Author Topic: Welcome to the Aperture Science Enrichment Center  (Read 8124 times)

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Squirrelloid

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Re: Welcome to the Aperture Science Enrichment Center
« Reply #20 on: June 05, 2008, 10:56:45 PM »
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In regards to the idea of magical choice, how then do we resolve the spell's interactions with uncarried inanimate objects that it interacts with

Arcane Gate
Quote
You create a dimensional rift between two target squares. Any creature that enters one of the target squares can move to the other target square as if it were adjacent to that square. A creature cannot pass through the rift if that square is occupied by another creature.

Emphasis mine. An unattended object is not a creature, thus a non-magical unattended object would not go through the portal.

More emphasis added by me.  Its not "must" go through, its "can" go through - the creatures choice.  You cannot force the creature through regardless of how you place the portal, push it around, what have you.  Effectively, a creature entering the space can choose to go through the portal, not whatever agency puts him in that space.

Furthermore, note that it triggers on *entering* the space.  Thus, placing a portal under the creature doesn't even give the creature the _option_ of going through it, much less compel such movement.
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Cyrocloud

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Re: Welcome to the Aperture Science Enrichment Center
« Reply #21 on: June 05, 2008, 11:20:25 PM »
So if I place one gate underneath a realy huge ass boulder and the other above an enemy (or with a high knowledge check or something in a strategic place to cause a rockslide or something) would the boulder fall through the gate then.

Squirrelloid

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Re: Welcome to the Aperture Science Enrichment Center
« Reply #22 on: June 05, 2008, 11:21:35 PM »
So if I place one gate underneath a realy huge ass boulder and the other above an enemy (or with a high knowledge check or something in a strategic place to cause a rockslide or something) would the boulder fall through the gate then.

No

(1) Only creatures can pass through the gate

(2) Its starting in the same square, and therefore can't even trigger it if its a creature.
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Shigunaru

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Re: Welcome to the Aperture Science Enrichment Center
« Reply #23 on: June 06, 2008, 05:22:49 AM »
Quote
In regards to the idea of magical choice, how then do we resolve the spell's interactions with uncarried inanimate objects that it interacts with

Arcane Gate
Quote
You create a dimensional rift between two target squares. Any creature that enters one of the target squares can move to the other target square as if it were adjacent to that square. A creature cannot pass through the rift if that square is occupied by another creature.

Emphasis mine. An unattended object is not a creature, thus a non-magical unattended object would not go through the portal.

More emphasis added by me.  Its not "must" go through, its "can" go through - the creatures choice.  You cannot force the creature through regardless of how you place the portal, push it around, what have you.  Effectively, a creature entering the space can choose to go through the portal, not whatever agency puts him in that space.

Furthermore, note that it triggers on *entering* the space.  Thus, placing a portal under the creature doesn't even give the creature the _option_ of going through it, much less compel such movement.

This is what I were trying to say, but my english skills are just not as good as brislove's and Squirrelloid's. Good job :clap
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phelanarcetus

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Re: Welcome to the Aperture Science Enrichment Center
« Reply #24 on: June 06, 2008, 11:45:33 AM »
Arcane Gate also targets two unoccupied squares.  Therefore, you cannot put a portal directly under a creature, and you might be prevented by a DM from putting a portal underneath a large, heavy object.

I think we can safely get at least a full fall out of comboing this with forced movement, a slide or a push, but I don't think we can develop a falling loop.  Still, you can get a full 20 square fall for 10d10 damage on a successful forced movement power and a failed save (per the DMG, creatures get a save to end forced movement that would cause them damage), which is not a bad use at all.

Squirrelloid

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Re: Welcome to the Aperture Science Enrichment Center
« Reply #25 on: June 06, 2008, 12:53:48 PM »
Arcane Gate also targets two unoccupied squares.  Therefore, you cannot put a portal directly under a creature, and you might be prevented by a DM from putting a portal underneath a large, heavy object.

I think we can safely get at least a full fall out of comboing this with forced movement, a slide or a push, but I don't think we can develop a falling loop.  Still, you can get a full 20 square fall for 10d10 damage on a successful forced movement power and a failed save (per the DMG, creatures get a save to end forced movement that would cause them damage), which is not a bad use at all.

You still can't force them through it.  They choose whether the portal activates or not.  Why is this not abundantly clear?  *Can*, not *must*.
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Skeeve

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Re: Welcome to the Aperture Science Enrichment Center
« Reply #26 on: June 06, 2008, 01:33:36 PM »
You still can't force them through it.  They choose whether the portal activates or not.  Why is this not abundantly clear?  *Can*, not *must*.

The point of debate is not whether someone who enters the square of the rift *has* to enter the portal.  Rather, they're coming from the point of view that the person who is forcing the movement makes the decision, not the person who is being moved.

Think of it like this - the arcane gate power forms a hole in space that leads somewhere else.  A five foot square is a big place, so if you enter the square you can choose to go around it or go through it without penalty.  But if Fighter A is pushing Kobold B, there's no real reason why A can't choose to push the Kobold through the hole or around it.  If it's forced movement, Fighter A makes the choice, 'cause he's doing the forcing.

Squirrelloid

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Re: Welcome to the Aperture Science Enrichment Center
« Reply #27 on: June 06, 2008, 01:44:45 PM »
You still can't force them through it.  They choose whether the portal activates or not.  Why is this not abundantly clear?  *Can*, not *must*.

The point of debate is not whether someone who enters the square of the rift *has* to enter the portal.  Rather, they're coming from the point of view that the person who is forcing the movement makes the decision, not the person who is being moved.

Think of it like this - the arcane gate power forms a hole in space that leads somewhere else.  A five foot square is a big place, so if you enter the square you can choose to go around it or go through it without penalty.  But if Fighter A is pushing Kobold B, there's no real reason why A can't choose to push the Kobold through the hole or around it.  If it's forced movement, Fighter A makes the choice, 'cause he's doing the forcing.

You're making assumptions about what the portal is like.  The RAW doesn't support them.  For all we know, it's closed unless a creature wills it open and he just waltzes through the space like normal otherwise.

The rule text only says that he can go through, as in he may choose to do so but is by no means obligated to do so.  There is no rules text to suggest otherwise.  Ergo, it works exactly as written.

If you want to discuss houserules, optimization is not the forum for it.  And that's exactly what you're talking about, a houserule.  Remember, logic or common sense has no place here, only the text as written.
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phelanarcetus

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Re: Welcome to the Aperture Science Enrichment Center
« Reply #28 on: June 06, 2008, 03:16:46 PM »
The RAW definitely indicates that the physical capability to utilize the portal to go from square A to square B as though they were adjacent to each other exists.  Effectively, A and B have 9 adjacent squares each, instead of 8 each.

I agree that nothing in the power description indicates orientation of the portals, location within the squares, or how they might interact with forced movement.  There is also no indication how might interact with larger creatures, for that matter.  The power certainly does not deny things like forced movement.

It definitely comes down to DM interpretation, at least until a FAQ or errata clarifies with an official ruling.  My intent had been primarily to debunk the idea of creating the infinitely long fall, and to provide what I think I would allow as a counterexample.  Which is that you can use forced movement to put someone through the portal, but they get a save just as if you were pushing them off a cliff or into lava.  And that would be the upper bound of allowable, in my book.

cdrcjsn

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Re: Welcome to the Aperture Science Enrichment Center
« Reply #29 on: June 06, 2008, 04:45:12 PM »
The spell can be viewed as:

A) Big gaping hole in reality between two spots that is easy to move between and requires only movement, not conscious will to move through
B)  A magical effect localized in the squares involved that allows movement by conscious will

People trying to use forced movement is advocating A.

The fact that the rift only affects creatures and implies conscious use ("can move") strongly suggests B.

Considering that B is actually more balanced, I suggest that we all agree that B is the proper way of looking at things, since the rule as intended is that it's not supposed to be an attack spell (reason that it's a Utility power and not an Encounter or Daily Attack power) and the rules as written strongly implies it.

I don't know why, but this remind me of a player trying to sneak attack with a Light spell, since you know, it's a touch spell and the FAQ says you can sneak attack with touch spells...

Infinitive

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Re: Welcome to the Aperture Science Enrichment Center
« Reply #30 on: June 06, 2008, 05:14:41 PM »
The spell can be viewed as:

A) Big gaping hole in reality between two spots that is easy to move between and requires only movement, not conscious will to move through
B)  A magical effect localized in the squares involved that allows movement by conscious will

People trying to use forced movement is advocating A.

The fact that the rift only affects creatures and implies conscious use ("can move") strongly suggests B.

Well, it must be noted that any time someone relies on interpretation of a wording, rather than the wording itself, any conclusion that is drawn therefrom cannot be absolute.  I posted my interpretation of what the rules seem to allow previously, and you have posted yours.  Further, no matter how hard we each argue, we might as well be shouting into the wind (which is also why I had withdrawn from the fight previously); until and unless WotC makes an official clarification and/or errata, this one is clearly within the realm of DM fiat.  As I noted before, YMMV.

Considering that B is actually more balanced, I suggest that we all agree that B is the proper way of looking at things, since the rule as intended is that it's not supposed to be an attack spell (reason that it's a Utility power and not an Encounter or Daily Attack power) and the rules as written strongly implies it.

Again, I don't want to make this fight any bigger, but it has to be noted that any time a non-developer/designer measures something against their personal standard of what is and is not "balanced" (an abstract concept comprised of standards that varies from player to player, with no functional universal meaning), it frankly means little.  You can't run on inference in regards to the rules; it either functions one way or it functions another, and I could equal any amount of inference that you could posit; the DM at each table can make any necessary determinations in regards to the combat functionality of this ability.

My point is, and always has been, this is something that the rules seem to allow.  I acknowledged sticking points in the theory at every point, and I still think it's more likely that they're the result of an envisioned usage that we are going far beyond than it is to be a carefully and meticulously balanced functionality (were this the case, I suspect strongly that there would be additional rules notes tied into this spell; again, see Gate's wording from 3.5).

Now, just to make a counterpoint on the balancing of this ability (assuming that my falling loop trick works), note this math: the spell has a 50% chance to deal 0 damage, instead only knocking its target prone (since each iteration, plus the first, allows a saving throw to avoid falling further).  It has a 25% chance to deal 2d10 damage, a 12.5% chance of dealing 4d10 damage, a 6.25% chance of dealing 6d10 damage, a 3.125% chance of dealing 8d10 damage, and only a 1.5625% chance of dealing the full 10d10 damage possible; the average damage of the trick, therefore, is going to be something on the order of 2.5d10 plus prone, which isn't exactly a gamebreaker.  Like Steel Cascade (which, I might note, has already been shown to allow a PC to oneshot Orcus, the most powerful monster in the MM), it has the potential to deal a quite a lot of damage, but isn't actually that likely to achieve it without substantial manipulation.

I don't know why, but this remind me of a player trying to sneak attack with a Light spell, since you know, it's a touch spell and the FAQ says you can sneak attack with touch spells...

Hrmm... actually, I think that this is a poor example for you, since the rules for 3.5 (not just the FAQ) explicitly allow it; the PHB has a specific entry about sneak attack enabling based on touch-based sources that do not deal damage.  In the case that the source ability deals no damage, sneak attack is still applied, if all normal sneak attack conditions are met, and its type is altered to match the type of the spell or ability that is enabling it (even if that spell or ability deals no damage whatsoever).  For example, you can sneak attack with Targeting Ray (SpC), a ray spell whose only effect is to give subsequent bonuses to hit for your allies; the advantage of doing so is that it converts your Sneak Attack dice into untyped damage, that thereby bypasses pretty much all resistances and immunities (though your damage pool is going to likely be lower than it otherwise might).  Using Light is kind of silly, though.  You might as well just punch the guy and get your extra 1d3 unarmed nonlethal.

Regardless, shouting back and forth isn't really going to answer anyone else's questions, so unless anyone comes up with some compelling new argument for allowed or disallowed functionality on this trick based on the rules, I propose that we leave it lie at "Ask your DM if you want to do this."
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cdrcjsn

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Re: Welcome to the Aperture Science Enrichment Center
« Reply #31 on: June 06, 2008, 05:22:23 PM »
Well, it must be noted that any time someone relies on interpretation of a wording, rather than the wording itself, any conclusion that is drawn therefrom cannot be absolute.  I posted my interpretation of what the rules seem to allow previously, and you have posted yours.  Further, no matter how hard we each argue, we might as well be shouting into the wind (which is also why I had withdrawn from the fight previously); until and unless WotC makes an official clarification and/or errata, this one is clearly within the realm of DM fiat.  As I noted before, YMMV.

Normally I'd agree with you, but that isn't the case here.

The developer intent here is obvious.  It's a Utility power.  By definition that means it's a power that is useful in combat but isn't used in an attack.

Trying to use it as an attack when there's an alternate and equally valid rules interpretation is going against that intent.

Skeeve

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Re: Welcome to the Aperture Science Enrichment Center
« Reply #32 on: June 06, 2008, 05:28:16 PM »
If you want to discuss houserules, optimization is not the forum for it.  And that's exactly what you're talking about, a houserule.  Remember, logic or common sense has no place here, only the text as written.

Yeah, that's my bad - I thought we were in the other 4e forum for some reason.

However, my opinion is still that the person forcing the movement can choose the other end of the portal as a legal square to move to.  It says that any creature in the target square can move to the other target square - it doesn't say anything about not being able to be forced to do it.

Squirrelloid

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Re: Welcome to the Aperture Science Enrichment Center
« Reply #33 on: June 06, 2008, 05:48:09 PM »
If you want to discuss houserules, optimization is not the forum for it.  And that's exactly what you're talking about, a houserule.  Remember, logic or common sense has no place here, only the text as written.

Yeah, that's my bad - I thought we were in the other 4e forum for some reason.

However, my opinion is still that the person forcing the movement can choose the other end of the portal as a legal square to move to.  It says that any creature in the target square can move to the other target square - it doesn't say anything about not being able to be forced to do it.

Given the person forcing movement enters the square after the forced, i'd think he leaves the forced creature just past the portal he teleports through should be do this.  Just because he chooses to go through the portal doesn't mean the target he was pushing does.

If the creature did choose to be teleported, you couldn't actually keep pushing it, because the other portal square would be occupied, and thus you couldn't go through it.
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Skeeve

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Re: Welcome to the Aperture Science Enrichment Center
« Reply #34 on: June 06, 2008, 05:59:40 PM »
Given the person forcing movement enters the square after the forced, i'd think he leaves the forced creature just past the portal he teleports through should be do this.  Just because he chooses to go through the portal doesn't mean the target he was pushing does.

Where did you see this?  I haven't been able to find anything about it in the description of 'Push, Pull, and Slide' that says the forcer has to move with the forcee.  And there are powers that don't specify that either - for example, the rogue attacks Positioning Strike (L1), Tornado Strike (L13), and Flying Foe (L19) all let the forcer move a foe multiple squares and make no mention of having to move with them.

Squirrelloid

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Re: Welcome to the Aperture Science Enrichment Center
« Reply #35 on: June 06, 2008, 06:03:03 PM »
Given the person forcing movement enters the square after the forced, i'd think he leaves the forced creature just past the portal he teleports through should be do this.  Just because he chooses to go through the portal doesn't mean the target he was pushing does.

Where did you see this?  I haven't been able to find anything about it in the description of 'Push, Pull, and Slide' that says the forcer has to move with the forcee.  And there are powers that don't specify that either - for example, the rogue attacks Positioning Strike (L1), Tornado Strike (L13), and Flying Foe (L19) all let the forcer move a foe multiple squares and make no mention of having to move with them.

Sorry, I read 'choose the other end of the portal as a legal square to move to' as being for yourself, because you can only choose to activate the portal for yourself.  Why would you be able to move another creature through the portal when you can't throw a stone through the portal?
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Skeeve

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Re: Welcome to the Aperture Science Enrichment Center
« Reply #36 on: June 06, 2008, 06:16:57 PM »
Sorry, I read 'choose the other end of the portal as a legal square to move to' as being for yourself, because you can only choose to activate the portal for yourself.  Why would you be able to move another creature through the portal when you can't throw a stone through the portal?

Well, the problem with that is that it doesn't actually say that you can only choose to activate the portal for yourself.  That's kind of what we're debating, isn't it?  If we're in a set of five-foot wide corridors, and I slide you into a T-intersection, you can go left, so I can push you left, and you can go right, so I can push you right, and if there's an Arcane Gate with both target squares there, you can go to the other end of the Arcane Gate, and don't I see any language in either the description of Arcane Gate or in the descriptions of 'Push, Pull, and Slide' that actually prevents me from sliding you there.

As far as not being able to throw stones through the portal, I seem to recall a post earlier in the thread about how logic and common sense interact with the optimization forum.

Squirrelloid

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Re: Welcome to the Aperture Science Enrichment Center
« Reply #37 on: June 06, 2008, 06:19:49 PM »
Sorry, I read 'choose the other end of the portal as a legal square to move to' as being for yourself, because you can only choose to activate the portal for yourself.  Why would you be able to move another creature through the portal when you can't throw a stone through the portal?

Well, the problem with that is that it doesn't actually say that you can only choose to activate the portal for yourself.  That's kind of what we're debating, isn't it?  If we're in a set of five-foot wide corridors, and I slide you into a T-intersection, you can go left, so I can push you left, and you can go right, so I can push you right, and if there's an Arcane Gate with both target squares there, you can go to the other end of the Arcane Gate, and don't I see any language in either the description of Arcane Gate or in the descriptions of 'Push, Pull, and Slide' that actually prevents me from sliding you there.

As far as not being able to throw stones through the portal, I seem to recall a post earlier in the thread about how logic and common sense interact with the optimization forum.

"Any creature that enters one of the target squares can move to the other target square as if it were adjacent to that square."

You can only do what the text allows you to do.  The creature who enters the square can move to the other square as if they were adjacent.  It never says a creature pushing a creature into the target square can push it into the other square.  The text only allows the creature who enters the square to make the decision, therefore only the creature entering the square can do so.

Just because the text *doesn't* say something doesn't mean it isn't prohibited.  The text must *specifically allow* for the action in question, something it fails to do in this case.
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Skeeve

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Re: Welcome to the Aperture Science Enrichment Center
« Reply #38 on: June 06, 2008, 07:45:13 PM »


You can only do what the text allows you to do.  The creature who enters the square can move to the other square as if they were adjacent.  It never says a creature pushing a creature into the target square can push it into the other square.  The text only allows the creature who enters the square to make the decision, therefore only the creature entering the square can do so.

I bolded the part of your reasoning that I specifically disagree with.  Nothing in the text of Arcane Gate's effect specifically says 'only the creature who enters the square makes the decision to pass through the gate'.

Quote from: ArcaneGate'sText
"Any creature that enters one of the target squares can move to the other target square as if it were adjacent to that square."

You read 'can' and interpret it, if I understand your position correctly, as 'the creature can choose to'; that is, an active effort of will is required to use the portal, which is a reasonable interpretation but not directly supported by the text.  I read 'can' and interpret it as 'it is a possibility to'.  A creature can move from Portal Square A to Portal Square B.  Sliding is movement, it's just movement that the creature being moved has no control over.  If square A is adjacent to square B, a creature can be slid there.  Arcane Gate makes the two squares adjacent.  Therefore, a creature can be slid from Portal Square A to Portal Square B.

There is some ambiguity in the text.  Either position is a reasonable one to take on the functioning of the power.  But it's not such a cut and dry read that there is only one way to interpret the text.

Squirrelloid

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Re: Welcome to the Aperture Science Enrichment Center
« Reply #39 on: June 06, 2008, 08:04:39 PM »
If you can push a creature through it you could also push a stone through it.  Except you can't.  Clearly there isn't just an open doorway that things which enter the square can move through, or it would apply to *anything* entering the square and not just creatures.  That it is limited to creatures is strong indication that 'can' represents an active choice on the creature's part, as that's the one thing creatures can do which objects can't.
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