Author Topic: Dwarven Gish?  (Read 4069 times)

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Sommunist

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Dwarven Gish?
« on: August 31, 2009, 07:58:04 PM »
Was reading through the forum, looking for help.  Couldn't find what I was after, and after registering the Search didn't help too much either.

Anyhow, I'm looking for some advice on a Gish build.
-Character MUST be a dwarf.  This is not open for debate.  Dwarf subraces might be acceptable, if the LA is low.
-Focusing on fire and fire-themed spells.  Not necessarily all fire, but things like Ice Axe don't fit.  Brilliant Aura would, as an example, because I can say "My axe suddenly looks like it's made of fire" and the DM would allow it.
-Using Pathfinder, though it only really applies for racial statistics and base classes.

Right now the build is looking something like this:
Dwarf Fighter 2 / Wizard 3 / Runesmith 1 / X til 20

This will get me full weapon and armor proficiency, 2 bonus feats, casting in heavy armor, and CL 18 by level 20 if I play my cards right.  BAB will be 3 by level 6 (4 with fractional rules), possibly going as high as 17 by level 20 (so I have that delicious 4th attack, again if I play my cards right).

There are 2 sticking points for me:
-I'm not sure if I want to leave Runesmith as a dip.  The level 3 and 5 abilities are really nice, but the BAB would kill me.
-I have no idea where to go after level 6.  I was thinking Spellsword, as Channel Spell is godly, but the casting is terrible and the Ignore ASF ability is redundant because of my runes.  Abjurant Champion is good, though some of the abilities are rather useless.  Eldritch Knight is boring but good, except for the first level.

Bottom line is: I'd REALLY love to have Channel Spell, but unless I can get that from somewhere other than Spellsword it's not likely.

Books allowed are: Core, all Completes, all Races Of, and Eberron.  It's fair to assume that Psionics and Tome of Magic are allowed, too, but I'd like to stay away from alternate casting systems for RP reasons.  Dragon Magazine MIGHT be allowed.  Forgotten Realms and Tome of 9 Swords are right out.

PhaedrusXY

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Re: Dwarven Gish?
« Reply #1 on: August 31, 2009, 08:01:42 PM »
The Duskblade sounds right up your alley.
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ninjarabbit

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Re: Dwarven Gish?
« Reply #2 on: August 31, 2009, 08:09:21 PM »
fighter1/wizard4/runemsmith2/spellsword1/abjurantchampion5/wizard2/eldritchknight5

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Re: Dwarven Gish?
« Reply #3 on: August 31, 2009, 08:13:48 PM »
The Duskblade sounds right up your alley.

Looking at the class, it does have some good things going for it.  There are some problems though:
-It has it's own casting system instead of advancing wizard casting like a PRC would.
-Armored Mage is redundant, and not as good as Runesmith.
-Arcane Channeling only works with touch spells, and as such can't duplicate Channel Spell for sheer power (channeled Antimagic Field, for one).  Additionally, the Smiting Spell metamagic feat can duplicate this ability rather nicely.

As a one-class Gish-in-a-can, you could do a lot worse.  It doesn't work here, though.

fighter1/wizard4/runemsmith2/spellsword1/abjurantchampion5/wizard2/eldritchknight5
Runesmith 2 ability is less than useless for this build.  Spellsword 1 is similarly useless.  Abjurant Champion is nice, I admit.  More wizard kills my BAB.  Eldritch Knight is fine.

KellKheraptis

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Re: Dwarven Gish?
« Reply #4 on: August 31, 2009, 08:26:22 PM »
By my reading of that one, it's getting BAB 17/CL 18, a whole ton of Ignoring ASF, and IIRC Con as spellcasting stat?  That is about the best I could do with a dwarven gish o.o
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Re: Dwarven Gish?
« Reply #5 on: August 31, 2009, 08:33:16 PM »
...and IIRC Con as spellcasting stat?

Con only determines how many shared runes I can make per day, an ability that I wouldn't even get with my original build.  The rest is true, though, and it's not a bad build if I do say so myself.  I just really, REALLY like channel spell in conjunction with a greataxe.

Also, on the subject of greataxes, I have a question: Would wearing a Shield Gauntlet (Races of Stone 158) allow you to use a 2-handed weapon?  RAW you can't wield a weapon with it, but I'm assuming that refers to TWF, not 2-handers.

sir_argenon

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Re: Dwarven Gish?
« Reply #6 on: August 31, 2009, 08:41:33 PM »
phaedrus is telling you to use duskblade, instead of wizard/runesmith etc because is one of the best full casting/full bab classes.  and you said you wanted to use channelling which DB gives you. you probably want to stick around in DB til 13th so you can channel full attacks.

possibly: duskblade 13/abj champ 5/duskblade 2.


KellKheraptis

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Re: Dwarven Gish?
« Reply #7 on: August 31, 2009, 08:45:03 PM »
Also if you're not opposed to ToB, there's always the King of Combustion build on 339.  It gets rediculous damage with channel-ed combusts, and has some other tricks to boot.  Not to mention being a 17th level Wizard :)
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Sommunist

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Re: Dwarven Gish?
« Reply #8 on: August 31, 2009, 08:50:55 PM »
phaedrus is telling you to use duskblade, instead of wizard/runesmith etc because is one of the best full casting/full bab classes.  and you said you wanted to use channelling which DB gives you. you probably want to stick around in DB til 13th so you can channel full attacks.

possibly: duskblade 13/abj champ 5/duskblade 2.

Again, their channeling ability is touch spells ONLY, which hinders it quite a bit.  Plus, their armored mage ability is not nearly as good as Runesmith (casting in medium armor/heavy shield vs. Still Spell, for free, forever), and their spell list is absolutely abysmal.

Also if you're not opposed to ToB, there's always the King of Combustion build on 339.  It gets rediculous damage with channel-ed combusts, and has some other tricks to boot.  Not to mention being a 17th level Wizard :)
As much as I hate to say it, most of the DMs I play with have banned everything from Tome of Battle forever.  They seem dead set on taking all the fun out of the game (supported by switching to pathfinder, which nerfs casters really hard as well).

Edit: I was going to look up the Combustion build, but I can't seem to find it.  Search was no help either.  Care to link me?
« Last Edit: August 31, 2009, 08:52:41 PM by Sommunist »

KellKheraptis

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Re: Dwarven Gish?
« Reply #9 on: August 31, 2009, 09:04:21 PM »
I don't have it on this PC :(  "King of Combustion" in the ToB build guides thread should have it, and if you type the quotes it should string search specifically for that.  It's *tests memory* Warblade 1/Wizard 6/JPM 1/Ruathar 3/JPM +9

Personally, if the DM is cool with fractional BAB, I'd replace the 6th level of Wizard with Mindbender and snag Mindsight, but that's a personal preference.
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ninjarabbit

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Re: Dwarven Gish?
« Reply #10 on: August 31, 2009, 09:17:18 PM »
Spellsword still gives you d8 hit die, +2 to fort and will saves, and +1 BAB and CL, hardly useless for a gish even if you don't need the -10% ASF

Sommunist

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Re: Dwarven Gish?
« Reply #11 on: August 31, 2009, 09:21:05 PM »
I don't have it on this PC :(  "King of Combustion" in the ToB build guides thread should have it, and if you type the quotes it should string search specifically for that.  It's *tests memory* Warblade 1/Wizard 6/JPM 1/Ruathar 3/JPM +9

Personally, if the DM is cool with fractional BAB, I'd replace the 6th level of Wizard with Mindbender and snag Mindsight, but that's a personal preference.

Still can't find that build.  I'll look harder later, as it really doesn't help me now.

Mindbender for Mindsight is a sound mechanical choice, but doesn't really fit the character.  This guy isn't that subtle.

Spellsword still gives you d8 hit die, +2 to fort and will saves, and +1 BAB and CL, hardly useless for a gish even if you don't need the -10% ASF
IIRC Abjurant Champion does that and more.

Also, for my own amusement, I went looking through PHB2 for spells Duskblades can use with their Arcane Chanelling ability.  On their spell list, there are a grand total of 2 spells that qualify: Dimension Hop and Dispelling Touch.  Now, nothing says you can't use that ability with other class' spells, but you'd be losing 3 useful caster levels, or 13 caster levels if you wanted the full attack version.  Terrible.

KellKheraptis

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Re: Dwarven Gish?
« Reply #12 on: August 31, 2009, 09:37:28 PM »
Well, Mindsight doesn't have to be subtle...more like he ALWAYS knows what's around him, which is rather dwarven-like (nothing can hide from me in these caves...nothing).  How about :

Wizard 6/Spellsword 3/Dragonslayer 1/Abjurant Champion 5/XXX that adds up to at least +4 BAB and +3 CL

Will get you 4 iteratives, 9th level spells, and IIRC SS3 is when you get Channel Spell?  Also, fear immunity is spiffy :)
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ninjarabbit

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Re: Dwarven Gish?
« Reply #13 on: August 31, 2009, 10:07:39 PM »
Spellsword still gives you d8 hit die, +2 to fort and will saves, and +1 BAB and CL, hardly useless for a gish even if you don't need the -10% ASF
IIRC Abjurant Champion does that and more.


Too bad AC is only a 5 level PrC, you need something to fill those other levels.

Shadowhunter

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Re: Dwarven Gish?
« Reply #14 on: August 31, 2009, 10:23:07 PM »
I don't have it on this PC :(  "King of Combustion" in the ToB build guides thread should have it, and if you type the quotes it should string search specifically for that.  It's *tests memory* Warblade 1/Wizard 6/JPM 1/Ruathar 3/JPM +9

Personally, if the DM is cool with fractional BAB, I'd replace the 6th level of Wizard with Mindbender and snag Mindsight, but that's a personal preference.

Still can't find that build.  I'll look harder later, as it really doesn't help me now.

Mindbender for Mindsight is a sound mechanical choice, but doesn't really fit the character.  This guy isn't that subtle.

Spellsword still gives you d8 hit die, +2 to fort and will saves, and +1 BAB and CL, hardly useless for a gish even if you don't need the -10% ASF
IIRC Abjurant Champion does that and more.

Also, for my own amusement, I went looking through PHB2 for spells Duskblades can use with their Arcane Chanelling ability.  On their spell list, there are a grand total of 2 spells that qualify: Dimension Hop and Dispelling Touch.  Now, nothing says you can't use that ability with other class' spells, but you'd be losing 3 useful caster levels, or 13 caster levels if you wanted the full attack version.  Terrible.

1 level of Spellsword would still be worth it. There's nothing stopping you from taking 1 level in SS and 5 in AC, or am I missing something?

And Duskblades have more spells than those two to channel. The spell section only mention the Duskblade spells that aren't in the PHB.
Check out its spell list in its class description, there's Chill Touch, Shocking Grasp, Vampiric Touch, Blade of Blood etc.
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Sommunist

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Re: Dwarven Gish?
« Reply #15 on: August 31, 2009, 11:03:28 PM »
There's nothing stopping me from taking SS, but I'd rather not have redundant abilities, no matter how good the numbers for the class are.

And Duskblades have more spells than those two to channel. The spell section only mention the Duskblade spells that aren't in the PHB.
Check out its spell list in its class description, there's Chill Touch, Shocking Grasp, Vampiric Touch, Blade of Blood etc.

None of those spells are listed on the Duskblade spell list, PHB2 page 98, which lists ALL the spells duskblades can cast, EVER.

Edit: Looking at the section again, I can see where you made your mistake.  In the starting packages section, the characters are given spells they'd normally not have access to.  I'm guessing this, like the sample Abjurant Champion in complete mage, is a mistake on Wizards' part.

Edit x2: I'm an idiot, but I'm justified.  The full Duskblade spell list is printed on page 24, though this is never mentioned.  The class description only ever mentions the much smaller list printed on page 98.  My bad.
« Last Edit: August 31, 2009, 11:08:29 PM by Sommunist »

Akalsaris

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Re: Dwarven Gish?
« Reply #16 on: August 31, 2009, 11:29:58 PM »
Yeah, duskblade and beguiler spell lists were definitely put in a really awkward place.  Took me forever to find them :P

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Re: Dwarven Gish?
« Reply #17 on: September 01, 2009, 12:03:45 AM »
Actually, if you wanted a fire-themed caster / melee combatant who can wear armor and channel spells ... here's an unorthodox thought:

Cleric 4/Ordained Champion 3/...whatever (I don't think your source material includes it, but Knight of the Raven fits well)

If you want even more fire theme, you can be a heretic of the faith (assume you can use that), to grab the fire domain (assuming the DM doesn't just go with it).

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KellKheraptis

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Re: Dwarven Gish?
« Reply #18 on: September 01, 2009, 12:14:31 AM »
Also, since I'm seeing you as a blast-o-gish, one level in Sanctified One of Kord would do wonders for you.  Hell, if you go Swordsage base, you can make all those usually subpar Desert Wind maneuvers do divine damage, and for that matter, a warlock-styled JPM (change the two "strike" maneuvers to apply to SLA's instead of spells, and you're done) would be wicked, also facilitating passage into Hellfire Warlock if you feel like burning a feat (or level, depending on who you talk to) to heal ability damage, pun intended.

Warlock 5/Swordsage 2/JPM 10/Hellfire Warlock 3

Would net you one Dark invocation, 9d6+6d6 Eldritch Blast assuming Practiced Spellcaster taken, a couple nice stances, maneuvers galore, and you might even see if the DM is cool with Desert Wind maneuvers being able to use Hellfire as well.  And you've got all day endurance :)
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Re: Dwarven Gish?
« Reply #19 on: September 01, 2009, 12:23:12 AM »
*snip Divine options*
Very mechanically sound, but I specifically wanted this character to be arcane.  Thanks for the suggestion though.

*snip ToB options*
Unfortunately, I can tell you right now that ToB is banned.  It's always banned here =/

It's looking very much like I won't be able to get Channel Spell for this guy . . . maybe I can convince my DM to let Smiting Spell apply to ranged touch spells instead of just touch spells . . .