T_G's Optimization Series: Psi-Rogue (moar liek psi-ops, amrite?)
Again, no editing on my part.
[spoiler]
Tleilaxu_Ghola
04-17-06, 09:23 PM
Purpose: Mucknuggle's thread (
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=622533) on psychic rogue otpimization piqued my interest in the idea of a psi-rogue. I believe there are better choices than the psychic rogue from the mind's eye archive. Similar to my last optimization series (psi-gish (
http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=593654) and dex-warrior (
http://boards1.wizards.com/editpost.php?do=editpost&p=8584413)), I will try to address some theory and typical optimization constraints for this concept.
Optimization Constraints
These constraints define the role we want to fill.
Trap-finding
High number of skills, but preferably in the following areas:
Search
Hide & Move Silently
Disable Device
Damage Capability (with at least 15 BAB by 20th level)
Defensive Capability (can take a hit, or hard to hit)
Optimized on a 1-20 level scale.
Races: Human, Illumian, or Azurin. Pure and simple, the best race for this optimization excersize will be one with a human subtype. The main reason: the Able Learner feat from races of destiny requires the human subtype to gain the feat.
Feats: (Laundry List of feats that will probably be important for this character)
Able Learner: Cross-class skills only cost 1 point. The maximum for cross-class skills still apply
Classes:
Psion will provide the manifestor levels here. The fact that it uses int-based manifesting synergizes nicely with one who would like more skill points.
Elocator: A PrC from the XPH which has 6+int skills, cleric base attack, and a really nice skill list.
Scout: A great way to start off this character: it has 8+int skills, a huge list (which includes disable device when you use the eratta). I find skirmish to be more useful than sneak attack for this build. Also has the trapfinding ability. Also has d8 hit-dice, which is better than the rogue's.
Ranger: Another great class, only 6+int skills and no trap finding, but has 2 good saves and fighter base attack (and free feats!).
Slayer: 9/10 ML progression, fighter BAB, 4+int skills, and awesome class abilities. A great "filler" PrC.
Shadowmind (CAdv): Cleric BAB, 4+int skills with an awesome skill list, 2 good saves, 7/10 ML progression, grants sneak attack dice. Very easy entrance (possible to enter at 4th level!)
Build:
Race: Human
1. Scout: (Able Learner), Point Blank Shot, trapfinding-----------BAB: 0, ML: 0
2. Ranger: (Track)------------------------------------------------BAB: 1, ML: 0
3. Seer: (Overchannel), Precise Shot------------------------------BAB: 1, ML: 1
4. Seer: ---------------------------------------------------------BAB: 2, ML: 2
5. Seer-----------------------------------------------------------BAB: 2, ML: 3
6. Seer: Practiced Manifestor-------------------------------------BAB: 3, ML: 4
7. Shadowmind: ---------------------------------------------------BAB: 3, ML: 5
8. Shadowmind ----------------------------------------------------BAB: 4, ML: 5
9. Shadowmind: Rapid Shot-----------------------------------------BAB: 5, ML: 6
10. Shadowmind ---------------------------------------------------BAB: 6, ML: 7
11. Slayer -------------------------------------------------------BAB: 7, ML: 7
12. Slayer: EK (Perfect Archery) ---------------------------------BAB: 8, ML: 8
13. Slayer -------------------------------------------------------BAB: 9, ML: 9
14. Slayer -------------------------------------------------------BAB: 10, ML: 10
15. Slayer: Craft Dorje ------------------------------------------BAB: 11, ML: 11
16. Slayer -------------------------------------------------------BAB: 12, ML: 12
17. Slayer -------------------------------------------------------BAB: 13, ML: 13
18. Slayer: Dorje Mastery-----------------------------------------BAB: 14, ML: 14
19. Slayer -------------------------------------------------------BAB: 15, ML: 15
20. Slayer -------------------------------------------------------BAB: 16, ML: 16
SOURCES: Races of Destiny, Complete Psionics, Complete Adventurer, Expanded Psionic Handbook, Player's Handbook.
Notable Abilities:
Manifestor level 16, Base Attack 16. Effective manifestor level 20 (for purposes of augmentations, power penetration, etc.
124+(intx20) skills, cross-class skills only cost 1 rank, enormous list (everything on scout, ranger, psion, and shadowmind).
Trapfinding (search and disable device are on the list since 1st level)
Capable of non-magical/psionic ranged damage.
Access to remote viewing and other spying powers
Crafts his own dorjes, which he is able to use at increased effect due to dorje mastery. The dorjes can be used to for offensive powers or buffs. It's up to you, either way they'll be effective.
A WORK IN PROGRESS...
I'm still designing a optimal power-list, looking for a better damage technique, more skills, etc, etc.
Any help or suggestions are appreciated. I would like to stay away from psychic rogue, however, as not all DMs allow access to mind's eye (myself included). I also tend to avoid setting specific stuff, so as to generalize the utility of this build.
GavinMagius
04-17-06, 10:26 PM
When you say you want to stay away from psi-rouge, what do you mean by that? ie. The Lurk?
PhoenixInferno
04-17-06, 10:39 PM
When you say you want to stay away from psi-rouge, what do you mean by that? ie. The Lurk?
He means the Psionic Rogue (
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b).
FYI, you should use [ code] tags to make tables, or use Courier New as your font - makes aligning the tables easier. Gotta love the fixed width font.
Tleilaxu_Ghola
04-17-06, 10:51 PM
He means the Psionic Rogue (
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b).
FYI, you should use [ code] tags to make tables, or use Courier New as your font - makes aligning the tables easier. Gotta love the fixed width font.
<EDIT> Now it's readable. Comments on the build itself?
PhoenixInferno
04-17-06, 11:14 PM
You've only really provided a melee Psi-Rogue option - what about utility types? You could also mention Sanctified Mind as a good melee option.
Tleilaxu_Ghola
04-17-06, 11:26 PM
You've only really provided a melee Psi-Rogue option - what about utility types? You could also mention Sanctified Mind as a good melee option.
Hmm... actually a ranged rogue might be a better option, what with all the new powers that apply to arrows (living arrow, arrow mind, and perfect archery).
I don't know. I just threw out my first inclination of what I thought to be the best build given the constraints. Do you have any ideas PhoenixInferno? Obviously the build is going for utility, but I also want to squeeze some combat ability in there as well. It's a tall order, but I think it can be done reasonably.
Sanctified Mind is good, but doesn't have very good skills (2+int I believe). The premise of this build is to make a skillful character that uses psionics and fills the void of a rogue. Sneak attack isn't NEEDED ever, it's just a perk of being a rogue. Skills and trapfinding, however, are NEEDED, so they must be included in the build.
PhoenixInferno
04-17-06, 11:32 PM
Elocator? I'm not really into Psionics so I can't say much more than what I've already said.
Mucknuggle
04-17-06, 11:33 PM
You've only really provided a melee Psi-Rogue option - what about utility types?
Psychic Rogue 20 is great for that.
GavinMagius
04-17-06, 11:34 PM
I am working on a Rogue build which is Rogue 12/Lurk 8
The lurk has the ability to remove the dex bonus from its target at its own leasure, thus giving him the SA
Just a thought
Mucknuggle
04-17-06, 11:44 PM
Tleilaxu, I would prefer a build that uses Elocator. It has more skill points than the Shadowmind. Also, if you want to focus more on utility, all you have to do is trade Slayer levels for Elocator. Then just switch up the method of attacking to be Spring Attack with Deep Impact. Be a Kineticist so that you have early access to Control Body and use that on yourself to allow you to spring attack and regain psionic focus in the same round (thanks to Disposable Hero for that tip).
Tleilaxu_Ghola
04-17-06, 11:47 PM
Hmm... perhaps I'm too hung up on getting Base attack, Manifestor levels, and skill points. I mean what more could one possibly want?
Anyways, PhoenixInferno: Elocator can be found in the SRD here (
http://d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/elocater.htm). It's a pretty good class, but I couldn't fit it in easily with the high reqs that it has. (Requires spring attack)
GavinMagius: Care to expand upon that? Deceptive Strike is the Lurk augment you're undoubtedly referring to. The earliest one can get that is by 6th level (with the lurk master feat). I'd take more levels of Lurk than rogue so that you get more uses of your lurk augments per day. Perhaps mixing that with monk and stunning fist would be interesting, no?
PhoenixInferno
04-17-06, 11:52 PM
Hey! I know what Elocator IS, I'm just not a big Psionics user. You don't hang around the boards as much as I do and not know where 90% of the material is from...
I can kinda see a Scout/Kineticist/Sanctified Mind/Elocator as a Psionic Shadowbane Inquisitor. Not as much manifesting, but Elocator makes you more skill heavy.
Mucknuggle
04-17-06, 11:53 PM
Hmm... perhaps I'm too hung up on getting Base attack, Manifestor levels, and skill points. I mean what more could one possibly want?
Psychic Rogue 2/ Psion (Kineticist) 2/ Human Paragon 3/ Elocator 4/ Slayer 9
BAB +16, ML 15 (Psion). Feel free to switch the psy rogue levels for Scout 1/Ranger 1 if you eant. And yes, I know that Human Paragon doesn't grant manifester levels by the RAW - but it's obviously intended as a jack of all trades, so house ruling that it can advance casting or manifesting shouldn't be a problem.
Where is Sanctified Mind from?
Tleilaxu_Ghola
04-18-06, 12:14 AM
Psychic Rogue 2/ Psion (Kineticist) 2/ Human Paragon 3/ Elocator 4/ Slayer 9
BAB +16, ML 15 (Psion). Feel free to switch the psy rogue levels for Scout 1/Ranger 1 if you eant. And yes, I know that Human Paragon doesn't grant manifester levels by the RAW - but it's obviously intended as a jack of all trades, so house ruling that it can advance casting or manifesting shouldn't be a problem.
Where is Sanctified Mind from?
The people I game with are pretty terrified of "making up your own" stuff. They're fine with house-ruled nerfs (which are often necessary), on the other hand. So, I try to avoid stuff that isn't "strictly RAW" as best as I can, as others might be under the same predicament.
Anyhoots, Sanctified Mind is from Lords of Madness. It's a 6 level PrC that grants fighter BAB, and 5/6 ML progression AND 5/6 divine caster level progression. It's pretty darn sexy... but I've never been able to conjure up a good use for the divine end of things. Partly because I hate divine magic...
What do you think are the "essential" skills for a rogue. I listed some above, but did I miss any? I'd like to minimize the number of skill points needed so as to give us some breathing room for other things that we want to cram in.
Mucknuggle
04-18-06, 12:20 AM
This kind of thing doesn't have enough points to be a dungeon delver and a smooth talker, so for this builds I would attempt to max the following: Search, Spot, Listen, Disable Device, Open Lock, Hide, Move Silently, Concentration, Use Psionic (Magic) Device. If more points are available, Tumble and Sleight of Hand are neat. I don't know much of psionic powers yet, but you can probably eliminate Hide with some sort of invisibility power. Does the Psion have anything to replace Open Lock?
PhoenixInferno
04-18-06, 12:20 AM
Anyhoots, Sanctified Mind is from Lords of Madness. It's a 6 level PrC that grants fighter BAB, and 5/6 ML progression AND 5/6 divine caster level progression. It's pretty darn sexy... but I've never been able to conjure up a good use for the divine end of things. Partly because I hate divine magic...Its mix & match 5/6 ML/divine CL, but that's the gist of it.
UPD/UMD! How can you forget those?
Tleilaxu_Ghola
04-18-06, 12:24 AM
Hmmm... We could get UPD by changing seer to shaper. UMD is touger though, I'd need to use rogue instead of scout. That's doable, but is it worth it...mmm....
How about the new dual dorje wielding feats from CPsi (pretty much the same as dual wand wielding)?
The nice thing about dorjes is they can hold up to 9th level powers! Imagine busting off a greater metamorphosis and a microcosm in the same round. *snap*
Mucknuggle
04-18-06, 12:26 AM
Leave the wands to the artificers. That's all I have to say about that.
Why did you choose Seer?
Tleilaxu_Ghola
04-18-06, 12:31 AM
This kind of thing doesn't have enough points to be a dungeon delver and a smooth talker, so for this builds I would attempt to max the following: Search, Spot, Listen, Disable Device, Open Lock, Hide, Move Silently, Concentration, Use Psionic (Magic) Device. If more points are available, Tumble and Sleight of Hand are neat. I don't know much of psionic powers yet, but you can probably eliminate Hide with some sort of invisibility power. Does the Psion have anything to replace Open Lock?
There is a psionic knock (2nd level). That would probably do the trick. Sleight of hand... I dunno. Tumble is really only critical if you need to flank for sneak attack. Search, spot, listen, disable device, concentration, Hide, Move Silently, and UPD are probably the essential ones. That's 9 skills! We'd need to have a +4 int bonus for the majority of the levels to keep everything maxed out. (Not impossible, but some levels only get 3+int skills (4 of them in fact).
Hmm ideas there? Elocator is looking good again. Though the thought of another cleric base-attack class almost brings tears to my eyes...
Leave the wands to the artificers. That's all I have to say about that.
Why did you choose Seer?
Probably wise advice on the wands. Anyways, I chose seer to help this character fill the "scouting" role that a rogue often plays. With divinations and scrying powers up his sleeve, this guy shouldn't have to sneak around so much as manifest a power.
Eyeless Blond
04-18-06, 01:04 AM
Elocator? I'm not really into Psionics so I can't say much more than what I've already said.
Something like Scout6/X*1/warmind1/elocator10/...
* X being some class that gets Knowledge(psionics) as a class skill. Psywarrior would probably work best of the core psi classes.
The sixth level of Scout is good for Flawless Stride, which lets you charge over uneven terrain, as well as the save bonuses.
This is just the beginning of a build, of course.
Gryftir
04-18-06, 01:18 AM
Tumble is neccesary if you are going for melee sneak attack when facing multiple opponents as well.
Control Sound might work instead of move silently.
Tenken
04-18-06, 09:17 AM
Anyhoots, Sanctified Mind is from Lords of Madness. It's a 6 level PrC that grants fighter BAB, and 5/6 ML progression AND 5/6 divine caster level progression. It's pretty darn sexy... but I've never been able to conjure up a good use for the divine end of things. Partly because I hate divine magic...
It actually advances either your manifester level OR your divine caster level, not both. I've yet to see a class that advances psionic and divine classes
_J_
04-18-06, 10:07 AM
I've yet to see a class that advances psionic and divine classes
Take a look at the Psychic theurge (
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040925b) and see one
Stratovarius
04-18-06, 10:19 AM
The Psychic Theurge in the Mind's Eye does that, but I don't know of any others off the top of my head.
xanadu
04-18-06, 12:09 PM
I think the posted build ends of being a good character but is a bit rough in the low to mid levels: BAB 3 at level seven with leap attack makes for an odd combination.
This project wont be easy because not a lot of Psi PRCs are skill point friendly and the Elocator has some hefty entry requirements. At first thought, it is probably easier to focus on making a combat oriented psi-rogue or a skill oriented combat rogue - combining them may be too difficult if you have to start at level 3 and ensure this guy survives.
Tleilaxu_Ghola
04-18-06, 12:51 PM
I think the posted build ends of being a good character but is a bit rough in the low to mid levels: BAB 3 at level seven with leap attack makes for an odd combination.
This project wont be easy because not a lot of Psi PRCs are skill point friendly and the Elocator has some hefty entry requirements. At first thought, it is probably easier to focus on making a combat oriented psi-rogue or a skill oriented combat rogue - combining them may be too difficult if you have to start at level 3 and ensure this guy survives.
I agree with your assessment. I'm considering changing the combat focus to archery, so as to improve his chance for survival at low levels. This way he could focus on dexterity without needing to get weapon finesse and at the same time it would increase both his AC and initiative modifier.
Another option, *gasp*, would be to change the base manifesting class to Ardent (from Cpsi). Ardent has cleric base attack and the same number of pp as a psion (fewer powers known, however). The trick still is getting trapfinding. If I can somehow loosen that requirement, then this would be a lot easier.
PhoenixInferno
04-18-06, 12:56 PM
Thief Gloves?
Tleilaxu_Ghola
04-18-06, 04:41 PM
Thief gloves would be available at 6th level (at the earliest) because they need to be bound to the hand chakra. It would require me to expend two feats (or take class levels in an incarnum class). Alternatively, I could rely on the open chakra power, but that's a 4th level power and I don't get 4th level powers until 10th level.
This is a rather difficult optimization excersize to say the least.
The best substitute (for low levels) that I have is a wand of find traps (2nd level cleric; 4500 gp). That's rather expensive for someone in the 1-6 level range (given it's relatively low combat value).
Mucknuggle
04-18-06, 05:07 PM
I don't think that you need to worry about the BAB too much for the early levels. You've got a manifester level of 5 at level 7, which can allow you to do some pretty decent damage with Energy Ray and probably some other powers. You really don't have the HP to be meleeing at that point in the build anyway...
Tleilaxu_Ghola
04-18-06, 05:43 PM
I don't think that you need to worry about the BAB too much for the early levels. You've got a manifester level of 5 at level 7, which can allow you to do some pretty decent damage with Energy Ray and probably some other powers. You really don't have the HP to be meleeing at that point in the build anyway...
True enough. I'm now really considering dropping the leap attack, moving towards an archery tree. We can ameliorate the low base attack through the use of precognition offensive (or prescience... I can never remember which one is which). Perhaps practiced manifestor would be more beneficial in the low levels? Weapon focus shortbow will definately help out at first level.
So basically the technique for survival at low levels will be:
1. Buff up and shoot arrows
2. If enemy has too high of AC use touch attack powers to damage him.
The first level powers should definately be: energy ray, prescience offensive, precognition defensive. The next level (level 4) one should grab vigor and a utility power of choice.
Now for high levels? How should we get reasonable damage? No more ubercharging... and given the investment in archery at low levels we'll likely be forced to continue that track. A composite bow will help a bit, as will augmented prescience offensive (it can give up to +8 insight to damage for 20 minutes when fully augmented at 20th level). I think we need to be able to get the damage above 100 (assuming all hits) by 20th level. For all intensive purposes (until 20th level) we're stuck with 3 attacks (at high level). The speed enhancement will provide another attack, but is pretty expensive. It may be worth-while to invest a feat in "metaphysical weapon." 17 pp will grant a +5 bonus and with overchannel would be available as early as 15th level. If augmented with 4 points the duration increases to hours per level (effectively all day at high levels).
So I plan to add the following:
1. Point Blank Shot, (Able Learner)
2. (track)
3. (Practiced Manifestor), Rapid Shot
6. EK (Metaphysical Weapon)
9. EK (Perfect Archery)
12. Overchannel
15. Precise Shot
18.
Basically he's going to have to burn through power-points like crazy at low levels to be competant in combat. At higher levels he gets a little more breathing room.
But at 6th level he could have a total ranged attack bonus of (on his 1 attack): (3 BAB + 2 insight +2 enhancement + dex) = 7 + dex, which isn't terrible, but not great. The magical bonuses would come from buffs which last 6 minutes.
At high levels he should tote around a +1 Collision bow of speed. (and use metaphysical weapon to add more enhancement bonus on to it). This'll give him a damage per arrow at 20th level of 6x(1d8 + 5 unnamed + 5 enhancement + STR)= 105 (assuming 16 strength and all hits).
Mucknuggle
04-20-06, 10:44 AM
I just noticed that the Daggerspell Mage has a psionic option. It has 6 skills per level, medium BAB and 9/10 manifester progression. It's, IMO, a really good choice for this kind of character.
Psychic Rogue 1 (or Scout, Rogue, etc...)/ Psion 5/ Daggerspell Mage 6/ Slayer 8
ML: 17
BAB: 15
While the BAB is pretty good, this guy should definitely be played more like a caster. Take Able Learner at level 1 and try to get through those Psion levels without losing too many skills. Focus on Disable Device, Concentration, Hide, Move Silently and Search. Open Locks is not a priority since you should be taking Knock as a second level power.
Alternatively, if you really want a BAB of +16, do DM 4/ Slayer 10 - though you'll miss out on those much needed skill points. DM 4/ Slayer 9 gets you the awesome level 9 ability though.
Tleilaxu_Ghola
04-20-06, 12:21 PM
Wow I never noticed that bit of flavor text in the "adaptation section." The only trouble I see in arcane infusion. It would need to be re-worded to "As a swift action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity you may infuse your dagger with a single power point that has the effect of charging it with an extra 1d6 points of a specific energy type (fire, colde, or electricity). The effect lass 1 round. Augmentation: for every two additional power points beyond the first that you invest in your dagger the energy imbued lasts an additional round. Maximum augmentation: 17 pp. If the dagger is thrown the energy applies to the attack, but the effect immediately ends."
Something like that. The augmentation shown would be the equivalent to an additional spell slot. The maximum ensures that there is absolutely no difference between arcane and psionics.
Other than that, just replace spells with powers and casting with manifesting.
Great find!
Mucknuggle
04-20-06, 01:52 PM
I only found it because of Disposable_Hero's list of psionic material outside of the XPH. Thanks go to him. So, with the build that I posted, what feats would you take and what powers? I actually think that taking Erudite instead of Psion may be a bit better, or maybe that's just because I like Erudite more because the picture of the erudite in Dragon is so badass looking.
I was thinking of something like this for the initial levels:
1 - Able Learner, Track (Human)
2 - Psicrystal Affinity (Psion)
3 - Weapon Focus (Dagger)
6 - Two Weapon Fighting, Practiced Manifester (Psion)
9 - Psionic Meditation
Being an Erudite frees up a feat because you get Psicrystal Affinity for free.
Tleilaxu_Ghola
04-20-06, 07:24 PM
I only found it because of Disposable_Hero's list of psionic material outside of the XPH. Thanks go to him. So, with the build that I posted, what feats would you take and what powers? I actually think that taking Erudite instead of Psion may be a bit better, or maybe that's just because I like Erudite more because the picture of the erudite in Dragon is so badass looking.
I was thinking of something like this for the initial levels:
1 - Able Learner, Track (Human)
2 - Psicrystal Affinity (Psion)
3 - Weapon Focus (Dagger)
6 - Two Weapon Fighting, Practiced Manifester (Psion)
9 - Psionic Meditation
Being an Erudite frees up a feat because you get Psicrystal Affinity for free.
I dunno much about the erudite... I know there's a version of it in CPsi, but I haven't looked at it too much. But I will say this: a psion gets a free bonus feat (psionic or metapsionic) at first level as well, so I see little advantage in being an erudite.
I like the feat progression you have listed, but I'm not sure why you took psionic meditation at 9th level. Do you plan on blowing your psionic focus a lot? Otherwise, it's not worth it. I'd suggest taking expanded knowledge for some power that you just gotta have at that point.
Tleilaxu_Ghola
04-22-06, 12:08 AM
I've updated the build and changed the focus to ranged combat. I wanted to use the dual dorje tree, but I just don't see two-weapon fighting working out with this character at low levels. Perhaps a psychic reformation would be in order, if this build were played 1-20.
Tleilaxu_Ghola
04-22-06, 06:35 AM
Alright, time to re-think the whole combat end of things on this build. It's been bugging me for days and I still haven't come up with a perfectly satisfactory solution.
Here's what I got so far: Screw physical combat completely. Kill 'em with mind-bullets. No one ever said how we had to deal the damage, so long as we can do it.
This puts a precedence on gaining manifester levels. We'll introduce a new prestige class into the mix: Anarchic Initiate. Full ML progression, cleric BAB, grants wild surge ability and has other nice perks. This has the wonderful effect of opening up a lot more feats. Base attack and saves never hurt anyone though, so those should still be sought after.
A couple feats that I'm looking into:
1. Priveledge Energy: You gain +1 damage per die when you use a power of that energy type. Ummm... AWESOME. We want damage, and this is a great way to get more of it.
2. Split Ray: with a metapsionic cost of only 2 pp this feat is a power house for damage. Two disintegrates in a round at 11th level (if overchannel is used)? Sign me up scotty.
Benefits:
1. Removes the necessity for Base attack bonus, though more BAB is still better
2. Arguably increases the damage output capability of this build
3. Reduces MAD, as the character will now only need to focus on Int, Dex, and Con.
Cons:
1. Almost completely worthless against enemies in an AMF or those with prohibative SR/PR
2. No one likes losing base attack bonus... well not me at least
3. Loss of manifester levels is extremely painful now; dips and PrCs that do not advance ML will hurt the functionality of this build.
Khazra Reborn
04-22-06, 07:36 AM
Something to consider, how important are skill points/level? I only say this because the 2skills/level of the sanctified mind was mentioned. When int is your primary stat, surely this is much less of an issue?
_J_
04-22-06, 07:40 AM
Sactified mind acrually has 4 + int skill points per level
Tleilaxu_Ghola
04-22-06, 03:03 PM
Something to consider, how important are skill points/level? I only say this because the 2skills/level of the sanctified mind was mentioned. When int is your primary stat, surely this is much less of an issue?
This is true but we want to max out the following skills to fill the "rogue" role:
Search, Disable Device, Hide, Move Silently, Spot, Listen, Concentration
It would also be nice to have:
UPD, UMD, Bluff, and Diplomacy
I had hoped that we could do away with the Hide and Move Silently by using Seer (so as to fill the role of a scout without actually being there and having to make stealth checks). Spot and Listen are still good to have. UMD I decided wasn't terribly necessary and neither is UPD if we go with a caster focus. So the short list is:
Search, Disable Device, Spot, Listen, Bluff, Concentration
That's 6 skills, which is doable even if you only have a +3 int modifier (and are human). So I don't think the number of skill points is so crucial, but more never hurt anyone. I'd like to be able to add UPD, Hide and Move Silently in there too. We could perhaps drop bluff. With 4+int skills per level (from sanctified mind, anarchic initiate, or slayer) this is definately possible. It'd be tight for the low levels (the 4 levels of Seer with 2 + int skills puts a damper on things). Also, anarchic initiate has some pretty high skill reqs (two skills need to be at 8). Like I said a human psi-rogue with 16 int gets 6 skills per level, so we'd have to shorten the list down to 4 skills during that time.
Suffice it to say, this guy is not the complete skill monkey that a rogue is until later. However, we don't NEED all the skills that a rogue uses (like tumble). Just so long as we get the skills that fill the essential role.
johnnype
09-01-06, 01:56 PM
Sorry to bring this thread back up but I'm curious to see if anyone else has any thoughts on this and/or if there are any changes to be made now that a few months have passes and we have a couple of interesting new books (PHB II and Book of Nine Swords) to work with.
I love the idea of a psionic-rogue and there are endless combinations to achieve that. Although the focus of this thread has shifted a bit to a ranged-combat PC I'd like to come up with a stealthy two-weapon user (ideally Kukri). One last thing, I love the Elocater and the Scout. Anyone?
AlienFromBeyond
09-01-06, 02:58 PM
I dunno much about the erudite... I know there's a version of it in CPsi, but I haven't looked at it too much. But I will say this: a psion gets a free bonus feat (psionic or metapsionic) at first level as well, so I see little advantage in being an erudite.
The Psicrystal Affinity feat they get doesn't replace the bonus feat at 1st level, it's in addition to it.
Tleilaxu_Ghola
09-01-06, 08:53 PM
Sorry to bring this thread back up but I'm curious to see if anyone else has any thoughts on this and/or if there are any changes to be made now that a few months have passes and we have a couple of interesting new books (PHB II and Book of Nine Swords) to work with.
I love the idea of a psionic-rogue and there are endless combinations to achieve that. Although the focus of this thread has shifted a bit to a ranged-combat PC I'd like to come up with a stealthy two-weapon user (ideally Kukri). One last thing, I love the Elocater and the Scout. Anyone?
You got me man. ToB + Psionics = not worky so good. Arcane + ToB = JP mage, Divine + ToB = Ruby Vindicator.
Best a psi-rogue can do is dip some ToB classes (at the cost of ML or feats) for some cool stuff. Assassin stance would be nice (+2d6 Sneak Attack). Shadow Blade is teh uber for dex builds (works well with assassin stance or island of blades).
ToB, unlike MoI, doesn't give a whole lot of skillz support though, and that's its main downfall. Well the base classes have a lot of skills (6+int for swordsage is pretty nice) & the martial study feats can make certain skills always class skills. But to my knowledge no maneuvers bump skills except jump or tumble.
PHB 2 brought some stuff in, but not a lot of it was skills-oriented. Like ToB, there's a lot of good combat feats. Too bad feats are not something that Psi-Rogues have an abundance of.
The Psicrystal Affinity feat they get doesn't replace the bonus feat at 1st level, it's in addition to it.
I see that now. That's a pretty good incentive actually. Erudite's quick power learning technique is quite attractive for a campaign filled with other psions. I would certainly consider using the class.
Anyone had any luck with Lurks in a real campaign? I'm still not seeing that class as very potent at all.
RadicalTaoist
09-01-06, 11:10 PM
You got me man. ToB + Psionics = not worky so good.
A-HEM? A fellow named Lester would like to disagree with you.
Seriously, though, the psi-gish usually doesn't have enough feats to cut into some hot martial adept action. I'm hoping that the Mind's Eye has the psionic dual-classing equivalent of the Jade Phoenix Mage.
Tleilaxu_Ghola
09-01-06, 11:16 PM
A-HEM? A fellow named Lester would like to disagree with you.
Seriously, though, the psi-gish usually doesn't have enough feats to cut into some hot martial adept action. I'm hoping that the Mind's Eye has the psionic dual-classing equivalent of the Jade Phoenix Mage.
Lester is more what I was describing -- psionic with a hint of ToB. That's about the best you can do.
With arcane / divine on the otherhand you can get full integration. 8th level spells & 8th level maneuvers is totally possible.
RadicalTaoist
09-02-06, 10:34 PM
Lester is more what I was describing -- psionic with a hint of ToB. That's about the best you can do.
With arcane / divine on the otherhand you can get full integration. 8th level spells & 8th level maneuvers is totally possible.
I see what you mean by integration.
A psionic equivalent of the Jade Phoenix Mage would be nice. A meldshaper equivalent of the Jade Phoenix Mage would kick unlimited ass.
Tleilaxu_Ghola
09-02-06, 10:53 PM
I see what you mean by integration.
A psionic equivalent of the Jade Phoenix Mage would be nice. A meldshaper equivalent of the Jade Phoenix Mage would kick unlimited ass.
Aye, it would. Incarnum + ToB would be incredibly fun to play, but alas it was not meant to be.
Too bad meldshaper levels don't increase like IL does (1/2 for non-meldshaping classes). The IL system totally rocks for multiclassing.
Blade2718
09-03-06, 01:02 AM
Very minor point, but if you revisit the archer again, get splitting on your bow and you've basically doubled your damage output.
[/spoiler]