army.  Our last encounter was against ~20 ogres and ~15 hill giants, which is a small army of its own, and waay more deadly IMO.  I think that Gygax expected the PCs to fight 500 orcs and win or escape.  

Kell: it's actually pretty reasonable to assume that epic/artifact-level and high level magic isn't for sale in the world, especially if you aren't playing with epic rules.  Why would a wizard of that power want anything that the government has to offer?  As Kuroi pointed out, there's probably also rules that regulate behavior among high-level spellcasters just as there are among deities - nobody wants to start WWIII, for example, so Miracle and Wish spells might be available but a bad idea to use, just like nuclear deterrence.  That seems to be the case in Forgotten Realms, where the Symbul and Elminister are each more powerful than all of Thay combined.  Though I hate the power politics in FR, since it all boils down to the deities in the end there.  

Another thing to consider is that occupying territory is actually pretty important - you might have a crack squad of 10 planetars that you've bound, but even if you annihilate an army there's no way that the 11 of you can effectively control a large area - so you need your own mooks to do that, which means that part of your strategy for your high-power guys has to be protecting those wimps and whatever administration that you've set in place - otherwise you're going to be facing nonstop guerilla warfare ala Vietnam or the Middle East right now.

[bearsarebrown]

Another thing to consider is that occupying territory is actually pretty important - you might have a crack squad of 10 planetars that you've bound, but even if you annihilate an army there's no way that the 11 of you can effectively control a large area - so you need your own mooks to do that, which means that part of your strategy for your high-power guys has to be protecting those wimps and whatever administration that you've set in place - otherwise you're going to be facing nonstop guerilla warfare ala Vietnam or the Middle East right now.

Divination and dimensional travel trivialize this.

[Negative Zero]

I would hardly say that it trivializes the issue. If there are hundreds of tiny insurgent groups, you're not really going to get anything done by using divination to find them, teleporting to where they are, and then killing them effortlessly. If they were organized, you could probably take them out together, but that is very rarely the case.

[Anklebite]

the planetars can summon thier own backup using cleric spells.  each one binds another planetar, which binds another.... ect. or they could use bind lesser outsiders like latern archons.  better yet, get a druid to cast shambler(guardian mode), and he can solo control a large region.

[Akalsaris]

Also, divination and dimensional travel both assume that your side has access to a mid-high level wizard who is willing to cast these spells, which if you have to deal with 30-100 different groups, should be exorbitantly expensive for a kingdom (seriously - have you seen the cost for getting a spell cast in the PHB, let alone in a combat situation?) - and also a wizard who is willing to risk teleporting into a camp of insurgents for you, not to mention powerful enough to send enough people in to effectively combat the opposing side. 

It also assumes that the other side doesn't use any of the relatively cheap methods to block divinations (like...lead walls...), and that the area is open to dimensional travel.  And what if the opposing side has their own divination & dimensional travel to evade you and kill your sides' weaker people?  I don't think you can assume that the battle comes down to 200 mooks + a wizard vs. 200 mooks + a fighter - any side that isn't spending money or training on equally high level spell-casters is probably getting its golds' worth in much higher level meleers, or in army support units like bards and crusaders, or in securing peace treaties and trade, etc.

I think a lot of people are looking at this the same way they see a wizard vs. fighter thread - yes, wizards have all the options and can counter any given tactic that the fighter tries, but not every wizard has all or even some of those options, and likewise most D&D kingdoms won't have access to cheap magical firepower - and even those that do have access won't be able to use all of the tricks that are open to them.

I also really don't think epic level stuff should really be considered very seriously, because it doesn't make sense within the settings - FRCS is the most high-powered campaign setting I know of, and only has 3-4 epic-level casters of note, each of whom are reclusive and rarely willing to leave their domains.  The Simbul is the only epic caster in that setting who actually uses her spells to fight armies regularly, and even then she tends to concentrate on neutralizing Thay's archmages rather than slaughtering mooks (and personally I think she's just a really lame plot device thrown in to give a bullshit excuse for why Thay doesn't rule the world)

[Kuroimaken]

If you stop to think about it (and I believe I mentioned this already), if you have the resources to wage war on any scale with a mid-to-high level wizard in your payroll, then you don't have the need or reason to wage war at all.  Realistically speaking, there are only two common reasons to go to war: money and food. The second one can be reasonably supplied by a large number of reasonably-leveled clerics (and if your country has no self-sufficiency whatsoever food-wise, it doesn't actually exist anyway, as people would literally simply move to greener pastures). The first one is a little trickier to come by, but typically involves control of trade routes (refer to the Arabs controlling the inner Mediterranean Sea that lead to the Great Navigations and the "discovery" of America. Also, Crusades). Then there are the other, more "classical" reasons - religious intolerance, long-time blood feud of unknown reasons that typically involves someone wanting to fuck the princess of the other kingdom, etc..

However, committing money and effort to move armies in war is a serious investment, which means some financial return must come of it. This is one of the reasons that large empires tended to fall apart in a few years' time - it eventually becomes impossible to economically sustain such a massive amount of populace. In some cases, the very machine that is war is what lead a kingdom/empire to prosperity, to the point where continuous expansion was required to mantain it.

With all that in mind, considering the cost of training/hiring spellcasters against the cost of training/hiring common infantry, infantry wins out even though it's considerably less effective. This is why I think the most feared armies would be composed of constructs and undead - low (if existant) maintenance cost. Sure, a high-level Wizard could do pretty much the entire job by himself - but he'd also cost such an astronomical sum that he'd eventually prove too taxing, and being just one guy, he can't keep control over every region conquered like a regular army could. And that's before even considering things like guerilla tactics and whatnot. This is why I think warfare in D&D would mix and match units rather than relying solely on spellcasting, before even taking into account the level of magic in the world.

[Negative Zero]

I hardly think that the only reasons for war are due to necessity or monetary gain. I mean, think of all the wars going on in real life. How many of them are because people are hungry or poor? I argue that it is human nature to fight, and it would take something impressive to keep war from occurring (and yes, mutually assured destruction is pretty impressive).

[Kuroimaken]

I hardly think that the only reasons for war are due to necessity or monetary gain. I mean, think of all the wars going on in real life. How many of them are because people are hungry or poor? I argue that it is human nature to fight, and it would take something impressive to keep war from occurring (and yes, mutually assured destruction is pretty impressive).

Hate notwithstanding, waging actual large-scale war is a big deal-breaker. While there ARE a surprisingly large amount of conflicts going on around the world right now, most of them are localized and relatively small in scale. Contrast with something like the 100 Years War or the War of the Roses.

[Endarire]

The Spartan Handbook; or how to rock the phalanx!

Supercharged AC but still quite vulnerable to save effects compared to their AC.

[Brainpiercing]

I think it's largely impossible to imagine this sort of scenario without giving clear definitions as to how the game world will look. Of course, in a world where mooks are a fact, and commoners never level, you'll have big mass battles of these low-level guys.
But in a world where commoners and NPCs can level, you'll have people levelling all the time, and especially from one battle to the next.

Perhaps a good idea would be to look at the Leadership table to see the level composition of a given number of people being led by the appropriate leader. Say a kingdom has a level 10 king, look up the followers and then add mooks. If a country has a level 20 king, it'll look a lot different.

Now unfortunately, I think we DO have prices for hirelings in some books, so a group of Wartroll mercenaries with adequate equipment will easily be worth more than a far larger number of mooks. And a kingdom in itself is hardly viable without access to considerable funds.

I think a good place to look for army composition is actually Warhammer, because there is a similar problem that high-level things completely destroy low-level things, and without limiting the number of points being spent on high-level guys most effective armies would rather have a few big guys than hundreds of little ones.

Also think Stealth Fighters vs. armies of cheap Migs. What would you prefer? Cost effect ratio must consider survivability.

Now I have my personal ideas on D&D warfare, which is that warfare is largely modern. People duck and cover rather than charge in hordes. Trenches are necessary because they can break LoE. Fortresses are like WWI domed turrets, because not having a roof=you're dead. Armies are organised in small squads. Low-level mooks usually just aid-another on their leader, who can then swing with maximum force. Countries must put a lot of resources into their armies, or else they will have a really hard time competing. You could have tanks made of permanencied Animated Objetcs, summoned outsiders, haunt-shifted stuff, etc.

Of course you can intentionally make it like WWI, where every spellcaster is a machine gun or a gas discharge unit. You'll have thousands of casualties piling up in each battle, and survivabilities of several days at the most. (That being the days BEFORE the battle ).

[TT30]

Heroes of Battle is sourcebook for d20 army warfare. I think that outsiders undeads and constructs would be good addition to any army, but usually too expensive. Simple Flesh Golem costs 20000gp and It can be killed with siege weapons and it doesn't take lot of hits.

Siege weapons are in Heroes of Battle page 63. I think human armies would use siege weapons a lot. That 80000gp Iron Golem, Dragon or Demon would be impossible to kill with swords and axes, but few hits with heavy trebuchet or ballista will take it down.

With 10000 men army i would divide them to 4000 melee troops, 3000 bow/ranged troops and 3000 siege weapon users. Maybe 200*light ballista, 100*heavy ballista, 200*light trebuchet and 100 heavy trebuchet or even more siege weapons if possible. Army should be able to build siege weapons from raw goods. Any spellcaster spotted would be primary target and 100 heavy trebuchet shots from 1500 feat would take most down instantly.

Of course most effective low level instant army killer would be Locate City Bomb. Flash Frost Energy substituded born of three thunder Explosive Locate City with snowcasting and arcane thesis. That 6lvl Wizard moves far enough behind enemy army so that enemy army is in area but allied army is not. Then he throws few Locate city bombs with caster level1, most creatures in 10 mile radius are dead. Good item for that wizard would be ring of Diamond Mind:Action before thought so that he wouln't fail that ref save.

[Kuroimaken]

Of course most effective low level instant army killer would be Locate City Bomb. Flash Frost Energy substituded born of three thunder Explosive Locate City with snowcasting and arcane thesis. That 6lvl Wizard moves far enough behind enemy army so that enemy army is in area but allied army is not. Then he throws few Locate city bombs with caster level1, most creatures in 10 mile radius are dead. Good item for that wizard would be ring of Diamond Mind:Action before thought so that he wouln't fail that ref save.

Dude, the Locate City bomb is practically TO. It's simply not advisable...

[Bozwevial]

Of course most effective low level instant army killer would be Locate City Bomb. Flash Frost Energy substituded born of three thunder Explosive Locate City with snowcasting and arcane thesis. That 6lvl Wizard moves far enough behind enemy army so that enemy army is in area but allied army is not. Then he throws few Locate city bombs with caster level1, most creatures in 10 mile radius are dead. Good item for that wizard would be ring of Diamond Mind:Action before thought so that he wouln't fail that ref save.

Dude, the Locate City bomb is practically TO. It's simply not advisable...

True, but it would be funny to see precisely how ridiculous an army pulling out all the stops would be (barring Pun-Pun, of course, since that's just no fun).

That'd be an interesting challenge, actually...Give everyone a set of guidelines (total army wealth, size, levels allowed, etcetera) and see what TO armies emerge.

[KellKheraptis]

Something I remembered last night, aren't there rules for mobs?  I would imagine a mob working in tandem (i.e. using Teamwork rules) would be a lot stronger than any of it's components.

[Havok4]

Of course most effective low level instant army killer would be Locate City Bomb. Flash Frost Energy substituded born of three thunder Explosive Locate City with snowcasting and arcane thesis. That 6lvl Wizard moves far enough behind enemy army so that enemy army is in area but allied army is not. Then he throws few Locate city bombs with caster level1, most creatures in 10 mile radius are dead. Good item for that wizard would be ring of Diamond Mind:Action before thought so that he wouln't fail that ref save.

Dude, the Locate City bomb is practically TO. It's simply not advisable...

Reminds me of the whole mutually assured destruction thing that happened in the cold war. Cheesy wizards are the nukes of DnD.

[KellKheraptis]

Of course most effective low level instant army killer would be Locate City Bomb. Flash Frost Energy substituded born of three thunder Explosive Locate City with snowcasting and arcane thesis. That 6lvl Wizard moves far enough behind enemy army so that enemy army is in area but allied army is not. Then he throws few Locate city bombs with caster level1, most creatures in 10 mile radius are dead. Good item for that wizard would be ring of Diamond Mind:Action before thought so that he wouln't fail that ref save.

Dude, the Locate City bomb is practically TO. It's simply not advisable...

Reminds me of the whole mutually assured destruction thing that happened in the cold war. Cheesy wizards are the nukes of DnD.

Don't forget the JPM's with AftS doing that...though that's more like a Doomsday Device, given that it would depressurize the mantle (assuming an earth-like planet) and ultimately send the planet into an ice age if it didn't cause the entire crust to shatter off entirely.

[Akalsaris]

Let's look at the available types:

Aberration: Not really worth it most of the time - most of these are insane or irrevocably evil - and the cost of having a mind flayer or beholder is likely to outstrip its usefulness to the group.  Choice pick: Mind flayer?

Animal: medium-priced, but not too dependable, and you will need somebody to direct them.  Great as mounts and maybe small groups of druids, but that's about it.  Choice picks: warbeast dire tiger!  Baleen whale!

Construct: very expensive and requires a high level wizard to get them - I can see 1 or 2 high level constructs as the core of a fighting unit, but mostly they don't seem worth it.  Still, high DR coupled with magic immunity is nice.  Choice pick: Helmed Horror!

Dragon: also very expensive, but highly mobile, intelligent, durable, and damaging - and there are class features and spells to gain these as allies too.  A pretty top recruit in my opinion, especially the good-aligned ones.  Choice pick: Whites and wyverns are stupid enough to be cheap, while silvers are the most likely to help a good cause.

Elemental: Can be cost-effective to planar bind them or have a cleric rebuke them under control - I'd rate these between outsiders and undead personally.  Choice picks: air elemental scouts, or water elementals in a sea battle!

Fey: Probably good as scouts and maybe you can bribe them with berries or something.  I don't know - I'd die before my overlord hired a bunch of nixies personally.  Choice picks: pixie scouts!

Giant: A classic member of Team Evil's armies.  They're generally stupid, which makes them cheap, and can be very effective supplements to other units.  Choice picks: hill giants probably have the maximum HD to stupid ratio, while wartrolls' listed cost is CHEAP for their effectiveness.

Humanoid: Cheap and affordable, and the fantasy standard assumption.  For ease of hiring and cost these can be worth it in almost any fight, especially since they tend to be the most intelligent cheap buys.  Pretty much every army will have at least a few of these.  Choice picks: dwarves can rock pretty hard, and I love me some water orc barbarians.

Magical beast: Not much here really - unicorns or blink dogs might be nice...

Monstrous humanoid: These are some weirdos and unlikely to be found in large numbers, but they can help fill niche roles.  Choice picks: maybe minotaurs or umber hulks?

Oozes: Um, no.  Choice picks: gelatinous cube mounts!

Outsider: Great picks, but you'll need a mid-level spellcaster to get these and you can only bind/ally a few at a time, which makes them nice leaders and support.  Can be expensive if using planar ally too, so these are really the top choices for rich kingdoms with powerful spellcasters.  Choice picks: the planetar!

Plant type: for a druid, an army of shamblers and treants is pretty feasible and the best substitute for undead - for anyone else this is a pass.  Very cheap too.  Choice picks: I'm a fan of treants

Undead: medium cost and tireless, and need a low-mid level cleric.  But they are generally evil and have severe alignment/creepiness issues.  For Team Evil, they're a no-brainer and the backbone of an army - for good armies you're probably better off with something else.  Shadows and wights can also create spawn, cheaply enlarging your forces.

Vermin: Unless you're being thematic, these aren't worth it in my book, except maybe a few scorpions that the high level druid turns into insectile ATATs.

Brief analysis: if you want to build an army on the cheap, you're looking at a mix of weak undead, humanoids, giants, and animals.  If you're moderately wealthy, you'd probably want stronger undead and giants, and then possibly a dragon and a high level spellcaster on retain for items, constructs, or summoning.  If you're fabulously rich or have cheap high level spellcasters, then constructs, outsiders, undead, and dragons are going to make up your army.

I really think that an E6 game would be a good testing ground for D&D 3.5 warfare, since it's the point where undead come on board as a cheap option, but the really crazy stuff is still unobtainable, and a spellcaster is still more useful as a support guy than anything.

[Kuroimaken]

Monstrous humanoid: These are some weirdos and unlikely to be found in large numbers, but they can help fill niche roles.  Choice picks: maybe minotaurs or umber hulks?

Don't forget Feral [practically anything]. Stupid template is too nice for its own good...