Author Topic: CO Compilation : Kell's Builds  (Read 26185 times)

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KellKheraptis

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Re: CO Compilation : Kell's Builds
« Reply #80 on: September 27, 2009, 12:52:21 AM »
Am I missing something here? How are you persisting Spell Engine, which has a range of close, and therefore doesn't qualify for persist spell?

Anyway, my point for the pros and cons thing was just that since the three are so close in power, that the "Ultimate" one is greatly influenced by how one measures the small details in the differences between them. Was I sufficiently accurate in my analysis of the two at least?

Incantatrix trick.  You apply a metamagic feat to "a persistent magical effect."  You could persist Veils with that, even.  That's why I try to get 3 levels in with every build I make.
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Negative Zero

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Re: CO Compilation : Kell's Builds
« Reply #81 on: September 27, 2009, 01:04:39 AM »
I'm pretty sure it still has to be a valid target for the metamagic.

Archmage Joda

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Re: CO Compilation : Kell's Builds
« Reply #82 on: September 27, 2009, 01:08:45 AM »
That's what I've always thought. Sure, the text of the ability doesn't say one way or the other outright, but I always interpreted "apply a metamagic feat she knows" as meaning that you'd have to be able to apply the feat in the normal way if you had a sufficiently high level spell slot.

Just out of my own curiosity as an aside, while the war weaver one seems to come out on top with a group, which one takes home the gold, in your opinion, without a party around? (Yes, I know D&D is primarily a party based thing, this is just for my own curious musings)

Another aside: What changes need to occur for the "ToS" legal version? I assume "ToS" refers to the Test of Spite on Giantitp.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2009, 01:12:18 AM by Archmage Joda »
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KellKheraptis

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Re: CO Compilation : Kell's Builds
« Reply #83 on: September 27, 2009, 01:15:59 AM »
That's what I've always thought. Sure, the text of the ability doesn't say one way or the other outright, but I always interpreted "apply a metamagic feat she knows" as meaning that you'd have to be able to apply the feat in the normal way if you had a sufficiently high level spell slot.

Just out of my own curiosity as an aside, while the war weaver one seems to come out on top with a group, which one takes home the gold, in your opinion, without a party around? (Yes, I know D&D is primarily a party based thing, this is just for my own curious musings)

Bear in mind all those buffs also go on you at the same time.  And even if the DM doesn't allow the Incantatrix trick (though by RAW of the ability, it supersedes the usual rules governing metamagic), it's easy enough to craft an item that does it 1/day or more.  Now, the big differences between the War weaver and the other two are more buffs up initially with 100% guarantee of going first, and in return fewer spell slots available.  Being able to get 9+ spells off in round 1 is BIG.

EDIT : And yeah, ToS is Test of Spite on GitP.  Though hopefully he brings it here...

I know Incantatrix is outright banned.  I would imagine Wizard 5/War Weaver 5/Spellguard of Silverymoon 5/Legacy Champion 5, assuming none of those are banned.  Saves a couple feats too.  Now since he's a proponent of Reach/Ocular to target the tapestry, sub out SgoS for Halruuan Elder 5, and you're done.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2009, 01:20:06 AM by KellKheraptis »
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Re: CO Compilation : Kell's Builds
« Reply #84 on: September 27, 2009, 01:23:15 AM »
So for a solo deal the war weaver contributes more by Quiescent Weaving (I must admit, as much as I like playing with shadowcraft, Quiescent Weaving makes me smile)? As for the spell slots, well, I don't see that small difference as being a big deal, especially if you play with arcane manipulation or whatever that feat is called and circle magic.

I do hope that the ToS version accomplishes the mission if submitted. *goes off to check out Test of Spite*

Edit: Well, none of the PrCs used in that version are banned in ToS, and it says nothing about circle magic, although it seems to have less utility under the rules of it.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2009, 01:35:24 AM by Archmage Joda »
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KellKheraptis

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Re: CO Compilation : Kell's Builds
« Reply #85 on: September 27, 2009, 01:38:43 AM »
So for a solo deal the war weaver contributes more by Quiescent Weaving (I must admit, as much as I like playing with shadowcraft, Quiescent Weaving makes me smile)? As for the spell slots, well, I don't see that small difference as being a big deal, especially if you play with arcane manipulation or whatever that feat is called and circle magic.

I do hope that the ToS version accomplishes the mission if submitted. *goes off to check out Test of Spite*

Edit: Well, none of the PrCs used in that version are banned in ToS, and it says nothing about circle magic, although it seems to have less utility under the rules of it.

Actually, I think my WW build specifically got Sims banned, or will soon, after talking with Doc Rock on YIM :P
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Re: CO Compilation : Kell's Builds
« Reply #86 on: September 27, 2009, 01:43:44 AM »
Then with that in mind, does that mean no supercharged circle mage in test of spite after all? Also, I would like, once and for all, for the whole of the reason for the switch to War Weaver explained. I get how it rocks with a group, but I don't completely understand, aside from multispell dropping through quiescent weave, how it's just as good in something like Test of Spite, where it's just you and maybe someone else. Mostly I can't really think of 8 spells to drop on myself that can't be persisted.
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KellKheraptis

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Re: CO Compilation : Kell's Builds
« Reply #87 on: September 27, 2009, 01:52:02 AM »
Then with that in mind, does that mean no supercharged circle mage in test of spite after all? Also, I would like, once and for all, for the whole of the reason for the switch to War Weaver explained. I get how it rocks with a group, but I don't completely understand, aside from multispell dropping through quiescent weave, how it's just as good in something like Test of Spite, where it's just you and maybe someone else. Mostly I can't really think of 8 spells to drop on myself that can't be persisted.

I think for me it all comes down to economy and preparation.  There is no other class that can be "ready" in a moment's notice like a War Weaver.  And further, you can persist all you want at the beginning of the day, and then fill the weave with stuff like GMA, Gr Blink, Gr Mirror Image, the kind of stuff that's useful in combat, and if the need arises, blow the weave and there ya go, instant unhittable target.  My particular one just so happens to have constant mind blank, displacement, feather fall, mage hand/open/close, cunning, et al, so has even less a burden on defensive/offensive buffs he needs to persist, and even more options for customization on the Tapestry.  Not to mention it acts as a move-action contingency of sorts.
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PhaedrusXY

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Re: CO Compilation : Kell's Builds
« Reply #88 on: September 27, 2009, 01:52:37 AM »
Then with that in mind, does that mean no supercharged circle mage in test of spite after all? Also, I would like, once and for all, for the whole of the reason for the switch to War Weaver explained. I get how it rocks with a group, but I don't completely understand, aside from multispell dropping through quiescent weave, how it's just as good in something like Test of Spite, where it's just you and maybe someone else. Mostly I can't really think of 8 spells to drop on myself that can't be persisted.
How are you going to persist 8 spells if Incantatrix is banned?
[spoiler]
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[/spoiler]

Archmage Joda

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Re: CO Compilation : Kell's Builds
« Reply #89 on: September 27, 2009, 02:03:35 AM »
Well, I meant in a solo or duo situation in general, like one which does have incantatrix, and was just using Test of Spite as an example, but I didn't really think through that example. Sorry if my incoherence caused confusion.
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KellKheraptis

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Re: CO Compilation : Kell's Builds
« Reply #90 on: September 27, 2009, 02:05:37 AM »
Well, I meant in a solo or duo situation in general, like one which does have incantatrix, and was just using Test of Spite as an example, but I didn't really think through that example. Sorry if my incoherence caused confusion.

No worries, I knew what you meant, and in ToS where Incantatrix is banned, even more so.  It's only 1 move action to activate all those buffs that you'd normally persist with Incantatrix.  If it's available, you've got 7 more spells available, or 8 with the full compliment of LC levels.
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Archmage Joda

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Re: CO Compilation : Kell's Builds
« Reply #91 on: September 27, 2009, 03:10:20 AM »
To be honest, I almost felt I was grasping with some of my pros and cons earlier. What, from your view does the SCM version have over the other two? Or maybe your own rendition of the pros and cons of the three?
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KellKheraptis

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Re: CO Compilation : Kell's Builds
« Reply #92 on: September 27, 2009, 04:33:01 AM »
Something like this :

Focused Transmuter Edition (either HalEld or Red Wiz):
Pros-
-Access to all spells through one school (so Red Wizard prefered to cash in on the bonuses from that)
-0 lost casting progression
-Spontaneous access through Spell Engine abuse, and/or at will miracle
-Mythal capable

Cons-
-Less spontaneous capabilities (i.e. none native outside of DCFS)
-No epic spell capability unless built into the mythal
-Requires Savage Species for at will miracle
-Relies upon cheese with a ToAL
-Same limits on spells/round as any other caster (1 standard, 1 quickened, possibly one additional as an immediate, borrowing against next round)

Focused Illusionist Shadowcraft Mage edition:
Pros-
-Casting high level spells from low level slots
-Spontaneous casting without needing an item or Profession (Diplomat)
-Sidesteps Casting Time and Material Components on spells like Major Creation and Genesis
-Easy Access to Epic spells such as mythals
-More automatically applied metamagic (as everything starts out as a Silent Image)

Cons-
-Feat Tight until DCFS antics come in
-Same limits on spells/round as any other caster (1 standard, 1 quickened, possibly one additional as an immediate, borrowing against next round)
-Universally relies upon SR, though this is somewhat mitigated by having ungodly CL (which all three have)

Elven War Weaver Incantaluuran:
Pros-
-Mass self and party buff via 7-8 spells cast into the tapestry and left latent until needed (can even be left in overnight)
-Not shackled to the same action routine, as they add in those 7-8 spells as a move action, and still can move via Ride on a Phantom Steed
-CL 40 means the natural buffing nature of the War Weaver is augmented even more by being nigh impossible to dispel
-"Offensive tapestry" via Reach Spell (also used to get usually unusable spells into the normal tapestry) and Chain Spell, and the feats/abilities to mitigate their cost to nil.
-Ability to sell out all else to action economy and initiative (elven substitution with a hummingbird)

Cons-
-Two lost levels of progression
-A lot more bookwork needed, as cranking those slots meant for buffing up to 20th level slots means no tapestry for them
-Relies upon creation of a Legacy Item

In Summary
In terms of raw breakthrough power, the Red Wizard Transmuter has the highest CL of the three, and the highest spell penetration.  His nukes will be that much more nuclear, and he's tied with the SCM for raw number of slots available to heighten to 20th level.  He won't have quite the metamagic reduction the other two will have though, as they both use Halruuan Elder.

The Shadowcraft Mage is undeniably the most versatile, having multiple ways of getting shadow miracles and play godbuilder in ways a Cheater only dreams of.  They've also got the easiest path to epic spells pre-epic, this side of koboldy-pun.  Oh, and they can burn their spellbook, and not miss a single page.

Finally, the Elven Weaver will be both his own and his party's best friend, as he can uberbuff the lot of them with just one move action, and from all the different factors contributing, he's going first.  Even rolling a 1, with pretty standard gear he'd be getting at least a 25, assuming a 20 dex after buffs, and with standard initiative boosting gear.  Add 4 more if Belt of Battle and Sandals of the Vagabond are included.  And that's on a 1 :)  He has fewer raw spell slots, but the same CL as the SCM and the same capability in boosting his slots to 20th level, though some of them won't be going that high (thus saving time) to facilitate stocking the tapestry.  Between all the passives from his Legacy Toy, his head start on the action arms race, and his extra missle in the Tapestry, IMHO he's got it.  While not as easily Epic Spell endowed as the SCM, and lacking a few CL on the Red Wizard, he's got the one advantage that trumps all of them, and that's more he can do at once.
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Archmage Joda

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Re: CO Compilation : Kell's Builds
« Reply #93 on: September 28, 2009, 06:53:41 PM »
A thought that just occurred: the shadowcraft mage could use a shadow epic spell to make a copy of the "Crown of Vermin" spell in the epic srd and then establish a hivemind, giving a bit more action economy and extreme sorcerer casting as well, could it not?
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PhaedrusXY

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Re: CO Compilation : Kell's Builds
« Reply #94 on: September 28, 2009, 06:56:03 PM »
A thought that just occurred: the shadowcraft mage could use a shadow epic spell to make a copy of the "Crown of Vermin" spell in the epic srd and then establish a hivemind, giving a bit more action economy and extreme sorcerer casting as well, could it not?
Why not just use Summon Swarm, though?  :p
[spoiler]
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Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
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[/spoiler]

Archmage Joda

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Re: CO Compilation : Kell's Builds
« Reply #95 on: September 28, 2009, 07:07:35 PM »
Duration, mostly. Also because I had a brain failure and forgot about sonorous hum, in spite of the fact that I was talking about a shadowcraft mage. Also, Crown of Vermin the caster is explicitly immune to, and you get 1000 units of vermin per casting, which can make for some mighty big swarms.

My main issue is with actually forming the hivemind, as I recall Dark Speech does hivemind, but I can't remember what the limitation is, and I don't have the most recent book to give dark speech rules.
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KellKheraptis

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Re: CO Compilation : Kell's Builds
« Reply #96 on: September 28, 2009, 07:18:46 PM »
Duration, mostly. Also because I had a brain failure and forgot about sonorous hum, in spite of the fact that I was talking about a shadowcraft mage. Also, Crown of Vermin the caster is explicitly immune to, and you get 1000 units of vermin per casting, which can make for some mighty big swarms.

My main issue is with actually forming the hivemind, as I recall Dark Speech does hivemind, but I can't remember what the limitation is, and I don't have the most recent book to give dark speech rules.

While you're contemplating (I'm also AFB, but I knew of the trick from Warlocks being able to do it at like...level 1), check out Dragon #357.  Eidetic Spellcasting - give up familiar and scribe scroll, never need a spellbook again.  Whoa.
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Archmage Joda

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Re: CO Compilation : Kell's Builds
« Reply #97 on: September 28, 2009, 07:46:29 PM »
Yeah, I know about that feature. I used it in a short lived game once. Usually I find that there's something else I wanna trade my familiar and/or scribe scroll for (this is of course because my DM is usually hesitant to give me a hummingbird familiar after the last campaign I used one in in which I was always the first one to go)

I found the 3.5 update of dark speech in Fiendish Codex 1. It seems to have the limitations of doing Con damage each time (not that big a deal in the face of the previous mages), and also of working as the Suggestion spell (could pose a problem). Also, it's not clear whether it means that you can try to command the hivemind once per some length of time, or once and only once during the hivemind's existence. What other means of hivemind are there that don't require 10 levels of verminlord, if any?
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KellKheraptis

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Re: CO Compilation : Kell's Builds
« Reply #98 on: September 28, 2009, 09:35:06 PM »
All things considered, if we're going for infinite or NI spell slots, aren't we better served by going with Tainted Scholar?  Also, I read about something with Ardents having a way to keep psionic focus, potentially indefinitely, regardless of how many metaspionic feats they use.  Almost as good as my eternally prepared Arcane Swordsage Batman :P
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Archmage Joda

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Re: CO Compilation : Kell's Builds
« Reply #99 on: September 28, 2009, 10:07:52 PM »
The hivemind thing wasn't just for spell slots, it was also for getting more actions as the shadowcraft mage. Of course, that assumes that you'd be able to get your normal turns and also have the hive take actions.
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