Author Topic: Factotum for 4th-level party  (Read 4042 times)

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JaronK

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Re: Factotum for 4th-level party
« Reply #20 on: August 23, 2009, 03:00:06 PM »
Standard class seems to mean base class in the DMG.

Even if it's only talking about PHB classes, that would still give you Sorcerer casting and Fighter feats.  

But SorO, quit using wierd quizes.  You can just write the actual passages.  It's easier, doesn't look arrogant, and you don't look nearly as foolish when you miss something (in this case, the DMG also talks about "standard classes," and gives them the same definition as "base classes").   I still think Standard Class means base class... remember that all books assume you only have PHB, DMG, and MM as far as examples are concerned (and it's supposed to assume that for all purposes, but a few mess that up, like Heroes of Horror referencing Fiend Folio in the Dread Necromancer entry).  Now, 175 of the DMG also refers to "standard classes" and is talking about the PHB, but since no other books with base classes had been written yet, that doesn't really say much.   The DMG seems to use "Standard Classes" interchangeably with "Basic Classes" further indicating that it probably just means base classes.  In fact page 176 of the DMG straight up defines "Base Class" as one of the eleven classes in the PHB.

So yes, the page 31 entry is a bit oddball, but doesn't specifically say that the newer classes that compliment the standard classes in the PHB are not also standard classes.  Meanwhile, the DMG specifically does defined "base classes" as being the ones in the PHB, and then use "standard classes" and "basic classes" to mean the same thing, though at the time of writing the PHB was the only book with base classes in it.

As for spellcasting, Mad Linguist nailed it, so I have little to add to that, except to say that he forgot the fourth catagory, natural abilities.  Natural abilities are basic physical functionality abilities like your movement speed, natural attacks, natural armor, etc... stuff defined by your form, effectively.  Page 180 of the PHB gives a better definition than that, but that's how it's used.  

JaronK
« Last Edit: August 23, 2009, 03:11:52 PM by JaronK »

SorO_Lost

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Re: Factotum for 4th-level party
« Reply #21 on: August 24, 2009, 01:19:33 AM »
Standard class seems to mean base class in the DMG.

Even if it's only talking about PHB classes, that would still give you Sorcerer casting and Fighter feats.  

But SorO, quit using wierd quizes.  You can just write the actual passages.  It's easier, doesn't look arrogant, and you don't look nearly as foolish when you miss something (in this case, the DMG also talks about "standard classes," and gives them the same definition as "base classes").
I like indirect questions when I don't directly have a point/stance but I'm looking for one.

Also, a few books reference another book outside of Core. Mostly in spells and feats though. I wish I could think of an example but I can't outside of the Elder Evil's evil feat section or the Dungeonscape and PHBII.

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So yes, the page 31 entry is a bit oddball, but doesn't specifically say that the newer classes that compliment the standard classes in the PHB are not also standard classes.
 Strict omitence(sp) of calling them a standard class suggests they are not. D&D isn't about defining what's not, but what is. DMs handle the rest.

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As for spellcasting, Mad Linguist nailed it, so I have little to add to that, except to say that he forgot the fourth catagory, natural abilities.  Natural abilities are basic physical functionality abilities like your movement speed, natural attacks, natural armor, etc... stuff defined by your form, effectively.  Page 180 of the PHB gives a better definition than that, but that's how it's used.
Which fits the abrakadabra/dance thing I mentioned. Anyone can mimic the somantic and verbal requirements to cast a spell (which you guys have proven), so why can't the fighter apon doing that cast anything?
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JaronK

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Re: Factotum for 4th-level party
« Reply #22 on: August 24, 2009, 03:05:03 AM »
Strict omitence(sp) of calling them a standard class suggests they are not. D&D isn't about defining what's not, but what is. DMs handle the rest.

It doesn't say one set is standard and one isn't.  If I say "I'm adding three new technicians to compliment the existing six audio technicians" does that mean the three new technicians are not audio technicians?  It doesn't, and that's pretty much the same phrasing... in fact, it suggests they are.  Anyway, the point is the DMG makes it clear that "Standard Classes" and "Basic Classes" and "Base Classes" all mean the same thing, even if the DMG definition of Base Classes is very wonky. 

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Which fits the abrakadabra/dance thing I mentioned. Anyone can mimic the somantic and verbal requirements to cast a spell (which you guys have proven), so why can't the fighter apon doing that cast anything?

For the same reason a Wizard can't suddenly increase his BAB to fighter levels by faking the motions a Fighter goes through?  I dunno, they just don't have that ability.  The ability is rather extraordinary, don't you think?

JaronK

Negative Zero

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Re: Factotum for 4th-level party
« Reply #23 on: August 24, 2009, 03:23:34 AM »
Of course, casting a spell is actually a mental process, and the somatic and verbal components are mnemonic devices more than anything else.

But that's flavor text.

JaronK

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Re: Factotum for 4th-level party
« Reply #24 on: August 24, 2009, 03:25:56 AM »
Indeed.  But the point is, the PHB on 180 strongly implies that the ability to cast spells is Ex (because Natural Abilities are only those granted by your physical form, and both Spell Like and Su abilities are defined by how they're NOT spells, while the ability to cast spells itself could be Ex), and then MMV goes ahead and actually defines them as such.

Anyway, all of this is irrelevant, since we're talking about a Factotum 4 here.

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KellKheraptis

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Re: Factotum for 4th-level party
« Reply #25 on: August 24, 2009, 07:05:38 AM »
Indeed.  But the point is, the PHB on 180 strongly implies that the ability to cast spells is Ex (because Natural Abilities are only those granted by your physical form, and both Spell Like and Su abilities are defined by how they're NOT spells, while the ability to cast spells itself could be Ex), and then MMV goes ahead and actually defines them as such.

Anyway, all of this is irrelevant, since we're talking about a Factotum 4 here.

JaronK

For the record, lets not forget that if you have Sanctum Spell available, there's nothing stopping a 19th level Factotem from using 9th level spells, so long as they declare a sanctum in a hurry (or have one and a prepped Acorn from a previous day).  All spells ever on tap is wicked flexible IMHO, and could be motivation to take the class to 20 (hell, especially if you have IF).
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Mushroom Ninja

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Re: Factotum for 4th-level party
« Reply #26 on: August 24, 2009, 11:21:14 AM »
For the record, lets not forget that if you have Sanctum Spell available, there's nothing stopping a 19th level Factotem from using 9th level spells, so long as they declare a sanctum in a hurry (or have one and a prepped Acorn from a previous day).  All spells ever on tap is wicked flexible IMHO, and could be motivation to take the class to 20 (hell, especially if you have IF).

What's Sanctum Spell from?

JaronK

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Re: Factotum for 4th-level party
« Reply #27 on: August 24, 2009, 12:13:14 PM »
For the record, lets not forget that if you have Sanctum Spell available, there's nothing stopping a 19th level Factotem from using 9th level spells, so long as they declare a sanctum in a hurry (or have one and a prepped Acorn from a previous day).  All spells ever on tap is wicked flexible IMHO, and could be motivation to take the class to 20 (hell, especially if you have IF).

Actually, you don't need that.  The ability itself must be gained before 15, but you get the ability as a member of the class of your Factotum level.  Sorcerers get spells at level 1, so a Factotum can use that, and a 19th level Factotum gets the spells of a 19th level Sorcerer.  You could also get casting from Favored Souls, Dread Necromancers, Warmages, Beguilers, and so on.  Not quite every spell ever, but a lot of them.

JaronK